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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
It'd make things a whole lot easier , that's for sure.
Things that will be reflected upon in 2223 and considered ****in dull as fck ........ gender segregation, maniacal use of fossil fuels ...... probably some other stuff too....nukes n shit.
..........If you are reading this two hundred years in the future as part of some history doctorate of book research or something......just know that dembethekuntwarrior and kunt from mars (It's bantz, lads. Don't get your non-transgender knickers in a twist) are not entirely representative of the fan base of Cardiff City FC (if you know what that is).
Also, are there robot dogs with machine guns on their backs killing everyone ?
What's wrong with saying females don't feel comfortable with men in the toilet?
Because that's what's happened in a pub near me. Should young women have to share a toilet with someone that isn't allowed the op, just because they identify as female?
We all have opinions mate. If you want to call me a **** for having a different one to you fine. Bloody keyboards...
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
What's wrong with saying females don't feel comfortable with men in the toilet?
Because that's what's happened in a pub near me. Should young women have to share a toilet with someone that isn't allowed the op, just because they identify as female?
We all have opinions mate. If you want to call me a **** for having a different one to you fine. Bloody keyboards...
White folk in the 30s complained about feeling uncomfortable about sharing schools or living next-door to black people.
Fear is at the root of all types of prejudice. It should not be a justification for exclusion. That's my opinion.
I don't think your a knt , I was just being flippant. But some of your comments....like the first one you made on this topic, are definitely reminiscent of a knty point of view...maybe you were being flippant too.
I dunno, I just think the point of view of a lot of people is a bit "Yes, Trans people have rights, BUT a trans woman or a trans man can never be considered entirely equal to their biologically assigned counterparts." ....which is a bit of a cop out imo.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
White folk in the 30s complained about feeling uncomfortable about sharing schools or living next-door to black people.
Fear is at the root of all types of prejudice. It should not be a justification for exclusion. That's my opinion.
I don't think your a knt , I was just being flippant. But some of your comments....like the first one you made on this topic, are definitely reminiscent of a knty point of view...maybe you were being flippant too.
I dunno, I just think the point of view of a lot of people is a bit "Yes, Trans people have rights, BUT a trans woman or a trans man can never be considered entirely equal to their biologically assigned counterparts." ....which is a bit of a cop out imo.
People feel uncomfortable. But the way some talk, they can't be uncomfortable because it may hurt the feelings of others.
That's the impression I get sometimes.
I have absolutely no issue with any person on this earth and how they chose to live their life, I am not personally affected if a trans person goes in a women's toilet.
Does that mean that all women should be ok with this? That's up to them.
The only issue I have made in this thread is of a real situation that I've come across in a pub, where a person who has been denied the op, but idenfies as a woman, is basically to the naked eye a man dressed as a woman wig and all.. I talk to this person, I have absolutely no issue with the decisions they've made about their own life, and I've heard the story as to why they wanted the change, but biologically they are still a man, they'll never get the op. Now I personally don't think in this case it is correct for them to use the woman's toilets.
Call me a **** for that, I don't really care.
To many self righteous heroes on this board.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
People feel uncomfortable. But the way some talk, they can't be uncomfortable because it may hurt the feelings of others.
That's the impression I get sometimes.
I have absolutely no issue with any person on this earth and how they chose to live their life, I am not personally affected if a trans person goes in a women's toilet.
Does that mean that all women should be ok with this? That's up to them.
The only issue I have made in this thread is of a real situation that I've come across in a pub, where a person who has been denied the op, but idenfies as a woman, is basically to the naked eye a man dressed as a woman wig and all.. I talk to this person, I have absolutely no issue with the decisions they've made about their own life, and I've heard the story as to why they wanted the change, but biologically they are still a man, they'll never get the op. Now I personally don't think in this case it is correct for them to use the woman's toilets.
Call me a **** for that, I don't really care.
To many self righteous heroes on this board.
Do you remember years ago when many argued (some still do) it was biology/body parts = sexuality. Later many realised actually it wasn’t the case.
This is the same issue here. People believe Biology/body parts = gender. But for many it does not. Yes a majority of people it does align but also for quite a few it doesn’t. So no matter whether someone has the gender surgery (and this surgery isn’t just about altering genitalia- there are lots of different things people can do) it does not change them to whether they are a guy or a women. This is already set in stone at an early age or even prior to birth (IDK). I certainly know that I’ve had been like this as far back as about 5-6 but before I can’t remember really. For example the women in the pub, my friends who aretrans women - they were already a women in the mind deep down from an early age. It should be noted that for some people it can take decades to realise this - some people probably never do. It’s extremely confusing for some and others bury it deep never to think about it. It should also be noted that some peoples gender ID’s can fluctuate but again the person has probably always been like this. So the women in the pub she is a woman she’s always been a woman and surgery or no surgery she is a woman. Having surgery helps things align but it does not change your gender. For some trans people it’s vital for some it’s less important. For some it is t an option. Most trans guys for example don’t have bottom surgery (genital alterations).
Many trans people although being proud of who they are didn’t particularly want to be trans. Like me I don’t WANT to feel like a guy, I just wish I felt like a woman and then my body would align. There is no choice in the matter - that you must believe me, no one chooses their gender!
I understand when you see a trans woman - something in your head tells you but they are a man dressed in woman’s clothes. This is partly to do with minimal exposure to trans people and the fact that yes most people dress in one way which would be - male body parts = male clothes Women’s body parts = women’s clothes but as I said above it isn’t always the case. It’s just what society is used to. I don’t want to keep using gay people all the time but remember 40 odd years ago you see two men holding hands and walking down the road - most people would probably say yuk that’s disgusting or that’s not normal - keep them away from the children! Now most people aren’t bothered (some people still are) but it’s because people have realise there is no threat and got used to it. It’s exactly the same in this case. If I had to use another example and I hate to use this because it applies to me. Someone who is disabled - years ago many people were hidden away and when people started coming into public people would stare, think that’s not normal and even be unkind. Thankfully most people would t dream of doing that now.
Much of what you feel (and I’m not saying it’s your fault or you are doing it deliberately) is because you aren’t used to seeing trans people and all you’ve probably seen are films in the past where trans people have been mocked and made out that they are some sort of sexual predators and negative media - which is happening right now. We are somewhat right in the middle of it! Even I (as a trans person) sometimes struggle to understand about all the different genders and pronouns. Even I have made mistakes and misgendered someone and that’s coming from a trans person! If I see a trans person sometimes I have to look twice BUT I have one thing in my favour - because I am trans I know it exists and I know what they are going through. Most people don’t have that advantage and therefore I understand the problems that people have understanding.
In the case of the trans women in the pub. So we have established she is a women despite whatever she is wearing or whatever body parts she has (This is where so many people struggle - people will usually say but she isn’t). I’m not saying she has the same body as a cis woman - that’s obvious but inside 100% woman. So if she has bottom surgery (basic terms to remove the penis and to sometimes to create and vagina) it won’t change the way she feels in the mind about because that was set in stone years ago. Going into a toilet - we would use a cubicle do no one is going to see anything and that is the last thing she would want anyway. It’s not like men’s toilets where everyone s weeing up the wall! Most trans women I know sit down to use the toilet cause - it’s just what come naturally. They’ve told me that btw. No one is going to be exposed to genitals. So if you cannot see past the clothes and voice for example then you willl never fully grasp it. You will always argue that woman will be uncomfortable but it is because of wrong ideas and fear. It will change over time but will take quite a few years.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
People feel uncomfortable. But the way some talk, they can't be uncomfortable because it may hurt the feelings of others.
That's the impression I get sometimes.
I have absolutely no issue with any person on this earth and how they chose to live their life, I am not personally affected if a trans person goes in a women's toilet.
Does that mean that all women should be ok with this? That's up to them.
The only issue I have made in this thread is of a real situation that I've come across in a pub, where a person who has been denied the op, but idenfies as a woman, is basically to the naked eye a man dressed as a woman wig and all.. I talk to this person, I have absolutely no issue with the decisions they've made about their own life, and I've heard the story as to why they wanted the change, but biologically they are still a man, they'll never get the op. Now I personally don't think in this case it is correct for them to use the woman's toilets.
Call me a **** for that, I don't really care.
To many self righteous heroes on this board.
In terms of woman feeling uncomfortable (many woman couldn’t care less but that’s not to say that the women who ARE uncomfortable - their feelings are invalid) one of the ways that could help would be to actually get to know a trans women or discuss their worries. Again it would need to be done in a respectful way on both sides but that would be one way. It should be noted that one trans women doesn’t represent all trans people because like anyone - people are unique. Trans woman that you know - 1 could be a horrible person the other could be very kind and amazing people so the more people you know the better. I’m not saying go and join the trans group! But the trouble is many trans people hide away (only going to groups or places they are comfortable with and feel safe a lot of time so it limits their exposure). Many Trans woman feel unsafe everytime they leave their front door.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SuperBluebirds91
In terms of woman feeling uncomfortable (many woman couldn’t care less but that’s not to say that the women who ARE uncomfortable - their feelings are invalid) one of the ways that could help would be to actually get to know a trans women or discuss their worries. Again it would need to be done in a respectful way on both sides but that would be one way. It should be noted that one trans women doesn’t represent all trans people because like anyone - people are unique. Trans woman that you know - 1 could be a horrible person the other could be very kind and amazing people so the more people you know the better. I’m not saying go and join the trans group! But the trouble is many trans people hide away (only going to groups or places they are comfortable with and feel safe a lot of time so it limits their exposure). Many Trans woman feel unsafe everytime they leave their front door.
As I said, the person I keep mentioning, I have talked to..I knew them before they started the process as well.
They aren't able to get the op.
I call them by their female name, as I'm not a dick, but I also understand women and men in the pub feeling uncomfortable with them using the female toilets, as due to not being able to have the op they are, in some people's opinions, a man who dresses as a woman. If they had the op nobody would care.
This is where it gets confusing.
You have cases of people who genuinely want to change genders and become women, they aren't until they are operated on, but they identify as.
Couldn't anyone say they are a woman and start using the women's toilets?
The simplest way is to say, people who have transitioned use the women's, people who haven't use the men's.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
What a problematic sentence that is. Contradictory. Condescending. That's how it reads on paper at least.
I don't think anyone is in a position to prescribe limitations on others based on who they are.
You are this, so you can't do this.
Maybe if you are a kid or something, adults can tell you not to bet on the horses n shit.....but beyond that, telling another adult to "know their place" ......hmmmm, dunno ......
Your opinion. Mine is that whatever rights trans people are awarded should not endanger women. Women themselves feel that they are in danger by the current trend - trans women being allowed in women's changing rooms, trans women being allowed in communal toilets, trans women being allowed in women's prisons, etc. They don't just feel uncomfortable, they feel in danger. This is less to do with genuine trans women themselves than those predatory men who declare themselves trans to prey on women. The man who was at the centre of the recent Scottish prison debacle is an example.
I am perfectly OK with anyone declaring themselves to be whatever they want and I am generally happy with accommodating their wishes. But, as I said, an individual can't demand that society falls in line with their wishes 100%. If it puts others in danger then that's where the boundary is.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Robin Friday's Ghost
Your opinion. Mine is that whatever rights trans people are awarded should not endanger women. Women themselves feel that they are in danger by the current trend - trans women being allowed in women's changing rooms, trans women being allowed in communal toilets, trans women being allowed in women's prisons, etc. They don't just feel uncomfortable, they feel in danger. This is less to do with genuine trans women themselves than those predatory men who declare themselves trans to prey on women. The man who was at the centre of the recent Scottish prison debacle is an example.
I am perfectly OK with anyone declaring themselves to be whatever they want and I am generally happy with accommodating their wishes. But, as I said, an individual can't demand that society falls in line with their wishes 100%. If it puts others in danger then that's where the boundary is.
Nicely put
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
As I said, the person I keep mentioning, I have talked to..I knew them before they started the process as well.
They aren't able to get the op.
I call them by their female name, as I'm not a dick, but I also understand women and men in the pub feeling uncomfortable with them using the female toilets, as due to not being able to have the op they are, in some people's opinions, a man who dresses as a woman. If they had the op nobody would care.
This is where it gets confusing.
You have cases of people who genuinely want to change genders and become women, they aren't until they are operated on, but they identify as.
Couldn't anyone say they are a woman and start using the women's toilets?
The simplest way is to say, people who have transitioned use the women's, people who haven't use the men's.
Why would anyone want to ‘just say’ they are a women and use the women’s toilets though? For a start as soon as you do that you are already at risk of assault yourself. People would watch you like a hawk - as many people do with trans women. Don’t forget the entrance to men’s toilets are usually right next to or by the women’s toilets anyway. Sometimes the entrances are wide open with no door.
if people are uncomfortable then they have a lack of awareness and fear about trans women. Not saying they are at fault because like I said before - there is a lot of negativity and false ideas.
If they are uncomfortable about someone pretending to be a trans women - when has this happened in history? Once? I’ve never heard of it happening. Trans women have been using women’s toilets for decades. If there had been many assaults where people has pretended to be trans we would definitely know about it.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SuperBluebirds91
Why would anyone want to ‘just say’ they are a women and use the women’s toilets though? For a start as soon as you do that you are already at risk of assault yourself. People would watch you like a hawk - as many people do with trans women. Don’t forget the entrance to men’s toilets are usually right next to or by the women’s toilets anyway. Sometimes the entrances are wide open with no door.
if people are uncomfortable then they have a lack of awareness and fear about trans women. Not saying they are at fault because like I said before - there is a lot of negativity and false ideas.
If they are uncomfortable about someone pretending to be a trans women - when has this happened in history? Once? I’ve never heard of it happening. Trans women have been using women’s toilets for decades. If there had been many assaults where people has pretended to be trans we would definitely know about it.
How is a person who hasn't had an op a trans woman?
Why does it have to be a lack of awareness if people feel uncomfortable?
I didn't say it happens a lot, I said what's to stop it happening.
Why would people have a fear of them?
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Robin Friday's Ghost
Your opinion. Mine is that whatever rights trans people are awarded should not endanger women. Women themselves feel that they are in danger by the current trend - trans women being allowed in women's changing rooms, trans women being allowed in communal toilets, trans women being allowed in women's prisons, etc. They don't just feel uncomfortable, they feel in danger. This is less to do with genuine trans women themselves than those predatory men who declare themselves trans to prey on women. The man who was at the centre of the recent Scottish prison debacle is an example.
I am perfectly OK with anyone declaring themselves to be whatever they want and I am generally happy with accommodating their wishes. But, as I said, an individual can't demand that society falls in line with their wishes 100%. If it puts others in danger then that's where the boundary is.
Are you aware that most trans women are in women’s prisons. The Scottish case was referring to someone who was very high risk. Even then though they were segregated and kept completely separate from any other cell mate. My personal belief is what ever gender you are you should be in the prison that matches your gender. If you are high risk such as this woman in Scotland you will be seperate in any case. There is no risk to others which ever prison you are in. same with cis women if you are high risk to other women because women also are rapist or are a high risk to other woman than they will be kept separate.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
Nicely put
Such gents. Such concern for the ladies. Poor little damsels.
As far as RFG ....that's not my opinion. The sentence is condescending and contradictory. IT's a fact.
I want them to be happy - But forget about using the "real" ladies toilets. <----- contradiction. They can't feel happy if they are always treated as if they are dudes who put a bit of make up on.
Thinking you have the right to allow them privilesdges and deny them others whilst wishing them all the best is condescending. It's also an authority you don't possess.
You also don't represent all women. You can't speak for them. That is called machismo .Which is also dodgy as fck.
To this point. It's very interesting that yo don't seem so concerned about trans men using the "gents". No doubt because you ccan "look after yourselves".
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
Such gents. Such concern for the ladies. Poor little damsels.
As far as RFG ....that's not my opinion. The sentence is condescending and contradictory. IT's a fact.
I want them to be happy - But forget about using the "real" ladies toilets. <----- contradiction. They can't feel happy if they are always treated as if they are dudes who put a bit of make up on.
Thinking you have the right to allow them privilesdges and deny them others whilst wishing them all the best is condescending. It's also an authority you don't possess.
You also don't represent all women. You can't speak for them. That is called machismo .Which is also dodgy as fck.
To this point. It's very interesting that yo don't seem so concerned about trans men using the "gents". No doubt because you ccan "look after yourselves".
I am speaking from experience of a situation I've seen with my own eyes in a pub near to where I live.
You keep tapping away on your keyboard you absolute hero.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
How is a person who hasn't had an op a trans woman?
Why does it have to be a lack of awareness if people feel uncomfortable?
I didn't say it happens a lot, I said what's to stop it happening.
Why would people have a fear of them?
Being transgender has nothing todo with having an op itself. Someone who is transgender = a person whose gender does not match/align with their sex registered at birth. Being a trans women doesn’t mean you’ve had an operation or you will have an operation. If you like - surgery is a sort of treatment to help make things align more.
Maybe your thinking of transsexual which isn’t really used anymore or is used a lot less. That is more todo with surgery.
For the record a tranvestite is completely different again - that is someone who dresses up as the opposite sex (quite often a man dressing up as a woman) for whatever purpose. Usually their job in entertainment or perhaps even fetish reasons I don’t know I’m not really famalier myself with transvestites.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
Such gents. Such concern for the ladies. Poor little damsels.
As far as RFG ....that's not my opinion. The sentence is condescending and contradictory. IT's a fact.
I want them to be happy - But forget about using the "real" ladies toilets. <----- contradiction. They can't feel happy if they are always treated as if they are dudes who put a bit of make up on.
Thinking you have the right to allow them privilesdges and deny them others whilst wishing them all the best is condescending. It's also an authority you don't possess.
You also don't represent all women. You can't speak for them. That is called machismo .Which is also dodgy as fck.
To this point. It's very interesting that yo don't seem so concerned about trans men using the "gents". No doubt because you ccan "look after yourselves".
I am not speaking on behalf of anyone. I am putting the case as presented by women's organisations who are deeply disturbed by current trends regarding women's spaces. Not sure what that makes me in your eyes but I can live with it.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Ok if we are going to police toilets and keep out women who look like men than a change in law would effect everyone, not just trans women.
It would affect woman who have facial hair as a result of poly cystic ovary syndrome.
It would women who don’t conform to stereotypes.
Some of these stereotypes have racist undertones.
They are already assumptions of a what a ‘white’ woman should look like or example.
Many woman using toilets already encounter problems from other woman when they use toilets. If the legislation is change quite a few woman will be excluded not just some trans women.
All I see in all this is there is no issue for men at all. But woman will be effected so much more. Like is said in an earlier post - the very people who are fighting or think they are fighting for woman’s right will actually be the ones taking them away.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SuperBluebirds91
Being transgender has nothing todo with having an op itself. Someone who is transgender = a person whose gender does not match/align with their sex registered at birth. Being a trans women doesn’t mean you’ve had an operation or you will have an operation. If you like - surgery is a sort of treatment to help make things align more.
Maybe your thinking of transsexual which isn’t really used anymore or is used a lot less. That is more todo with surgery.
For the record a tranvestite is completely different again - that is someone who dresses up as the opposite sex (quite often a man dressing up as a woman) for whatever purpose. Usually their job in entertainment or perhaps even fetish reasons I don’t know I’m not really famalier myself with transvestites.
I am not sure what has made you post that.
This person identifies as a female.
I thought I'd said that already.
I think a person with a penis walking into a woman's toilet is an issue personally, I'm not sure why it matters what someone identifies as in this sort of scenario. They get hurt feelings, what about the many more women who don't seem to have a choice in this decision and just have to go along with it however they feel, just incase they upset a community of people?
I'm repeating myself now..so I think I'll take the advice I gave to someone else and stop saying the same shit over and over.
We all know how eachother feels on this, probably not going to get anywhere by carrying on
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
I am speaking from experience of a situation I've seen with my own eyes in a pub near to where I live.
What was is this situation then ? Must be a hell of thing considering it forms the basis for denying thousands of people their rights.It's just the one situation as far as you are aware right ? Or have you gleaned any others from the online rags ?
Also, could this situation have happened with a regular cock'n'balls type , real man ? Did the fact this person was able to sneak under the guise of being a real woman give them the upperhand on their terror rampage ??
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Robin Friday's Ghost
I am not speaking on behalf of anyone. I am putting the case as presented by women's organisations who are deeply disturbed by current trends regarding women's spaces. Not sure what that makes me in your eyes but I can live with it.
But they aren’t current trends though trans woman have used women’s toilets for decades whether they’ve had surgery or not. Whether they’ve altered their gender certificate or not. How many cases of assault has occurred? We would have heard about it.
I am not saying that some woman’s feelings aren’t valid because well, with what’s been stirred up with negativity they have been taken in by the rhetoric. There are however some groups who are out to target vulnerable minority groups and this is where a lot of the problem stems from in the first place. 10 years down the line these people will have moved on but unfortunately have left a lot of damage behind that trans peop,e will have to try and somehow regain people’s trust that they never actually broke in the first place. 20 years down the line things will most likely have changed to the point that woman aren’t uncomfortable or in fear anymore.
Women will always have fear of male predators of course but this has no relevance to this.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Transgender women in German football
Would you boys be hero enough to go up to Ines Rau and tell her to "get in the gents" ?
Attachment 5514
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
I am not sure what has made you post that.
This person identifies as a female.
I thought I'd said that already.
I think a person with a penis walking into a woman's toilet is an issue personally, I'm not sure why it matters what someone identifies as in this sort of scenario. They get hurt feelings, what about the many more women who don't seem to have a choice in this decision and just have to go along with it however they feel, just incase they upset a community of people?
I'm repeating myself now..so I think I'll take the advice I gave to someone else and stop saying the same shit over and over.
We all know how eachother feels on this, probably not going to get anywhere by carrying on
I posted this because I thought you said and I may have misread it I’m not sure. I thought you said how is a person who hasn’t had an op, a trans woman? My point was being trans is not defined by having the surgery.
Happy to leave it there :thumbup:
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
Would you boys be hero enough to go up to Ines Rau and tell her to "get in the gents" ?
Attachment 5514
I can't restate my position in its entirety in every post. I have said previously in this thread that there are some tricky issues which need to be resolved. Maintaining women's spaces without putting trans women in danger is obviously one. The position of women's organisations is that it shouldn't be resolved by them losing their own spaces. And that us my position too.
I have drive to Scotland now to visit my son so have a good day.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
What was is this situation then ? Must be a hell of thing considering it forms the basis for denying thousands of people their rights.It's just the one situation as far as you are aware right ? Or have you gleaned any others from the online rags ?
Also, could this situation have happened with a regular cock'n'balls type , real man ? Did the fact this person was able to sneak under the guise of being a real woman give them the upperhand on their terror rampage ??
I don't have social media and I don't read the news online the majority of the time. I don't have a TV service I use YouTube, Spotify and occasionally watch sport or might watch a film or series. But on the whole I try to keep it to a minimum.
As for the rest of your post, it's not worthy of a reply. I have posted what I have posted. This isn't going anywhere..
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SuperBluebirds91
Do you remember years ago when many argued (some still do) it was biology/body parts = sexuality. Later many realised actually it wasn’t the case.
This is the same issue here. People believe Biology/body parts = gender. But for many it does not. Yes a majority of people it does align but also for quite a few it doesn’t. So no matter whether someone has the gender surgery (and this surgery isn’t just about altering genitalia- there are lots of different things people can do) it does not change them to whether they are a guy or a women. This is already set in stone at an early age or even prior to birth (IDK). I certainly know that I’ve had been like this as far back as about 5-6 but before I can’t remember really. For example the women in the pub, my friends who aretrans women - they were already a women in the mind deep down from an early age. It should be noted that for some people it can take decades to realise this - some people probably never do. It’s extremely confusing for some and others bury it deep never to think about it. It should also be noted that some peoples gender ID’s can fluctuate but again the person has probably always been like this. So the women in the pub she is a woman she’s always been a woman and surgery or no surgery she is a woman. Having surgery helps things align but it does not change your gender. For some trans people it’s vital for some it’s less important. For some it is t an option. Most trans guys for example don’t have bottom surgery (genital alterations).
Many trans people although being proud of who they are didn’t particularly want to be trans. Like me I don’t WANT to feel like a guy, I just wish I felt like a woman and then my body would align. There is no choice in the matter - that you must believe me, no one chooses their gender!
I understand when you see a trans woman - something in your head tells you but they are a man dressed in woman’s clothes. This is partly to do with minimal exposure to trans people and the fact that yes most people dress in one way which would be - male body parts = male clothes Women’s body parts = women’s clothes but as I said above it isn’t always the case. It’s just what society is used to. I don’t want to keep using gay people all the time but remember 40 odd years ago you see two men holding hands and walking down the road - most people would probably say yuk that’s disgusting or that’s not normal - keep them away from the children! Now most people aren’t bothered (some people still are) but it’s because people have realise there is no threat and got used to it. It’s exactly the same in this case. If I had to use another example and I hate to use this because it applies to me. Someone who is disabled - years ago many people were hidden away and when people started coming into public people would stare, think that’s not normal and even be unkind. Thankfully most people would t dream of doing that now.
Much of what you feel (and I’m not saying it’s your fault or you are doing it deliberately) is because you aren’t used to seeing trans people and all you’ve probably seen are films in the past where trans people have been mocked and made out that they are some sort of sexual predators and negative media - which is happening right now. We are somewhat right in the middle of it! Even I (as a trans person) sometimes struggle to understand about all the different genders and pronouns. Even I have made mistakes and misgendered someone and that’s coming from a trans person! If I see a trans person sometimes I have to look twice BUT I have one thing in my favour - because I am trans I know it exists and I know what they are going through. Most people don’t have that advantage and therefore I understand the problems that people have understanding.
In the case of the trans women in the pub. So we have established she is a women despite whatever she is wearing or whatever body parts she has (This is where so many people struggle - people will usually say but she isn’t). I’m not saying she has the same body as a cis woman - that’s obvious but inside 100% woman. So if she has bottom surgery (basic terms to remove the penis and to sometimes to create and vagina) it won’t change the way she feels in the mind about because that was set in stone years ago. Going into a toilet - we would use a cubicle do no one is going to see anything and that is the last thing she would want anyway. It’s not like men’s toilets where everyone s weeing up the wall! Most trans women I know sit down to use the toilet cause - it’s just what come naturally. They’ve told me that btw. No one is going to be exposed to genitals. So if you cannot see past the clothes and voice for example then you willl never fully grasp it. You will always argue that woman will be uncomfortable but it is because of wrong ideas and fear. It will change over time but will take quite a few years.
With all due respect you are trying to tell somehow how to think. The way I see it is there is a lack of empathy on both sides of the argument.
someone who is born male and identifies as male (ditto female) can only ever understand what it is to be male.
someone who is born male and identifies as female (and vice versa) can only ever understand what it is to be trans.
Neither side can understand the viewpoint of the other because they just cannot experience it.
The vast majority do not care whether someone wants to live as a man or a woman - that's their choice. But the vast majority do mind when those rights impact other people. We never hear this issue about trans men in the men's bathroom, because quite frankly men have not been conditioned to fear women. But women have been conditioned to be wary of men (women are the weaker sex after all), and for this reason, those who are biologically males are not always welcome in the female bathroom and other spaces. Trans women cannot and should not expect women to suddenly stop being apprehensive of men, just because they themselves are not. A trans woman is still biologically a man, and therefore they will not be able to understand what it is to be a biological woman and all that entails.
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Re: Transgender women in German football
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Divine Wright
To this point. It's very interesting that yo don't seem so concerned about trans men using the "gents". No doubt because you ccan "look after yourselves".
but this really is the point, men just don't feel threatened by trans men. If a woman walks into the male toilets (say in a club or a festival or similar), no one cares or bats an eyelid. We know she's there because no doubt the queue for the ladies is miles long, and in all my years I've never known any man have an issue with it. If a trans man walks in, then biologically they are a woman and the same rules apply. Biological woman just aren't seen as a threat.
This is about people being wary of their situation. Whilst men are twice as likely to suffer some kind of violent attack (rape, murder, assault) than women, men also feel they are more capable of handling the situation given their gender. It really is that simple.
Men are stronger than women, and some women don't want to be in situation whereby their vulnerability makes them a statistic.