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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
I think part of the issue here, that we here in Europe don't fully appreciate is that the US is by far the biggest doner to Ukraine and for many Americans they simply have other priorities.
Most of us in Europe better understand the threat from Russia. Whether it's from seeing the war on our continent, greater impact on our food and fuel costs, to just having millions of people who lived under the oppression of Soviet communism, it's a threat that is far closer to home for Europeans, literally and figuratively.
Most Americans probably couldnt point to Ukraine on a map (and before we scoff, how many Europeans could point to Bolivia or Ecuador?).
We need to understand this thinking a bit more as I think it's driving a lot of the US governments thinking. Ie, "not our problem, but we are paying most for it".
Not saying that's the right way to think but I do think it's an issue and for many Americans I can see why they can think of better things to spend their money on.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Kyiv International Institute of Sociology is the source of the latest poll - measuring trust rather than support (although doubt there is a difference between the two):
https://www.kiis.com.ua/?lang=eng&ca...id=1496&page=1
The 4% support figure seems to have originated in an anti-Zelenskyy telegram channel where a small and hostile group of subscribers were asked if they trusted/supported him. That was picked up by Russia and amplified. It was then repeated and given the megaphone treatment by Trump.
It was like asking members of the English Defence League if they support Black Lives Matters!
There are some rumours floating about saying KIIS was funded by USAID.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I think part of the issue here, that we here in Europe don't fully appreciate is that the US is by far the biggest doner to Ukraine and for many Americans they simply have other priorities.
Most of us in Europe better understand the threat from Russia. Whether it's from seeing the war on our continent, greater impact on our food and fuel costs, to just having millions of people who lived under the oppression of Soviet communism, it's a threat that is far closer to home for Europeans, literally and figuratively.
Most Americans probably couldnt point to Ukraine on a map (and before we scoff, how many Europeans could point to Bolivia or Ecuador?).
We need to understand this thinking a bit more as I think it's driving a lot of the US governments thinking. Ie, "not our problem, but we are paying most for it".
Not saying that's the right way to think but I do think it's an issue and for many Americans I can see why they can think of better things to spend their money on.
I don't think they would know where Bolivia or Ecuador are either.
The whole Sacoolas incident showed us exactly what the American government think of us. I was thinking the other day, we actually have very little in common with America as a country. Their politics is almost entirely alien to us. Lots of cultural norms don't cross over at all, society seems to be structured around a flag, an anthem and is wedded to religion/god. It feels like we have a lot in common because they speak our language and make lots of TV shows and films. We are sort of tied to them because we don't want to be tied to China.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
I don't think they would know where Bolivia or Ecuador are either.
The whole Sacoolas incident showed us exactly what the American government think of us. I was thinking the other day, we actually have very little in common with America as a country. Their politics is almost entirely alien to us. Lots of cultural norms don't cross over at all, society seems to be structured around a flag, an anthem and is wedded to religion/god. It feels like we have a lot in common because they speak our language and make lots of TV shows and films. We are sort of tied to them because we don't want to be tied to China.
You will be surprised how many brits are trump arse kissers
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
You will be surprised how many brits are trump arse kissers
Yeah but I think that's just a desperation to be contrarian coupled with a lack of interest in politics/policy. If you put the filler and meandering aside the majority of what Trump says is factually incorrect but he says it with such confidence that his disciples believe it. This is precisely why I always try to shoot down the idea that politicians need charisma, that's literally the last quality you want from a politician if you want them to actually do any good.
I can't even begin to get in the head of someone who would vote for him.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I think part of the issue here, that we here in Europe don't fully appreciate is that the US is by far the biggest doner to Ukraine and for many Americans they simply have other priorities.
Most of us in Europe better understand the threat from Russia. Whether it's from seeing the war on our continent, greater impact on our food and fuel costs, to just having millions of people who lived under the oppression of Soviet communism, it's a threat that is far closer to home for Europeans, literally and figuratively.
Most Americans probably couldnt point to Ukraine on a map (and before we scoff, how many Europeans could point to Bolivia or Ecuador?).
We need to understand this thinking a bit more as I think it's driving a lot of the US governments thinking. Ie, "not our problem, but we are paying most for it".
Not saying that's the right way to think but I do think it's an issue and for many Americans I can see why they can think of better things to spend their money on.
according to Rory Stewart on twitter earlier the US haven't donated much more than the EU to Ukraine, the figures that trump was chucking around were wildly wrong
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
I don't think they would know where Bolivia or Ecuador are either.
The whole Sacoolas incident showed us exactly what the American government think of us. I was thinking the other day, we actually have very little in common with America as a country. Their politics is almost entirely alien to us. Lots of cultural norms don't cross over at all, society seems to be structured around a flag, an anthem and is wedded to religion/god. It feels like we have a lot in common because they speak our language and make lots of TV shows and films. We are sort of tied to them because we don't want to be tied to China.
No, I doubt they would. But I use it as an example to demonstrate why that part of the world won't necessarily be of enormous interest to many American voters.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Yeah but I think that's just a desperation to be contrarian coupled with a lack of interest in politics/policy. If you put the filler and meandering aside the majority of what Trump says is factually incorrect but he says it with such confidence that his disciples believe it. This is precisely why I always try to shoot down the idea that politicians need charisma, that's literally the last quality you want from a politician if you want them to actually do any good.
I can't even begin to get in the head of someone who would vote for him.
The problem is that the evidence from America....Trump....and Great Britain....Farage .....is that complete con artists who promise the lot and are flash are exactly what the right leaning voters are backing
It's incredible really , if I met the likes of farage at a party or social event I would think what a oily creep
But the fact is he's riding high in the polls
It astounds me but there you go
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
according to Rory Stewart on twitter earlier the US haven't donated much more than the EU to Ukraine, the figures that trump was chucking around were wildly wrong
Yeah as you can imagine, you can see different figures quoted, but the Wus populatiob is 100m more, and it's on their doorstep. As I say, its not hard to see why many Americans might feel it's not their top priority or they may feel that those much closer to Ukraine are putting in less than them.
As I say, it doesn't mean they are right but it's not a hard position to understand and I think it's probably a feeling we need to get to grips with to understand whats going on
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
The problem is that the evidence from America....Trump....and Great Britain....Farage .....is that complete con artists who promise the lot and are flash are exactly what the right leaning voters are backing
It's incredible really , if I met the likes of farage at a party or social event I would think what a oily creep
But the fact is he's riding high in the polls
It astounds me but there you go
No different to Corbyn at all. Not really any different to Obama and his vague promises of "hope". It's a very common trait. One could argue it's exactly what Starmer promised too. Politicians who are brutally honest would probably never get elected.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Yeah as you can imagine, you can see different figures quoted, but the Wus populatiob is 100m more, and it's on their doorstep. As I say, its not hard to see why many Americans might feel it's not their top priority or they may feel that those much closer to Ukraine are putting in less than them.
As I say, it doesn't mean they are right but it's not a hard position to understand and I think it's probably a feeling we need to get to grips with to understand whats going on
I meant to say the EU's population...not the Wus populatiob, of course.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Yeah as you can imagine, you can see different figures quoted, but the Wus populatiob is 100m more, and it's on their doorstep. As I say, its not hard to see why many Americans might feel it's not their top priority or they may feel that those much closer to Ukraine are putting in less than them.
As I say, it doesn't mean they are right but it's not a hard position to understand and I think it's probably a feeling we need to get to grips with to understand whats going on
It depends what you include. There is what the USA has spent on the war Vs what they have given Ukraine, the majority of the latter is the cost of replenishing weapon stocks (so not necessarily the value of the equipment given). Either way, I am struggling to find anything in the ballpark of the figure Trump mentions, so another lie probably. They make a lot of weapons and their stock is huge so they were in a position to give more, what Trump wants is for everyone to buy American made weapons and give them to Ukraine.
Trump and his supporters seem to have some inbuilt delusion that America is untouchable. A strong enlarged Russia who is now in the pocket of China and a weakened European continent that is at best ambivalent towards to the US. Its generous to call it short-sighted foreign policy to pursue that. Trump can cozy up to Russia and China as much as he wants, he's not going to gaze into their eyes and make them fall in love with America.
I had a couple of days in Athens on my own a few years back and it struck me how easy it is to assume the same order goes on forever, it doesn't.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
No, I doubt they would. But I use it as an example to demonstrate why that part of the world won't necessarily be of enormous interest to many American voters.
And you think this has always been true, or is a recent phenomena?
I doubt the average American ever had a better idea of geography than now - but in past decades they had a different sense of their role in the world (sometimes for good, more often for bad) than in the modern MAGA TrumpWorld.
Maybe that was down to the priorities and narratives of the broadcast, print and social media?
Maybe in the past stupidity and ignorance was less valued and celebrated than now?
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
It depends what you include. There is what the USA has spent on the war Vs what they have given Ukraine, the majority of the latter is the cost of replenishing weapon stocks (so not necessarily the value of the equipment given). Either way, I am struggling to find anything in the ballpark of the figure Trump mentions, so another lie probably. They make a lot of weapons and their stock is huge so they were in a position to give more, what Trump wants is for everyone to buy American made weapons and give them to Ukraine.
Trump and his supporters seem to have some inbuilt delusion that America is untouchable. A strong enlarged Russia who is now in the pocket of China and a weakened European continent that is at best ambivalent towards to the US. Its generous to call it short-sighted foreign policy to pursue that. Trump can cozy up to Russia and China as much as he wants, he's not going to gaze into their eyes and make them fall in love with America.
I had a couple of days in Athens on my own a few years back and it struck me how easy it is to assume the same order goes on forever, it doesn't.
I agree with you, but the point is, it's a long way from home for them and yet they are spending more than countries much closer, and many many Americans will think it's not money well spent. This is the reality of public opinion, right or wrong. I can understand their point though. American society has enormous problems and they are entitled to think there are better ways of spending it than sending it thousands of miles away to a country that they have probably never thought much about before.
Again, it's not saying that's the right attitude, but it's an understandable one and I think it's a key one to grasp to get what's happening now
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
It depends what you include. There is what the USA has spent on the war Vs what they have given Ukraine, the majority of the latter is the cost of replenishing weapon stocks (so not necessarily the value of the equipment given). Either way, I am struggling to find anything in the ballpark of the figure Trump mentions, so another lie probably. They make a lot of weapons and their stock is huge so they were in a position to give more, what Trump wants is for everyone to buy American made weapons and give them to Ukraine.
Trump and his supporters seem to have some inbuilt delusion that America is untouchable. A strong enlarged Russia who is now in the pocket of China and a weakened European continent that is at best ambivalent towards to the US. Its generous to call it short-sighted foreign policy to pursue that. Trump can cozy up to Russia and China as much as he wants, he's not going to gaze into their eyes and make them fall in love with America.
I had a couple of days in Athens on my own a few years back and it struck me how easy it is to assume the same order goes on forever, it doesn't.
Zelensky has gone on record and claims the figure as 177 billion dollars but only has received 75 billion dollars from USA
where's the rest of the money then if these claims are true ?
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Wonder where our tax dollars went🤔<br><br> 'Zelensky claims Ukraine only received around $75 billion of the $177 billion in aid that was sent from the United States'<br><br> Where did our money go? 💸💸💸💸💸 <a href="https://t.co/DqcHhU2GNR">pic.twitter.com/DqcHhU2GNR</a></p>— Greta_USA (@DEI_Greta) <a href="https://twitter.com/DEI_Greta/status/1892343113001128403?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 19, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
And you think this has always been true, or is a recent phenomena?
I doubt the average American ever had a better idea of geography than now - but in past decades they had a different sense of their role in the world (sometimes for good, more often for bad) than in the modern MAGA TrumpWorld.
Maybe that was down to the priorities and narratives of the broadcast, print and social media?
Maybe in the past stupidity and ignorance was less valued and celebrated than now?
Not sure. I think there's some truth in Americans not being top of the class in the global geography stakes. Understandable in some cases given it's size, lack of neighbours and the like I guess.
I'm not sure things have changed so much. There's always been a significant body of opinion that doesn't want America to the worlds policeman and to sort out their own problems first etc.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
MOZZER2
Zelensky has gone on record and claims the figure as 177 billion dollars but only has received 75 billion dollars from USA
where's the rest of the money then if these claims are true ?
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Wonder where our tax dollars went🤔<br><br> 'Zelensky claims Ukraine only received around $75 billion of the $177 billion in aid that was sent from the United States'<br><br> Where did our money go? 💸💸💸💸💸 <a href="https://t.co/DqcHhU2GNR">pic.twitter.com/DqcHhU2GNR</a></p>— Greta_USA (@DEI_Greta) <a href="https://twitter.com/DEI_Greta/status/1892343113001128403?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 19, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
https://www.cfr.org/article/how-much...-going-ukraine
The figures don't line up exactly but that could be for lots of reasons.
Gives an idea of how there is a difference between 'how much has the USA spent on the war' and 'how much has Ukraine received'
'It’s important to note that of the $175 billion total, only $106 billion directly aids the government of Ukraine. Most of the remainder is funding various U.S. activities associated with the war in Ukraine, and a small portion supports other affected countries in the region.'
I am sure it's not as juicy as the explanation you were heading towards (or being pushed towards by X propaganda) but gives an idea of why there could/would be so many different figures floating around.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I agree with you, but the point is, it's a long way from home for them and yet they are spending more than countries much closer, and many many Americans will think it's not money well spent. This is the reality of public opinion, right or wrong. I can understand their point though. American society has enormous problems and they are entitled to think there are better ways of spending it than sending it thousands of miles away to a country that they have probably never thought much about before.
Again, it's not saying that's the right attitude, but it's an understandable one and I think it's a key one to grasp to get what's happening now
A view I heard from a guest on Times Radio in the last few days was that Eisenhower told the Europeans that America would continue to pay the same proportion of funds to “policing “ Europe because they did not want to see any increase in German influence in the alliance. This person then went on to say that Clinton did the same in the 90s, so the notion that America has almost been conned by Europe into making the size of donation they have done historically to NATO may not be true - it’s been a considered decision by the Americans themselves even to the extent of telling Europe that they don’t have to spend more when they may have been minded to do so.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
A view I heard from a guest on Times Radio in the last few days was that Eisenhower told the Europeans that America would continue to pay the same proportion of funds to “policing “ Europe because they did not want to see any increase in German influence in the alliance. This person then went on to say that Clinton did the same in the 90s, so the notion that America has almost been conned by Europe into making the size of donation they have done historically to NATO may not be true - it’s been a considered decision by the Americans themselves even to the extent of telling Europe that they don’t have to spend more when they may have been minded to do so.
Exactly, they are tools of the state, and now the US doesn't like the path Europe is taking, so they are using those same tools in a different way.
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
I'm just guessing that this guy knows a little more of the situation current and past than the CCMB experts.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-media-max-width="560"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">🏆 Jeffrey Sachs Should Be A Nobel Prize Winner<br><br>Don't blame Russia for Ukraine War <br><br>Russia Did Everything Possible to Prevent this War<br><br>When They Blame Putin for Starting the War, Show Them This <br>👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇👇 <a href="https://t.co/h1bsm4PPi0">pic.twitter.com/h1bsm4PPi0</a></p>— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) <a href="https://twitter.com/ivan_8848/status/1893228172298063993?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 22, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Heathblue
I'm just guessing that this guy knows a little more of the situation current and past than the CCMB experts.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet" data-media-max-width="560"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">�� Jeffrey Sachs Should Be A Nobel Prize Winner<br><br>Don't blame Russia for Ukraine War <br><br>Russia Did Everything Possible to Prevent this War<br><br>When They Blame Putin for Starting the War, Show Them This <br>������������������������������ <a href="https://t.co/h1bsm4PPi0">pic.twitter.com/h1bsm4PPi0</a></p>— Ignorance, the root and stem of all evil (@ivan_8848) <a href="https://twitter.com/ivan_8848/status/1893228172298063993?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 22, 2025</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Who is he? Assume you mean the first speaker, not Tucker Carlson or Vladimir Putin?
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Who is he? Assume you mean the first speaker, not Tucker Carlson or Vladimir Putin?
Good effort from Wales, enjoyed that, the guy is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey_Sachs
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
I feel sorry for putin being so harshly treated by Ukraine. Bless his little cotton socks, he wouldn't harm a fly let alone 1 million Russians
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Who is he? Assume you mean the first speaker, not Tucker Carlson or Vladimir Putin?
It’s Arsene Wenger isn’t it?
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Re: Russia, Russia, Russia
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
Who is he? Assume you mean the first speaker, not Tucker Carlson or Vladimir Putin?
I wonder if certain users of this board would have the same views if Biden was brokering the same Ukraine deal as Donald Trump
Someone I doubt it.
