"Science is not perfect but it trumps faith and belief all the time" - true or false?

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Originally Posted by lardy

So if we are also to believe that science was saying this in the same era (it wasn't), then wouldn't your same rule of language also apply?

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While we are (for those that accept the Bible is inspired by a Being that knows all things and also the entire past & future) listening to the words of God, they are being conveyed through the eyes and thoughts and language of people between 1500BC and 100AD.
So while you or I if we saw a meteorite would use the word meteorite, unfortunately that word (for example) wasn't available to John who wrote the book of Revelation; so when John is given a vision (to write down) about a scene that relates to his and our future, he says he saw a burning mountain fall into the sea! We in turn have to try and see it through his eyes/ mind to know what he means.

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Originally Posted by lardy

The sphere has four corners according to Revelation!

I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, on the sea, or on any tree.


I'm also interested to know when science thought the world was travelling on a big animal...

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Even more peculiarly, the Bible mentions the phrase, ends of the earth 81 times. Key users of the phrase included David, Jeremiah and Isiah who used it 12 times against a mention of a circle once.

There was also this bloke called Jesus who used it 3 times. You would have thought his proximity to his Dad would have given greater insight but there you go!

https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/bibl...the-earth.html

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Even more peculiarly, the Bible mentions the phrase, ends of the earth 81 times. Key users of the phrase included David, Jeremiah and Isiah who used it 12 times against a mention of a circle once.

There was also this bloke called Jesus who used it 3 times. You would have thought his proximity to his Dad would have given greater insight but there you go!

https://www.crosswalk.com/faith/bibl...the-earth.html

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I'm sure you can source better quality anti-biblical material as this is a phrase still being used in the 21st Century:-

Before the hurricane, La Ceiba’s city limits represented the ends of the earth to Keldy.
—Jonathan Blitzer, The New Yorker, 28 Jan. 2024

Parents of Harry Potter-loving, fairy-believing children have gone to the ends of the earth to keep this magic alive for as long as possible — but my mom was never one of them.
—Cathy Ching, BostonGlobe.com, 21 Apr. 2023

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

I'm sure you can source better quality anti-biblical material as this is a phrase still being used in the 21st Century:-

Before the hurricane, La Ceiba’s city limits represented the ends of the earth to Keldy.
—Jonathan Blitzer, The New Yorker, 28 Jan. 2024

Parents of Harry Potter-loving, fairy-believing children have gone to the ends of the earth to keep this magic alive for as long as possible — but my mom was never one of them.
—Cathy Ching, BostonGlobe.com, 21 Apr. 2023

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The irony of the phrase entering into common venacular because it was used so frequently in the Bible obviously passed you by.......but circle eh!

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

The irony of the phrase entering into common venacular because it was used so frequently in the Bible obviously passed you by.......but circle eh!

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That list would be a long one, and today (in the UK at least) most people are unaware that phrases and words such as Armageddon, Job's Comforter, Baptism of fire, by the skin of your teeth, The writing is on the wall, Give up the ghost and scores of others are originally from the Bible. The above article explains why circle of the earth is employed in Isaiah 40 very well.

It's a great pity that people end up using the language of God's Word, but are very careful to reject the Author and His key message of Salvation.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

That list would be a long one, and today (in the UK at least) most people are unaware that phrases and words such as Armageddon, Job's comforter, Baptism of fire, By the skin of your teeth, Writing is on the wall, Give up the ghost and scores of other are originally from the Bible. The above article explains why circle of the earth is employed in Isaiah 40 very well. It's a great pity that people end up using the language of God's Word, but are very careful to reject the advice of the Author.

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Interesting, now back to what Jesus Christ, the son of God meant when he regularly (according to the Scriptures) referenced the ends of the earth when surely he must have known better. Also, based on this exchange are you still of the faith that that crazy meme you posted with one oblique reference (probably a compass I think you said) proves conclusively that the Bible was ahead of science in determining that the earth was an oblate spheroid?

Not only does God know the past he knows the future ?

This is absolutely ridiculous and I can't take part in a debate with this sort of line in the sand

Boom !

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Interesting, now back to what Jesus Christ, the son of God meant when he regularly (according to the Scriptures) referenced the ends of the earth when surely he must have known better. Also, based on this exchange are you still of the faith that that crazy meme you posted with one oblique reference (probably a compass I think you said) proves conclusively that the Bible was ahead of science in determining that the earth was an oblate spheroid?

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1. He knew/ knows a lot more than 'better', He knows all things including what we are thinking right now. He is using the term ' ends of the earth' for a number of reasons; including the fact that his first century audience would have understood it, and today, we are capable of understanding it, especially as the phrase has endured the test of time. Like with any literature, the Bible can be literal, metaphorical and it also employs (for example) hyperbole in the phrase, 'the whole World has gone after Him' - a style of language we still understand in the 21st Century.

2. I'm not quite sure which reference you are highlighting (re a compass?) - but the Bible in other ways communicates the shape of the Earth to people (like us) who now realise that it is a (rough) sphere. When Christ (in an instant) returns, it says some will be asleep, some working, some relaxing; giving us a picture of a world in darkess and in light at the same time, not a possibility if the world was a flat disk.
Others have pointed out that the Hebrew word used in Isaiah 40:22 can mean circle or sphere, but this is not crucial point as the earlier article points out.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Interesting, now back to what Jesus Christ, the son of God meant when he regularly (according to the Scriptures) referenced the ends of the earth when surely he must have known better. Also, based on this exchange are you still of the faith that that crazy meme you posted with one oblique reference (probably a compass I think you said) proves conclusively that the Bible was ahead of science in determining that the earth was an oblate spheroid?

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Are you also suggesting that the Bible has NO later to be discovered science in it's pages?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Are you also suggesting that the Bible has NO later to be discovered science in it's pages?

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Not sure. Who knows what we will discover on the other line items of your meme showing biblical proof that it was ahead of science.

But we are still working through item 1, now back to what Jesus Christ, the son of God meant when he regularly (according to the Scriptures) referenced the ends of the earth when surely he must have known better. Also, based on this exchange are you still of the faith that that crazy meme you posted with one oblique reference (probably a compass I think you said) proves conclusively that the Bible was ahead of science in determining that the earth was an oblate spheroid?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

1. He knew/ knows a lot more than 'better', He knows all things including what we are thinking right now. He is using the term ' ends of the earth' for a number of reasons; including the fact that his first century audience would have understood it, and today, we are capable of understanding it, especially as the phrase has endured the test of time. Like with any literature, the Bible can be literal, metaphorical and it also employs (for example) hyperbole in the phrase, 'the whole World has gone after Him' - a style of language we still understand in the 21st Century.

2. I'm not quite sure which reference you are highlighting (re a compass?) - but the Bible in other ways communicates the shape of the Earth to people (like us) who now realise that it is a (rough) sphere. When Christ (in an instant) returns, it says some will be asleep, some working, some relaxing; giving us a picture of a world in darkess and in light at the same time, not a possibility if the world was a flat disk.
Others have pointed out that the Hebrew word used in Isaiah 40:22 can mean circle or sphere, but this is not crucial point as the earlier article points out.

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I was highlighting something you posted earlier in this thread. Don't you consume any of the cut and paste stuff you spew out?

In Isaiah 44:13 a variant of the word is translated in the ESV as “compass”: “The [human] carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house.” Here, the compass is an instrument used for drawing a circle, and such instruments are still in use today.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

1. He knew/ knows a lot more than 'better', He knows all things including what we are thinking right now. He is using the term ' ends of the earth' for a number of reasons; including the fact that his first century audience would have understood it, and today, we are capable of understanding it, especially as the phrase has endured the test of time. Like with any literature, the Bible can be literal, metaphorical and it also employs (for example) hyperbole in the phrase, 'the whole World has gone after Him' - a style of language we still understand in the 21st Century.

2. I'm not quite sure which reference you are highlighting (re a compass?) - but the Bible in other ways communicates the shape of the Earth to people (like us) who now realise that it is a (rough) sphere. When Christ (in an instant) returns, it says some will be asleep, some working, some relaxing; giving us a picture of a world in darkess and in light at the same time, not a possibility if the world was a flat disk.
Others have pointed out that the Hebrew word used in Isaiah 40:22 can mean circle or sphere, but this is not crucial point as the earlier article points out.

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Apologies, I missed your earlier counter argument on why Jesus talked about the ends of the earth. So Isiah, centuries before, knew that the Earth was an oblate spheroid because he mentioned a circle once and the ends of the Earth 12 times but Jesus wanted to be topicial with the flat earthers of the time.

However, when seeking to understand the Bible it can be literal, metaphorical or hyperperbolic dependant upon your mood and whether you are trying to prove or disprove a point.

Cracking!

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Apologies, I missed your earlier counter argument on why Jesus talked about the ends of the earth. So Isiah, centuries before, knew that the Earth was an oblate spheroid because he mentioned a circle once and the ends of the Earth 12 times but Jesus wanted to be topicial with the flat earthers of the time.

However, when seeking to understand the Bible it can be literal, metaphorical or hyperperbolic dependant upon your mood and whether you are trying to prove or disprove a point.

Cracking!

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Mood has zilch to do with it, unless you are talking about a bad mood causing a pretence of an inability to understand the context of each reference.

On a more straighforward reference that everyone will understand, how do you suppose that two different Old Testament writers were able to reference.....

1. "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth..." (2 Samuel 22:16)

2. You threw me into the ocean depths and I sank down to the heart of the sea......I sank down to the very roots of the mountains. (from Jonah 2:3,6)

......which have not been seen (due to the incredible underwater pressure) or discovered by any humans until 110 years ago!?

* April 27, 1914 – First Acoustic Exploration of the Sea Floor - Canadian inventor Reginald Fessenden found a way to employ an oscillator to bounce sound waves between an iceberg and the sea floor. This technology lead to the development of we now know as sonar.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Mood has zilch to do with it, unless you are talking about a bad mood causing a pretence of an inability to understand the context of each reference.

On a more straighforward reference that everyone will understand, how do you suppose that two different Old Testament writers were able to reference.....

1. "The valleys of the sea were exposed and the foundations of the earth..." (2 Samuel 22:16)

2. You threw me into the ocean depths and I sank down to the heart of the sea......I sank down to the very roots of the mountains. (from Jonah 2:3,6)

......which have not been seen (due to the incredible underwater pressure) or discovered by any humans until 110 years ago!?

* April 27, 1914 – First Acoustic Exploration of the Sea Floor - Canadian inventor Reginald Fessenden found a way to employ an oscillator to bounce sound waves between an iceberg and the sea floor. This technology lead to the development of we now know as sonar.

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To fully understand the point you are seeking to make. Are the Biblical references you want others to discuss literal, metaphorical or hyperperbolic based on your conclusions (not mood obviously) at #83

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

I was highlighting something you posted earlier in this thread. Don't you consume any of the cut and paste stuff you spew out?

In Isaiah 44:13 a variant of the word is translated in the ESV as “compass”: “The [human] carpenter stretches a line; he marks it out with a pencil. He shapes it with planes and marks it with a compass. He shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house.” Here, the compass is an instrument used for drawing a circle, and such instruments are still in use today.

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No problem, it would appear as with many Hebrew and Greek words there is more than one potential meaning; this word is מְחוּגָה mᵉchûwgâh (mekk-oo-gaw'); an instrument for marking a circle, i.e. compasses:—compass.

What is your question re this word?

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

To fully understand the point you are seeking to make. Are the Biblical references you want others to discuss literal, metaphorical or hyperperbolic based on your conclusions (not mood obviously) at #83

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Like with any literature, you examine the context in each individual case. To do otherwise would be madness, Bob would always end up being your Uncle! (for example).

The reference from Jonah for example is obviously literal, as Jonah was literally thrown overboard into the sea. And if you choose to fictionalise the narritive, you still need to explain how the writer even referenced the mountains of the deep?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

No problem, it would appear as with many Hebrew and Greek words there is more than one potential meaning; this word is מְחוּגָה mᵉchûwgâh (mekk-oo-gaw'); an instrument for marking a circle, i.e. compasses:—compass.

What is your question re this word?

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It was a simple question given that you used this sentence in the Old Testament to justify a conclusion that when Isiah talked about a circle around the Earth he was validating science before science. Biblical scholars think in terms of a compass rather than Isiah was a seer, given that he spewed out the ends of the earth reference a dozen times more.

So my question was, given the above, was the reference to a circle literal, metaphorical or hyperbolic based on your Biblical schemata and why, given the 81 flat earth references elsewhere?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Like with any literature, you examine the context in each individual case. To do otherwise would be madness, Bob would always end up being your Uncle! (for example).

The reference from Jonah for example is obviously literal, as Jonah was literally thrown overboard into the sea. And if you choose to fictionalise the narritive, you still need to explain how the writer even referenced the mountains of the deep?

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Which of the multitude of Bible translations use this reference and how many don't...and why? So for instance a bible references I sank down to the heart of the sea rather than the very roots of the mountains which version do you believe?

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Which of the multitude of Bible translations use this reference and how many don't...and why? So for instance a bible references I sank down to the heart of the sea rather than the very roots of the mountains which version do you believe?

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I don't believe any english reference in isolation, the Bible wasn't written in English.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Which of the multitude of Bible translations use this reference and how many don't...and why? So for instance a bible references I sank down to the heart of the sea rather than the very roots of the mountains which version do you believe?

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Cyril he always tells the truth,
passages from the bible.NOT
You never convince him to alter his ways.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

I don't believe any english reference in isolation, the Bible wasn't written in English.

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Good point. I'm sure it would help the rest of us trying to follow your convoluted and concocted arguments in this thread if you made any future posts through the medium of Greek.

That would be much clearer (and I'm sure more convincing) than your attempts in English. :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

I don't believe any english reference in isolation, the Bible wasn't written in English.

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Fair enough. Though unless you are an Aremaic, Hebrew or Latin scholar (spoiler alert...you're not) you must then have a go to text to overrule all those other versions. What is it?

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Fair enough. Though unless you are an Aremaic, Hebrew or Latin scholar (spoiler alert...you're not) you must then have a go to text to overrule all those other versions. What is it?

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Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old & New Testament Words is a brilliant reference, and while some of the worlds greatest Bible teachers can read the original languages, the majority cannot, so this is not a major consideration.
Also the internet can now give us quick access to the most gifted people in this field, so when words or phrases need to be analysed, then nobody needs to remain in the dark.

Attachment 6170

Here are your references for Jonah 2:6 and your query on the use of 'mountains' in that verse, you'll see a 'Strongs' reference numbered H2022; here below is the reference for H2022:-

Attachment 6171

I know it's rich for me to say this after my contributions on here regarding religion in general but....... you are all wasting your time.
Neither the religious protagonists on here nor the non-believers will change their views one iota.
That's not a criticism but an observation.
The endless exchanges are therefore just a waste of time and energy.