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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
The tories have been in power the vast majority of the last 100 years in the UK
They have made huge feck ups and have had loads of times to sort it out
Yet welsh Labour are inept after 22 years ?
that is a generation Sludge. Whether we are talking UK, Wales or local council, we do need change of government and policies every 10-15 years at the very least - if anything to keep the parties on their toes.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dml1954
And almost 70% didn't vote Labour in 2019.
Er, that's why I said "with our voting system, that always happens no matter who wins". Also, with only ten million out of forty seven million eligible votes, Labour would have loved to have got more than thirty per cent of it but it was the what's in it for me party who had "almost 70 per cent" not voting for them.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
blue matt
Im not sure many truly thought that the NHS would get £350 K extra a week ( I dont know anyone who did anyway ), it did serve a purpose of getting people thinking about what money was going into the EU pot and where else it could be spent, so in that case it was job done
million not k
I know people who did, they were furious that this money that we had "wasted" on Europe and we could get it back to spend on the NHS.
They couldn't have said it any more clearly, that's what they were going to do.
Except it was all lies.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
Feedback
bollocks
Now which part of my earlier post do I rely on here :hehe:
"People get emotional because of Tory policies that have attacked minorities and created a wealth divide which has literally damaged people's lives. In comparison, your life has not really been damaged by a comment on here.
A greater level of respect should be shown to each other, but also that needs to come from the powerful to those without power as well."
It's not rubbish though. For example, you've just been locked in your homes for most of the year and adults not already in a couple banned from having legal sex (authoritarian), the Ofcom approved verdict on Channel 4 employment was overturned in what appears to be a consequence of them showing too much opposition (attacks the opposition in any form), transgender people are under attack so much so that several members of the LGBTQ+ advisory board resigned and latest race report made on distorted facts (regressive).
Please show examples of them being liberal, progressive and fair to opposition in response.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
Feedback
just one point Bob, Welsh Labour have been in power for over 20 years, not a decade. You're quite right we need a change as living standards in Wales have fallen much further behind the rest of the UK.
I'm sure that's what you meant, because taking party politics out of it, what you say about the Tories in the UK context most definitely applies to Welsh Labour, who really are bereft of any ideas on how to make Wales a better place.
The increased profile of the Welsh Parliament since the Pandemic has been a bit of a godsend to Conservative voters because they can forget about the fact that Wales has a very limited kind of self Government with much of it dependant on how much Westminster allocates them and just start blaming Welsh Labour for everything. If we had the degree of independence you make it sound as if we had, there would be no point in there being a Plaid Cymru party.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
Rjk
million not k
I know people who did, they were furious that this money that we had "wasted" on Europe and we could get it back to spend on the NHS.
They couldn't have said it any more clearly, that's what they were going to do.
Except it was all lies.
Yes Million, i was replying elsewhere and had K on my mind
I am sure some did get sucked into the Bus Lie, though both campaigns were hardly that truthful
I stand by the comment that it got people think about the money we sent to the EU and where it could be spent instead, so the slogan / bus worked
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
Feedback
:hehe:
you need millions of votes to win an election, not hundreds of thousands. What good is it appealing to the rank and file if you can't appeal to the masses.
it is up to the Labour party to step up to the plate. At the present time, Labour are rather bereft of ideas
It helps to have an active and enthusiastic membership to campaign (phones, leaflets, doorstep, social media) in an election. It is not a good idea to attack and demoralise those members before an election so that a large proportion of them do not get involved. The hundreds of thousands speak to the millions. That's the way it works!
You are right - Labour is bereft of ideas. It wasn't a few years ago, and their ideas were popular. But what does Labour stand for under Starmer? Labour's campaign was ideas free. It had no identity. There was a thin pick and mix of national and local policies that totally failed to add up to a vision for the country or the local area.
The Anyone But Corbyn clique who now run the Labour Party really do need to 'step up to the plate'. Not for their own sakes, but for the millions who will pay the price for the Tory free run.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
Yes Million, i was replying elsewhere and had K on my mind
I am sure some did get sucked into the Bus Lie, though both campaigns were hardly that truthful
I stand by the comment that it got people think about the money we sent to the EU and where it could be spent instead, so the slogan / bus worked
it was a berefaced lie, they knew it at the time, but they knew there would be no consequence of making it. Can you give an example of a lie from the other side of the campaign?
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
the right wing of the tory party stoked up the inherent racism and xenophobia of the white working class
The white working classes aren't inherently racist. Do your research.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
it was a berefaced lie, they knew it at the time, but they knew there would be no consequence of making it. Can you give an example of a lie from the other side of the campaign?
I am sure you could google " Brexit Remain Lies " then you can see them all
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
I am sure you could google " Brexit Remain Lies " then you can see them all
You can't think of any then?
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
The white working classes aren't inherently racist. Do your research.
Huge support for far right parties in Oldham, Burnley , Bradford , Rochdale and massive change in previous Labour voting areas to conservative or further right
English Defence League , white , working class football fans
People arrested for racially aggravated public order offences don't tend to come from cyncoed and rhiwbina
Bernard Manning
Roy Chubby Brown
The black guy at work , we call him chalkie , its only a joke
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
And so what does a tory voter like about that party because, certainly on here, none of them ever talk about what makes them vote the way they do?
There are lots of reasons, why one would vote for the way they do (tory) and often fairly uncontroversial.
- Lower taxes
- strong stance against illegal immigration
- Less regulation for the self employed
- more business friendly
- Politics of aspiration
- Competition in education
- Perceived to be more on the 'side' of freedom of speech
I am not saying I agree or support all the above talking points, but I am trying to display a general theme, that surely you can see why a local business man or self-employed builder who can afford to send their kids to a private school would vote conservative, without necessarily being an evil person.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
chris lee
There are lots of reasons, why one would vote for the way they do (tory) and often fairly uncontroversial.
- Lower taxes
- strong stance against illegal immigration
- Less regulation for the self employed
- more business friendly
- Politics of aspiration
- Competition in education
- Perceived to be more on the 'side' of freedom of speech
I am not saying I agree or support all the above talking points, but I am trying to display a general theme, that surely you can see why a local business man or self-employed builder who can afford to send their kids to a private school would vote conservative, without necessarily being an evil person.
this strong stance against immigration bought them a lot of votes
But its as high as ever , so somebody's talking shit
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
you wouldn't believe that if you were one of those faithful to Abbott and her associates. She says it is the departure from Corbyn policies that caused it.
Blaming Corbyn for this is genuinely incredible. They won the seat twice under his leadership, with 2017 seeing them up 17% on 2015 while their 2019 result was still better than 2015, this is on Starmer.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
Rjk
Left wing politics is certainly not dead.
Just fractured
This result cannot be seen as a rejecton of left wing policies, as which of those has Starmer been pushing recently?
The main political issues I think are still Brexit and the pandemic.
Polls have also shown that left wing policies such as nationalisation are consistently popular across the UK, so the idea that left wing politics is dead is just clear nonsense. It would also ignore the 12.8m people who voted for Labour in 2017 and the 10.2m who voted in 2019 (more than voted for them in 2005, 2010 and 2015)
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
it was a berefaced lie, they knew it at the time, but they knew there would be no consequence of making it. Can you give an example of a lie from the other side of the campaign?
How can you state categorically that it was a lie when no one has yet had to prove it one way or the other.?
Until the end of the transition period which was about 5 months ago we were still paying into the EU. You talk as if we haven't done so for years . JOHNSON has said the NHS will get whatever money it needs to put things in order . I recall a figure of £1 billion being mentioned. That will be 3 years of 350 million . If and when it doesn't get it then we can say it was a lie but not yet. Don't make things up and try to sell them as fact.... again
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
How can you state categorically that it was a lie when no one has yet had to prove it one way or the other.?
Until the end of the transition period which was about 5 months ago we were still paying into the EU. You talk as if we haven't done so for years . JOHNSON has said the NHS will get whatever money it needs to put things in order . I recall a figure of £1 billion being mentioned. That will be 3 years of 350 million . If and when it doesn't get it then we can say it was a lie but not yet. Don't make things up and try to sell them as fact.... again
I can state categorically that it was a lie because we've never paid the EU £350 million a week.
that figure doesn't include the "rebate" which was taken off before we paid it.
without that I think it was at most 250 million.
aside from that,
it also doesn't include the EU funds being spent in the UK, which brings the net spend down to I think just over 150.
and it also doesn't include the impact on the economy of leaving the EU, which is very likely to have a much bigger effect on the public piece than the cost of membership
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Er, that's why I said "with our voting system, that always happens no matter who wins". Also, with only ten million out of forty seven million eligible votes, Labour would have loved to have got more than thirty per cent of it but it was the what's in it for me party who had "almost 70 per cent" not voting for them.
Dont get your argument. Conservatives got over 42% of vote in 2019, so 58% didn’t vote for them. Labour got over 32% of vote, so 68% didn't vote for them. What does that prove, apart from more people didn't vote for Labour than didn't vote for Conservatives.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
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Originally Posted by
City123
Blaming Corbyn for this is genuinely incredible. They won the seat twice under his leadership, with 2017 seeing them up 17% on 2015 while their 2019 result was still better than 2015, this is on Starmer.
I agree it is incredible but that's what one side of the labour party is saying this morning and the other faction is saying the exact opposite.
And they're doing it in public AGAIN!! That is just close party suicide
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
City123
Blaming Corbyn for this is genuinely incredible. They won the seat twice under his leadership, with 2017 seeing them up 17% on 2015 while their 2019 result was still better than 2015, this is on Starmer.
They were protected in 2019 by massive Brexit Party vote which has now gone to Tories. Corbyn did extremely well in 2017 and his polices were liked in 2019 but his leadership and Labour party weren't.
In 2021, areas with higher number of graduates have voted Labour in England (slightly) but areas where there are fewer have voted Tories.
What should be troubling is that areas like Hartlepool were targeted for biggest cuts during austerity years because they would always vote labour but now Tories are spending money they're picking up these deprived areas. How many other areas punished under Tories are now rewarding then with votes?
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
If we accept that currently Labour is a centre or centre right party (which I don't), as put forward by a number of people on here and people like Diane Abbott, there can be no doubt that they were soundly beaten in 2019 and yesterday by a party that is considerably further to the right in their policies. How on earth people can then advocate that, to regain their core voters, Labour need to lurch back to the left is totally beyond me. All the evidence is that they should become more right wing.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
xsnaggle
I agree it is incredible but that's what one side of the labour party is saying this morning and the other faction is saying the exact opposite.
And they're doing it in public AGAIN!! That is just close party suicide
I don't like to agree but it is indeed political suicide
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dml1954
If we accept that currently Labour is a centre or centre right party (which I don't), as put forward by a number of people on here and people like Diane Abbott, there can be no doubt that they were soundly beaten in 2019 and yesterday by a party that is considerably further to the right in their policies. How on earth people can then advocate that, to regain their core voters, Labour need to lurch back to the left is totally beyond me. All the evidence is that they should become more right wing.
No one is saying current Labour is centre right. They're saying they're not centre-left/left enough.
Their polices (Brexit aside) weren't soundly beaten in 2019 and many live on as Tories have drifted left economically (and right authoritarian culturally). Tories won't be able to implement them properly though and no doubt the policies get blamed rather than Tories.
Labour need to be a broad church to win (and need to attract more voters than ever due to boundary changes, removal of cap on election spending and inherent bias in FPtP voting system) which means being more centre and more left. And more United behind that.
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Re: Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
The increased profile of the Welsh Parliament since the Pandemic has been a bit of a godsend to Conservative voters because they can forget about the fact that Wales has a very limited kind of self Government with much of it dependant on how much Westminster allocates them and just start blaming Welsh Labour for everything. If we had the degree of independence you make it sound as if we had, there would be no point in there being a Plaid Cymru party.
the old chestnut that Wales is doing poorly because we aren't properly funded. We receive £15bn per annum in public expenditure than we generate in taxes. If Wales became independent, we'd be an economic basket case. It is all too easy for Welsh Labour to blame the lack of funding, but the Welsh government have considerably more power than any English region and receives considerably more funding per capita yet all English regions bar one have improved their lot compared to Wales in the lifetime of the Senedd. That tells me the Senedd and Welsh Labour is ineffectual and it is nothing to do with lack of funding. If it was down to funding, then the English regions would also struggle, but they have not.
Having the Tories in Westminster is an easy way out for Welsh Labour, as they don't have to be held accountable for their shambolic performance and can simply blame the lack of funding.