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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
I don't know why you always come out with this 'there is no hope and no solution' view Sludge. You do it all the time and with all sorts of issues - from anti-Tory electoral pacts to climate change to global conflicts. I don't understand why you are so pessimistic and defeatist. There is always hope.
Israel/Palestine is certainly one of the biggest and most difficult conflicts - over 75 years old and now more entrenched than ever - but the same things were said about South Africa and Ireland.
There is a will for peace amongst many Israeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Palestinians from the occupied territories. As you said in your post there are brave, committed and non-sectarian people across the divide. That is positive. There also has to be leadership within the Israeli state and from the Palestinian side - not an endless cycle of oppression, rage, provocation and reaction. There is little sign of that at the moment - but even a corrupt thug like Netanyahu could be drawn into a new peace process if he thought it was inevitable or in his own best interests (not so many of his far right, racist, government partners) as happened with South Africa, and even vilified and isolated Hamas has leading members who have made back channel contacts with the Israelis to begin a new peace process as recently as 2018.
I have no idea where a new process will begin - beyond Egypt and Qatar trying to create a short-term truce. Most of the world (including the UN, EU and other regional organisations) claim to support a two state solution, whilst standing by while that option has been dismantled by creeping annexation over the past 20 odd years. Israel gets a diplomatic, economic and military free pass whatever it does in defiance of international law and conventions. Hamas, a product of the occupation, poses as the defender of Palestinians when no one else gives a toss - but ends up using civilians as pawns in a desperate high-stakes game. Yet there is opposition to the current Israeli government in Israel and there is a new generation of Palestinian activists who reject both Hamas (violent Islamists) and the Palestinian Authority (who make big statements but act like the puny agents of the Israeli state on the West Bank - like a Vichy regime).
It won't be easy and it won't be quick but I believe there are enough elements of a solution out there for a settlement to emerge. Not a biblical Jewish supremacist apartheid state that has annexed the West Bank and Gaza and expelled the remaining indigenous people. Not the obliteration of an Israeli state that has existed and created its own roots and history over 75 years. But a compromise that most can live with. Ideally it would be a single democratic state with equal rights for all citizens - but more likely a new partition (creating a viable Palestinian state) where there would be another round of losers (land and citizenship) but a long term internationally guaranteed deal that can be established and protected over the next three generations - with some joint institutions (as in Ireland) and a reconciliation process once the time is right (as in South Africa).
Interestingly the Oslo accords were 30 years ago now. A beginning of a roadmap for peace was set. Netanyahu killed it with vitriolic rhetoric that played a big part in the Israeli pm being killed by a Jewish extremist. Hamas killed it with suicide bombs.
But at the time it was signed the vast majority of both Israeli and Palestinian populations supported it. The sad thing is, those poisonous b*stards who ruined the peace process are still around on both sides. But as you say, there is definitely hope. If they managed to get close before there's no reason they can't get further in the future. I just hope it's sooner rather than later, before too many more have to die
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
chrisp_1927
Tel Aviv still is to be fair, as is much of the heavily populated gush Dan conurbation it sits in. The loons tend to be in the settlements and Jerusalem. I do think there tends to be one major difference between the Tel Aviv type Israeli liberals and certain other progressives around the world though, that's that the Israeli progressives realise that the actions of the Israeli right are wrong and cause a lot of hatred and a lot of the problems, BUT, also that many in the countries around hate them purely for being Jews, and that if Israel retreats to the pre 1967 borders those people will still hate them just for being Jews. Too many so called progressives in the rest of the world seem to be able to see what Israel does wrong, but never want to challenge the attitudes towards Israel/Jews.
I'm all for a 2 state solution, it's the only choice surely. But I don't think for a minute it would stop attacks from the likes of Hamas
A friend went to tel aviv at the end of the summer
Liberal , Jews and Arabs and plenty of other cultures mixing , a big vibrant cosmopolitan city
What a mess it's all going to be now
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
chrisp_1927
Interestingly the Oslo accords were 30 years ago now. A beginning of a roadmap for peace was set. Netanyahu killed it with vitriolic rhetoric that played a big part in the Israeli pm being killed by a Jewish extremist. Hamas killed it with suicide bombs.
But at the time it was signed the vast majority of both Israeli and Palestinian populations supported it. The sad thing is, those poisonous b*stards who ruined the peace process are still around on both sides. But as you say, there is definitely hope. If they managed to get close before there's no reason they can't get further in the future. I just hope it's sooner rather than later, before too many more have to die
I remember the Israeli pm funeral after his murder by the zionist and his wife turning herself away from Netanyahu as he went past her at the service as she refused to greet him
He's lucky she didn't smack him one , he had some front turning up to that
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
A friend went to tel aviv at the end of the summer
Liberal , Jews and Arabs and plenty of other cultures mixing , a big vibrant cosmopolitan city
What a mess it's all going to be now
It's one of my very favourite places, vibrant and cosmopolitan as you say. Also home to great universities and scientific research and a huge tech scene. A great advert for what happens when religion takes a back seat and enjoying life takes precedence.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
chrisp_1927
It's one of my very favourite places, vibrant and cosmopolitan as you say. Also home to great universities and scientific research and a huge tech scene. A great advert for what happens when religion takes a back seat and enjoying life takes precedence.
I didnt realise how big it is , it's not major European city size but over half a million and the metro area
Great climate , great food from all over the world
And right by the beach 🏖
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
such a horrendous situation there, and difficult to see how it can ever improve.
I don't think a 1 state or a 2 state solution are viable these days
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
Rjk
such a horrendous situation there, and difficult to see how it can ever improve.
I don't think a 1 state or a 2 state solution are viable these days
A 2 state solution is the stated aim of most countries and international bodies. Netanyahu has consistently rejected it - although it was the official policy objective of Israeli governments before him after Oslo.
But a 2 state solution - whatever the pros and cons - cannot happen when land is steadily being taken from the Palestinians and what is left to them is deprived of power, water and access, and fragmented like South African 'bantustans'.
Making a 2 state solution impossible is current Israeli policy.
A 1 state solution is very possible. Not a single 'liberal democracy' with equal rights for all citizens, but an ethno-religious state based on Jewish supremacy and the final expulsion of the non-Jewish Arab indigenous people (or continuing restrictions, persecution and expropriation until the majority flee or die). That is the current direction of travel. It is the main factor behind the cycle of violence.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
jon1959
A 2 state solution is the stated aim of most countries and international bodies. Netanyahu has consistently rejected it - although it was the official policy objective of Israeli governments before him after Oslo.
But a 2 state solution - whatever the pros and cons - cannot happen when land is steadily being taken from the Palestinians and what is left to them is deprived of power, water and access, and fragmented like South African 'bantustans'.
Making a 2 state solution impossible is current Israeli policy.
A 1 state solution is very possible. Not a single 'liberal democracy' with equal rights for all citizens, but an ethno-religious state based on Jewish supremacy and the final expulsion of the non-Jewish Arab indigenous people (or continuing restrictions, persecution and expropriation until the majority flee or die). That is the current direction of travel. It is the main factor behind the cycle of violence.
When it is all laid bare as above by you and you see the Israeli politicians out for blood on the news today then you can see optimism and faith for a resolution is non existent for many
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
A small football related bit of news.
Celtic have condemned their own fans. It was a quite extraordinary display to follow the massacre of people at a music festival.
https://www.glasgowtimes.co.uk/sport...ort-palestine/
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
There's always Palestinian flags at Celtic games, this isn't a one off.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
This conflict is never going to end if the comments of Margaret Hodge against Owen Jones on Sky News are anything to go by
Both she and he have their fans and their doubters but as soon as Owen Jones mentioned the desperate plight of the Palestinians and the war hungry cries from some in the Israel government she behaved like a petulant child
He's clearly far left in his politics but she said that he was against Israel defending itself .......and made a point of this several times .....when he didn't say that at all and that any sort of invasion will prolong the slim chance of any lasting peace
Wether hes right or wrong she was completely without a pair of ears and if a senior politican in the UK is as one eyed then its all curtains as far as I can see
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
Tuerto
There's always Palestinian flags at Celtic games, this isn't a one off.
There is, but there isn't normally banners and texts in support of the resistance displayed. Timing and context matters.
Hence why Celtic FC have strongly condemned them.
I think it's awful after what happened earlier that day. I suspect if they knew the full story of events even they wouldn't have done it.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
There is, but there isn't normally banners and texts in support of the resistance displayed. Timing and context matters.
Hence why Celtic FC have strongly condemned them.
I think it's awful after what happened earlier that day. I suspect if they knew the full story of events even they wouldn't have done it.
There is banners and text at games supporting the people of Palestine, this isn't new. The Green Brigade actively and openly support Palestine at every home game. I can't see a problem with it.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
Tuerto
There is banners and text at games supporting the people of Palestine, this isn't new. The Green Brigade actively and openly support Palestine at every home game. I can't see a problem with it.
It's in very bad taste. You do see the odd Palestinian flag, that's true, but this was different and rightly condemned by the club. Celtic have form for this kinda thing and I think the Green Brigade are embarrassing the club.
https://www.celticfc.com/news/2023/o...lub-statement/
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
It's in very bad taste. You do see the odd Palestinian flag, that's true, but this was different and rightly condemned by the club. Celtic have form for this kinda thing and I think the Green Brigade are embarrassing the club.
https://www.celticfc.com/news/2023/o...lub-statement/
Depends how you look at it. Celtic the football club was borne from Imperialist colonial rule, borne out of oppression and famine. They support Palestine due to historic connections.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Depends how you look at it. Celtic the football club was borne from Imperialist colonial rule, borne out of oppression and famine. They support Palestine due to historic connections.
I understand the club's history. But it is 2023 and on Saturday morning a 1000 people were murdered by terrorists and a section of the clubs support wave banners saying 'victory to the resistance'.
I think it's disgusting in all honesty and football fans get condemned for a hell of a lot less.
Just seen the green brigade have written another response - no reference to the victims whatsoever.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Really bright and intelligent young British Palestinian film maker and actress just interviewed on sky news
She spoke about the displacement of the Palestinian people and how already Israeli actions are increasing the isolation over there .....basically starving them out
If this is a war situation then the rules of war are being broken
For every awful story of the weekend massacre from the Jewish perspective it can be met with accounts of young Palestinian children being shot or blown up
She said its clear that the major powers are siding with Israel and I can't see how anyone can disagree
Then a Jewish Actress Louisa Clein went on about feeling it was Jews who were being persecuted
The report then went to North London where the Jewish community are sending basic provisions to the soldiers fighting for Israel
If Israel thinks a ground offensive will improve matters then they are insane
What a complete s hit show
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Depends how you look at it. Celtic the football club was borne from Imperialist colonial rule, borne out of oppression and famine. They support Palestine due to historic connections.
does the Israeli international lad still play for them?
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
This conflict is never going to end if the comments of Margaret Hodge against Owen Jones on Sky News are anything to go by
Both she and he have their fans and their doubters but as soon as Owen Jones mentioned the desperate plight of the Palestinians and the war hungry cries from some in the Israel government she behaved like a petulant child
He's clearly far left in his politics but she said that he was against Israel defending itself .......and made a point of this several times .....when he didn't say that at all and that any sort of invasion will prolong the slim chance of any lasting peace
Wether hes right or wrong she was completely without a pair of ears and if a senior politican in the UK is as one eyed then its all curtains as far as I can see
Hodge has had anti Jew comments thrown at her all her life. Jones is just a prima donna, remember watching him storm off sky news in a huff. Pathetic child basically like likes to wave his Im gay and I feel threatened flag whenever he is out of his depth.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
+ the native hipster
does the Israeli international lad still play for them?
No he's moved on and condemned the flag waving
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
pipster
Hodge has had anti Jew comments thrown at her all her life. Jones is just a prima donna, remember watching him storm off sky news in a huff. Pathetic child basically like likes to wave his Im gay and I feel threatened flag whenever he is out of his depth.
Well all of that may be true but Hodge was the wrong party in this one
He was very dignified and kept making his point despite her continually interrupting her
In the end Sophie Ridge had to end the interview and go for an ad break
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
What a complete s hit show
The mood music, unless things change, is that Israel will impose a one state solution plus a car park next door. The hostages are dead in all but name, so Hamas needs to hope Iran gets involved. That will trigger the Saudi's and the US. And then the "shit show" will really start.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
No he's moved on and condemned the flag waving
They still have an Israeli international - Liel Abada
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
+ the native hipster
does the Israeli international lad still play for them?
Yup.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
They still have an Israeli international - Liel Abada
Well depending on his beliefs he won't be there long
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
What an absolute mess. I am in despair. The slaughter of innocent children on both sides is heartbreaking. This notion of a "ground offensive" in Gaza doesn't bear thinking about. Any prospect of a peaceful settlement has surely been put back for another generation at least.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
What an absolute mess. I am in despair. The slaughter of innocent children on both sides is heartbreaking. This notion of a "ground offensive" in Gaza doesn't bear thinking about. Any prospect of a peaceful settlement has surely been put back for another generation at least.
75 years since Israel was formed
That's clearly the major issue
It's not going to be sorted in our lifetimes and let's be honest probably never
Hideous reports of the butcher of young Israeli children in the news tonight which will be followed by slaughter on a mass scale in Gaza
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
What an absolute mess. I am in despair. The slaughter of innocent children on both sides is heartbreaking. This notion of a "ground offensive" in Gaza doesn't bear thinking about. Any prospect of a peaceful settlement has surely been put back for another generation at least.
Absolutely right and I'm disgusted by our country taking sides in this conflagration. I wouldn't expect any thing sensible from USA but it's revolting to see our lot take sides in this tragedy.
It's heartbreaking to see innocent Jewish lives being taken but it's equally harrowing to see innocent Palestinian lives being destroyed by unrestrained wanton violence.
I think a lot of respect needs to be shown towards the Celtic fans today for their lone voice in support of the massacre of the innocent.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Well all of that may be true but Hodge was the wrong party in this one
He was very dignified and kept making his point despite her continually interrupting her
In the end Sophie Ridge had to end the interview and go for an ad break
Margaret Hodge is an entitled, partisan bitch
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I think you need to rethink this. The mass slaughter of innocent Arabs might not bother someone as entitled as you in the slightest, but thank Goodness there are better people than you around.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Absolutely right and I'm disgusted by our country taking sides in this conflagration. I wouldn't expect any thing sensible from USA but it's revolting to see our lot take sides in this tragedy.
It's heartbreaking to see innocent Jewish lives being taken but it's equally harrowing to see innocent Palestinian lives being destroyed by unrestrained wanton violence.
I think a lot of respect needs to be shown towards the Celtic fans today for their lone voice in support of the massacre of the innocent.
supporting the massacre of the innocent, is something we should all respect, i assume we need a sarcasm emoji
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Margaret Hodge is an entitled, partisan bitch
She was completely one eyed in the interview and although Owen Jones can be an easy target she was basically saying if you don't agree with me you are supporting terrorism , it was pathetic
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
This subject makes me despair and so I steer clear of threads on it, but, although my natural sympathy is with the Palestinian people, that does not stretch to Hamas who can have no justification for what happened on Saturday. On the other hand, I can't get this feeling out of my mind that elements of the Israeli Government, particularly this Israeli Government, will be relishing what follows the weekend atrocity.
As I say, I despair and the worst thing is that history tells you that anyone who says they have an "oven ready" solution to the whole problem is either a fool or doesn't really understand what's is going on in the middle east.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
This subject makes me despair and so I steer clear of threads on it, but, although my natural sympathy is with the Palestinian people, that does not stretch to Hamas who can have no justification for what happened on Saturday. On the other hand, I can't get this feeling out of my mind that elements of the Israeli Government, particularly this Israeli Government, will be relishing what follows the weekend atrocity.
As I say, I despair and the worst thing is that history tells you that anyone who says they have an "oven ready" solution to the whole problem is either a fool or doesn't really understand what's is going on in the middle east.
Hamas have given Netanyahu carte blanche to do what he's always wanted to do with Gaza. The fact internally Netanyahu is facing criticism due to the attacks about failure of intelligence and security will also contribute to his response.
My over simplistic view is Netanyahu need Hamas and Hamas need Netanyahu. They're both central to the others political beliefs and validates the others actions.
What did Hamas hope to achieve with the attacks? It seems a ridiculous strategy and the costs which are already being felt by the people of Gaza was always going to be the outcome. Perhaps Hamas want to make Martyrs of the whole population? With most of the Western governments supporting Israels right 'to defend itself' and the barbaric nature of the Hamas attacks they could well achieve 'martyring' the whole of the Gaza.
It makes you wonder how they view their 'people'?
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
Hamas have given Netanyahu carte blanche to do what he's always wanted to do with Gaza. The fact internally Netanyahu is facing criticism due to the attacks about failure of intelligence and security will also contribute to his response.
My over simplistic view is Netanyahu need Hamas and Hamas need Netanyahu. They're both central to the others political beliefs and validates the others actions.
What did Hamas hope to achieve with the attacks? It seems a ridiculous strategy and the costs which are already being felt by the people of Gaza was always going to be the outcome. Perhaps Hamas want to make Martyrs of the whole population? With most of the Western governments supporting Israels right 'to defend itself' and the barbaric nature of the Hamas attacks they could well achieve 'martyring' the whole of the Gaza.
It makes you wonder how they view their 'people'?
I remember the same being said about ISIS and it was pointed out that they were goading the west into military action as it would create more hostility to the west among the civilian population which would inevitably suffer with any attack. That seems as good an explanation as any for what Hamas did. They must have expected a deadly response but, not only don't they care, but it might actually suit their purpose.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
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Originally Posted by
Dorcus
Margaret Hodge is an entitled, partisan bitch
Staggering, you have so much hate inside you, but thanks for letting us know.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dorcus
I think you need to rethink this. The mass slaughter of innocent Arabs might not bother someone as entitled as you in the slightest, but thank Goodness there are better people than you around.
I think you probably want to rethink this tbh.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jordi Culé
Hamas have given Netanyahu carte blanche to do what he's always wanted to do with Gaza. The fact internally Netanyahu is facing criticism due to the attacks about failure of intelligence and security will also contribute to his response.
My over simplistic view is Netanyahu need Hamas and Hamas need Netanyahu. They're both central to the others political beliefs and validates the others actions.
What did Hamas hope to achieve with the attacks? It seems a ridiculous strategy and the costs which are already being felt by the people of Gaza was always going to be the outcome. Perhaps Hamas want to make Martyrs of the whole population? With most of the Western governments supporting Israels right 'to defend itself' and the barbaric nature of the Hamas attacks they could well achieve 'martyring' the whole of the Gaza.
It makes you wonder how they view their 'people'?
Nutter on the right who hates Arabs Mr Netanyahu?
Nutter on the left who hates Jews Mr Hamas ?
A plague on your houses the both of you
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
pipster
Staggering, you have so much hate inside you, but thanks for letting us know.
Not hate; insight.
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Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
+ the native hipster
supporting the massacre of the innocent, is something we should all respect, i assume we need a sarcasm emoji
Why would we need a sarcasm emoji when we've got you?