1 in 5 children is living below the poverty line in every part of Wales ?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Utter cobblers

Labour havnt convinced the people , the people have voted

If people in merthyr are stupid and donkeys for voting Labour then what does that make a commuter from Sussex who always votes tory ?

He is taking an educated choice but they are sheep ?

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It isn't cobblers Sludge, you just need to look at the facts

In 1929 there were 250k jobs in the Welsh mining industry, in 1979 there were 20k. At that rate the mines were closing by 1984. more mines were closed under Labour in the 1960s than at any other time. Under Thatcher 3% of South Wales worked in the mines and lost their jobs when that industry closed, with many retraining.

Under Labour, in 2008 around 6% of the Welsh workforce lost their jobs as a result of the financial crash. I don't recall any training.

Wales has faired no better or worse under Thatcher in terms of job losses. What did happen was Thatcher smashed the unions and many people just have not been able to get over it, perpetuating a myth that just does not hold up. What we have seen with the current Tory government is investment in Wales, with electrification of the South Wales mainline. That never happened under Labour.

I agree about the voters in Surrey, politicians need to earn your vote, and when you have solid blue or red areas, it breeds contempt for the wider electorate. I'm not sure of your point that you are trying to make

anyone who blindly follows a party or ideology is part of the problem.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

So you are saying the headlines in the economist about a worldwide financial crisis were .......lies ?

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I'm saying that the financial crisis in 2008 affected a handful of countries. The likes of Canada, Japan, Norway, Australia, China, Russia, Germany all weathered the storm and did not enter recession.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

The people of Merthyr would vote for you, wearing a dress, if you stood for Labour,

Why? Because Maggie closers the mines nearly 40 years ago.

It is what it is.

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I might well do that

How about affluent Cardiff North ?

I know you are a sore lover because plaid got leathered but you are going to have to do a lot better than that sonny

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

I think the line of poverty has changed. As someone who went to school on the Gurnos estate and had friends who didn’t know where their next meal was coming from, who’s parents couldn’t give them a hot bath, some of whom couldn’t even be bothered to walk them to school at 5/6 years old, it’s a different world from the 80s. 70s and 60s probably worse. At least now there’s food banks in place and better support networks for the vulnerable.

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the support for the vulnerable is mostly voluntary sector led . The tories have cut way back on public sector support .

The tories and Thatcher finished off the mining industry at a time of high unemployment and seemed to enjoy doing it. People out of work and with no jobs to go to.

Drive through plenty of old valley villages now and you can still see large old abandoned pubs which would have had trade after men finished work.

High youth unemployment as youngsters had no work to go to. Result crime drugs.

The highest percentage of mine closures i believe was by some distance Thatchers.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

It isn't cobblers Sludge, you just need to look at the facts

In 1929 there were 250k jobs in the Welsh mining industry, in 1979 there were 20k. At that rate the mines were closing by 1984. more mines were closed under Labour in the 1960s than at any other time. Under Thatcher 3% of South Wales worked in the mines and lost their jobs when that industry closed, with many retraining.

Under Labour, in 2008 around 6% of the Welsh workforce lost their jobs as a result of the financial crash. I don't recall any training.

Wales has faired no better or worse under Thatcher in terms of job losses. What did happen was Thatcher smashed the unions and many people just have not been able to get over it, perpetuating a myth that just does not hold up. What we have seen with the current Tory government is investment in Wales, with electrification of the South Wales mainline. That never happened under Labour.

I agree about the voters in Surrey, politicians need to earn your vote, and when you have solid blue or red areas, it breeds contempt for the wider electorate. I'm not sure of your point that you are trying to make

anyone who blindly follows a party or ideology is part of the problem.

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Retraining under Thatcher?

You are having a laugh , high unemployment was a price worth paying according to the tories

The closure of industry in South Wales meant many just turned to the building trade doing odd jobs or signed on

They parked loads of people on the sick , massaging the true out of work figures

The attack on the miners was an ideological one , she wanted to split and weaken the powerful NUM

A lot of strange people admire Thatcher for taking on the unions but these were proud working men . It was cheaper to keep uneconomic mines open and provide employment than stick everybody on the dole but she was driven by her neo con libertarian nonsense .

The crash of 2008 when Labour were in power was a worldwide crash . The Pandemic under the tories was a worldwide pandemic . Labours spending plans were backed by the tories who said they would spend more . When the election came they changed colours .

She and they are an untrustworthy bunch

I just wish we had a decent left of centre opposition to kick their arses

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I'm saying that the financial crisis in 2008 affected a handful of countries. The likes of Canada, Japan, Norway, Australia, China, Russia, Germany all weathered the storm and did not enter recession.

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type in global financial crisis , countries affected

If you think that's a handful of countries then OK 👌

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Retraining under Thatcher?

You are having a laugh , high unemployment was a price worth paying according to the tories

The closure of industry in South Wales meant many just turned to the building trade doing odd jobs or signed on

They parked loads of people on the sick , massaging the true out of work figures

The attack on the miners was an ideological one , she wanted to split and weaken the powerful NUM

A lot of strange people admire Thatcher for taking on the unions but these were proud working men . It was cheaper to keep uneconomic mines open and provide employment than stick everybody on the dole but she was driven by her neo con libertarian nonsense .

The crash of 2008 when Labour were in power was a worldwide crash . The Pandemic under the tories was a worldwide pandemic . Labours spending plans were backed by the tories who said they would spend more . When the election came they changed colours .

She and they are an untrustworthy bunch

I just wish we had a decent left of centre opposition to kick their arses

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Thatchers decision to close the mines and in affect, most other industries attached to it, was ideological. What she was scared of was an organised and powerful labour force. Workers having the ability to defend themselves and protect their families and communities. It was all part of a sustained attack on workers. The beginning of the creation of the underclass, third and fourth generation on benefits and all of the social, health and educational issues that go with it.

I know that we've gone over this, but a centrist party would not defend workers and their families.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Retraining under Thatcher?

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yes, retaining was offered to all miners, some took it up, others did not.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You are having a laugh , high unemployment was a price worth paying according to the tories

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you're a victim of the PR machine sludge. The long term trend indicated the mines would all be closed by 1984. The single biggest government decision to impact the South Wales mines was not Thatcher in the 80s but the government switching the Royal Navy to Diesel in the 1920s.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The closure of industry in South Wales meant many just turned to the building trade doing odd jobs or signed on

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not sure of the point you're trying to make

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

They parked loads of people on the sick , massaging the true out of work figures

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are you saying the miners and others weren't sick and were in fact benefits cheats? I thought you said earlier in the thread benefits cheats don't really exist.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The attack on the miners was an ideological one , she wanted to split and weaken the powerful NUM

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I don't see a problem with this. The unions wanted to dictate government policy. We vote for our politicians to decide policy. Unions should stick to the workplace.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

A lot of strange people admire Thatcher for taking on the unions but these were proud working men . It was cheaper to keep uneconomic mines open and provide employment than stick everybody on the dole but she was driven by her neo con libertarian nonsense .

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it was not cheaper Sludge, the world had moved on from coal. and why on earth would you want to propagate and maintain such a dangerous and unhealthy industry? miners may have formed strong communities, but it was at great expense to their health. Rather than seeing this as a political football ,we should be grateful that few of us now have to work in such conditions to put food on the table.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The crash of 2008 when Labour were in power was a worldwide crash . The Pandemic under the tories was a worldwide pandemic . Labours spending plans were backed by the tories who said they would spend more . When the election came they changed colours .

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it was not a worldwide crash, unless Australia, Canada, Russia, Japan, Norway et al all inhabit a different world to you

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

She and they are an untrustworthy bunch

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all politicians are sludge, you are just too blinded by dogma to see it.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I just wish we had a decent left of centre opposition to kick their arses

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we do, the libdems.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Thatchers decision to close the mines and in affect, most other industries attached to it, was ideological. What she was scared of was an organised and powerful labour force. Workers having the ability to defend themselves and protect their families and communities. It was all part of a sustained attack on workers. The beginning of the creation of the underclass, third and fourth generation on benefits and all of the social, health and educational issues that go with it.

I know that we've gone over this, but a centrist party would not defend workers and their families.

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in 1929 there were 250k miners in South Wales, in 1979 when Thatcher came to power there were 20k. The long term trend indicated all the mines would be closed by 1984.

It was hardly ideological.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

yes, retaining was offered to all miners, some took it up, others did not.


you're a victim of the PR machine sludge. The long term trend indicated the mines would all be closed by 1984. The single biggest government decision to impact the South Wales mines was not Thatcher in the 80s but the government switching the Royal Navy to Diesel in the 1920s.


not sure of the point you're trying to make


are you saying the miners and others weren't sick and were in fact benefits cheats? I thought you said earlier in the thread benefits cheats don't really exist.


I don't see a problem with this. The unions wanted to dictate government policy. We vote for our politicians to decide policy. Unions should stick to the workplace.


it was not cheaper Sludge, the world had moved on from coal. and why on earth would you want to propagate and maintain such a dangerous and unhealthy industry? miners may have formed strong communities, but it was at great expense to their health. Rather than seeing this as a political football ,we should be grateful that few of us now have to work in such conditions to put food on the table.


it was not a worldwide crash, unless Australia, Canada, Russia, Japan, Norway et al all inhabit a different world to you


all politicians are sludge, you are just too blinded by dogma to see it.


we do, the libdems.

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😂😂😂

I know multiple people who during the miner's strike had to burn furniture and books to keep their homes warm.

nobody had to do that after the global financial crisis in 2008

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Originally Posted by Feedback

in 1929 there were 250k miners in South Wales, in 1979 when Thatcher came to power there were 20k. The long term trend indicated all the mines would be closed by 1984.

It was hardly ideological.

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The percentage decline in jobs under Thatcher was actually double that under Wilson,(UK wide) Yes, Labour closed mines, no argument from me. Miners knew that the pits would close at some point, there was never an unlimited supply of coal. The reason why Thatcher is despised so much is because this happened at a time of very high unemployment, miners wives were refused hardship payments to feed their kids. It was ideological, the attack was wholesale and not about economics, but an attack on organised Labour. She humiliated these communities, wanted them defeated and on their knees, without real alternative in terms of jobs, re training and opportunity. That's why she is despised, it was cruel and vicious, and we are seeing the effects of what she did up until this day.

the prevailing view in the conservative party at the time (80s) was that once the jobs were all gone people would leave the area and move to London or other cities where there were jobs.
they also considered doing the same to the city of Liverpool.
literally zero concept that people would want to stay where they had grown up and where their family all were.

Sludge. The judges scorecards have Feedy well ahead. You’re gonna have to go for a late stoppage!

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Sludge. The judges scorecards have Feedy well ahead. You’re gonna have to go for a late stoppage!

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do they ****

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Sludge. The judges scorecards have Feedy well ahead. You’re gonna have to go for a late stoppage!

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thats because you are one of his lot

I ain't

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Originally Posted by Feedback

yes, retaining was offered to all miners, some took it up, others did not.

rubbish

you're a victim of the PR machine sludge. The long term trend indicated the mines would all be closed by 1984. The single biggest government decision to impact the South Wales mines was not Thatcher in the 80s but the government switching the Royal Navy to Diesel in the 1920s.

We know that , it was the way it was done


not sure of the point you're trying to make


are you saying the miners and others weren't sick and were in fact benefits cheats? I thought you said earlier in the thread benefits cheats don't really exist.

Thatcher invented incapacity benefit to park people on the sick rather than have them show up on the unemployment figures

I don't see a problem with this. The unions wanted to dictate government policy. We vote for our politicians to decide policy. Unions should stick to the workplace.

Bollocks


it was not cheaper Sludge, the world had moved on from coal. and why on earth would you want to propagate and maintain such a dangerous and unhealthy industry? miners may have formed strong communities, but it was at great expense to their health. Rather than seeing this as a political football ,we should be grateful that few of us now have to work in such conditions to put food on the table.

It was cheaper to keep people in work , spending money in their community rather than put them on benefits , its not difficult


it was not a worldwide crash, unless Australia, Canada, Russia, Japan, Norway et al all inhabit a different world to you

Of course it was , its described as a global financial crash because that's what it was , unless you , as a person I am unaware has written on the subject , thinks it wasn't? Don't stop believing mate


all politicians are sludge, you are just too blinded by dogma to see it.

Bollocks


we do, the libdems.

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Dead in the water

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

The percentage decline in jobs under Thatcher was actually double that under Wilson,(UK wide) Yes, Labour closed mines, no argument from me. Miners knew that the pits would close at some point, there was never an unlimited supply of coal. The reason why Thatcher is despised so much is because this happened at a time of very high unemployment, miners wives were refused hardship payments to feed their kids. It was ideological, the attack was wholesale and not about economics, but an attack on organised Labour. She humiliated these communities, wanted them defeated and on their knees, without real alternative in terms of jobs, re training and opportunity. That's why she is despised, it was cruel and vicious, and we are seeing the effects of what she did up until this day.

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feedback believes in capitalism and the power of the market place

Money regulates everything

You are wasting your time

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

feedback believes in capitalism and the power of the market place

Money regulates everything

You are wasting your time

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Feedy is an accountant, isn't he? he's just scared that under Socialism, he'd be made to do something more productive and positive to benefit society. I'd give him a sweeping brush and a black bag and start him at the top of Bute St :hehe: Disclaimer (joke alert)

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Feedy is an accountant, isn't he? he's just scared that under Socialism, he'd be made to do something more productive and positive to benefit society. I'd give him a sweeping brush and a black bag and start him at the top of Bute St :hehe: Disclaimer (joke alert)

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Hes a very bright lad

But I am afraid he's almost a libertarian as far as I can tell

Everything comes down to spreadsheets and profit , loss and interest rates

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Originally Posted by Rjk

I know multiple people who during the miner's strike had to burn furniture and books to keep their homes warm.

nobody had to do that after the global financial crisis in 2008

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Wasn't the miners' strike unofficial ? I also recall Scargill was demanding 100% pay rises - when coal was costing more and more to produce.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

Aren't the Welsh government responsible for this? Wales has better funding per capita and the Welsh government has more powers than any English region yet we fall further behind. Austerity would impact all of the UK, not just Wales, and yet Wales falls further behind.

At what point do we start holding the Welsh Government accountable and stop blaming Westminster for our own shortcomings?

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Well there will be another 30 to blame soon. A bigger Senydd will sort it out. Who needs a M4 relief road eh ?

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

The percentage decline in jobs under Thatcher was actually double that under Wilson,(UK wide) Yes, Labour closed mines, no argument from me. Miners knew that the pits would close at some point, there was never an unlimited supply of coal. The reason why Thatcher is despised so much is because this happened at a time of very high unemployment, miners wives were refused hardship payments to feed their kids. It was ideological, the attack was wholesale and not about economics, but an attack on organised Labour. She humiliated these communities, wanted them defeated and on their knees, without real alternative in terms of jobs, re training and opportunity. That's why she is despised, it was cruel and vicious, and we are seeing the effects of what she did up until this day.

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that is one take on it but not one that stands up to scrutiny if you look at the facts.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

It isn't cobblers Sludge, you just need to look at the facts

In 1929 there were 250k jobs in the Welsh mining industry, in 1979 there were 20k. At that rate the mines were closing by 1984. more mines were closed under Labour in the 1960s than at any other time. Under Thatcher 3% of South Wales worked in the mines and lost their jobs when that industry closed, with many retraining.

Under Labour, in 2008 around 6% of the Welsh workforce lost their jobs as a result of the financial crash. I don't recall any training.

Wales has faired no better or worse under Thatcher in terms of job losses. What did happen was Thatcher smashed the unions and many people just have not been able to get over it, perpetuating a myth that just does not hold up. What we have seen with the current Tory government is investment in Wales, with electrification of the South Wales mainline. That never happened under Labour.

I agree about the voters in Surrey, politicians need to earn your vote, and when you have solid blue or red areas, it breeds contempt for the wider electorate. I'm not sure of your point that you are trying to make

anyone who blindly follows a party or ideology is part of the problem.

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You’re looking at a topic too broadly.

AI and automation will displace more jobs than the coal pit closures ever did but it’s governments task to replace those jobs in the areas it displaces.

For the tories in that era the areas most displaced were neglected and were still paying the price now.

Our topography doesn’t help us but you can’t hide that we were the casualty chosen in order to protect the UK as a whole