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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
How much more does England spend than it generates in taxes?
England has the resources to pay back any borrowing the government may utilise, Wales does not.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Gifaffe
Easy one this, the Marquess of Bute poured his Scottish money into building Cardiff Dock. Pretty sure he spent a lot of the profit on Cardiff Castle and building Castell Coch.
the housing provided to the dockers and miners was some of the best quality in the UK, that's thanks to the Crawshays and Butes. both families made lots of money, but didn't keep it just to themselves, unlike other Victorian/Edwardian industrialists.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
England has the resources to pay back any borrowing the government may utilise, Wales does not.
I presume the answer is more than 15bn then
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
I presume the answer is more than 15bn then
I understand what you're getting at. If the English deficit of taxes against spend was £275bn then per capita things would be equal. however, I doubt the English deficit is anywhere near that, as you are probably aware too, so your point isn't really valid.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
I understand what you're getting at. If the English deficit of taxes against spend was £275bn then per capita things would be equal. however, I doubt the English deficit is anywhere near that, as you are probably aware too, so your point isn't really valid.
It's likely to be around that this year!
As a % that kind of deficit for Wales wouldn't be unprecedented, and other countries have managed that previously and come out the other side much better.
The idea being if you have an economy run to benefit Wales then we will see increased growth, and reduce the defecit.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
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Originally Posted by
Vindec
The figures don't back this up as I indicated (with link) in an earlier post. Wales receives far more money from England than it generates in taxes. From memory the gap is around £15bn.
A big pinch of salt would have to be taken comparing both England and Wales finances, England obviously generates more as the population is massive but it doesn't include a lot of companies financials for Wales and Scotland directly as they report from their HQ's, which are nearly always in London. Also including that an independent Scotland and Wales would have different spending priorities than Westminster does, as smaller nations without the falsehood of being 'greater than everyone else' as Westminster always points out, expenditure such as e.g trident, HS2 and the high military costs would never be needed.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
It's likely to be around that this year!
I knew you'd come back with that. Yes well this year is a one off, and I reckon Wales fiscal gap will be considerably more than £15bn this year, so swings and roundabouts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
As a % that kind of deficit for Wales wouldn't be unprecedented, and other countries have managed that previously and come out the other side much better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
The idea being if you have an economy run to benefit Wales then we will see increased growth, and reduce the defecit.
with all due respect the Welsh government have baulked at the idea of investing in the M4 relief road - a road almost everyone agrees is needed.
We have a fiscal gap of £15bn, we have 1 in 4 working in the public sector, compared to the UK average of 1 in 5. Assuming 1.5m people in Wales are working, that means we have 375k jobs in the public sector when it should be around 300k.
Wales economy is currently around £60bn, of which almost half is government spend. If we are to become independent, and by that I include financial independence, we need to increase our tax receipts by 25% and also increase private sector jobs by at least 6.7%. That's before we consider our share of the national debt. That's a huge burden to place on the taxpayer.
you've argued for following Ireland, but theirs is a low tax economy, certainly apropos of corporates. How do you see Wales dealing with its fiscal shortfall, its requirement to fund public services and jobs, whilst at the same time trying to be as competitive as the Irish?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wozza16
A big pinch of salt would have to be taken comparing both England and Wales finances, England obviously generates more as the population is massive but it doesn't include a lot of companies financials for Wales and Scotland directly as they report from their HQ's, which are nearly always in London. Also including that an independent Scotland and Wales would have different spending priorities than Westminster does, as smaller nations without the falsehood of being 'greater than everyone else' as Westminster always points out, expenditure such as e.g trident, HS2 and the high military costs would never be needed.
wrong, GVA is based on output generated in the region. Since the start of devolution, Wales GVA has worsened compared to all bar one of the English regions.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wozza16
expenditure such as e.g trident, HS2 and the high military costs would never be needed.
So you're saying we'd remain outside NATO and make no contribution to the defence of our country, as well as stopping all infrastructure spending such as barrages, electrification of rail lines, major road projects, money losing airports etc?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Far more negatives.
But are they outweighed by no more Boris , Cummings , Haccock , Coffey , Patel , Raab , Jenrick , Williamson , Whatley etc.
Farage and the UKIP loons gone.
For me thats enough at the moment.
Would I now vote Independence which ive always been 100% against.
Yes thanks to this lot.
Theres not going to be a vote though.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
I just don't get the point.
Maybe I'm just not Welsh enough, I've always been happy to identify as being Welsh and British, I have lived over the border previously but felt this way long before that. I know I have as much in common with someone from Bristol as I do Swansea.
I just don't get it, what am I missing?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Gifaffe
So you're saying we'd remain outside NATO and make no contribution to the defence of our country, as well as stopping all infrastructure spending such as barrages, electrification of rail lines, major road projects, money losing airports etc?
Of course he's not saying that.
We can invest in infrastructure projects that will help the economy, but HS2 doesn't benefit us at all, neither does trident.
I'd love to see a severn barrage at some point in the future.
Schemes like this
http://euanmearns.com/the-severn-barrage-revisited/
Suggest they can generate up to 10% of the UKs energy at a very cheap price in comparison with other methods.
That could be enough to provide the whole of wales with cheap energy (which will be attractive to industry) and have enough left over to sell to England.
Even better if it could also include a road bridge to Lavernock or Nash point, as that could really boost the area.
This kind of project SHOULD be easier to achieve in a union like the UK, but it is so London centric that I don't think it would ever happen.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
It's all a moot point anyway, as any such vote would fail spectacularly.
There are huge numbers of English people living in Wales who would never want it, so it isn't going to happen.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
It's all a moot point anyway, as any such vote would fail spectacularly.
There are huge numbers of English people living in Wales who would never want it, so it isn't going to happen.
If Trump can be president anything is possible. This govt is so completely useless anything could happen.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
So not independent then, just independent of England.
I see.
An alliance of equal partners. Unlike the relationship with England
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
An alliance of equal partners. Unlike the relationship with England
With Germany and France being more equal than others.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
The Gifaffe
Easy one this, the Marquess of Bute poured his Scottish money into building Cardiff Dock. Pretty sure he spent a lot of the profit on Cardiff Castle and building Castell Coch.
So not that he made a lot of money off the back a Welsh natural reseource?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trigger
I just don't get the point.
Maybe I'm just not Welsh enough, I've always been happy to identify as being Welsh and British, I have lived over the border previously but felt this way long before that. I know I have as much in common with someone from Bristol as I do Swansea.
I just don't get it, what am I missing?
This is it for me. I'm Welsh and British.
I have more in common with someone from Bristol than I do from Bangor
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
With Germany and France being more equal than others.
The way the EU looked after the interests of Ireland in the Brexit discussions show that there is strength in partnership. Unfortunately they hadn't bargained on Boris being a lying coniving bastard. Big mistake that. Still waiting to hear on what basis you regard Wales is doing well.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Then you haven't savoured the delights of the whole of Wales supporting the national team
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
With Germany and France being more equal than others.
there's a big difference between the amount og control that westminster holds over the uk compared to brussels over europe
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
there's a big difference between the amount og control that westminster holds over the uk compared to brussels over europe
If Wales was part of the EU it would be a small nation which was part of a larger union. It would also have laws made for it by officials in a capital city that wasn't Welsh.
How does that differ from what we have now?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
The way the EU looked after the interests of Ireland in the Brexit discussions show that there is strength in partnership. Unfortunately they hadn't bargained on Boris being a lying coniving bastard. Big mistake that. Still waiting to hear on what basis you regard Wales is doing well.
great, so why aren't you happy with the partnership we have with England? We have a much greater say in UK affairs than we ever would in EU affairs, we have access to our largest trading partner with no customs, duties, excise or trade barriers of any kind whatsoever. We have freedom of movement and no language barriers at all.
What benefits would being in the EU give that being in the UK won't?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
Then you haven't savoured the delights of the whole of Wales supporting the national team
I've read this many times and I have no idea what it is you are trying to say.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Wozza16
A big pinch of salt would have to be taken comparing both England and Wales finances, England obviously generates more as the population is massive but it doesn't include a lot of companies financials for Wales and Scotland directly as they report from their HQ's, which are nearly always in London. Also including that an independent Scotland and Wales would have different spending priorities than Westminster does, as smaller nations without the falsehood of being 'greater than everyone else' as Westminster always points out, expenditure such as e.g trident, HS2 and the high military costs would never be needed.
Am I the only person that thinks HS2 is a good thing?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
If Wales was part of the EU it would be a small nation which was part of a larger union. It would also have laws made for it by officials in a capital city that wasn't Welsh.
How does that differ from what we have now?
It isn't even comparable.
Are you really suggesting that say the netherlands are as much controlled by the EU as we are by Westminster?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
So not independent then, just independent of England.
I see.
You asked how inward investment would occur. I proffered a solution.
You've now changed tack with some vague statement about "independence".
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
great, so why aren't you happy with the partnership we have with England? We have a much greater say in UK affairs than we ever would in EU affairs, we have access to our largest trading partner with no customs, duties, excise or trade barriers of any kind whatsoever. We have freedom of movement and no language barriers at all.
What benefits would being in the EU give that being in the UK won't?
You're basically giving the reasons why the UK leaving the EU is such folly, but here's my response.
Free trade with hundreds of millions. Freedom to live, work and study in Europe. I reckon that, whatever we lost on financially from Westminster would be more than made up in EU grants to improve infrastructure and make Wales a better place to do business and create jobs. Instead of an insular island that thinks it is a world leader, we'd be a part of something much bigger.
If there was independence, I reckon it wouldn't be a hard independence like some want for the UK from the EU. I think that if Wales and Scotland were both independent and were members of the EU, England would have to rethink its relationship with the EU. However, there would be something quite poetic about English people needing visas to come and live, work and holiday in Wales!
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
Whats your point? We've already established Ireland's GDP is vastly over inflated as a result of the double Irish.
No, you asserted Irish GDP is overstated. I don't think Irish statisticians are any worse than English ones. Whether GDP is representative is a different issue.
Just to save me another post. Why have you assiduously ignored Ireland's HDI ranking? I think it's probably because it doesn't fit with your one-eyed narrative.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
What benefits would being in the EU give that being in the UK won't?
You're surely not serious. Look up the size of the EU single market and compare with England.
That's one of the silliest comments you've made thus far.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Trigger
I just don't get the point.
Maybe I'm just not Welsh enough, I've always been happy to identify as being Welsh and British, I have lived over the border previously but felt this way long before that. I know I have as much in common with someone from Bristol as I do Swansea.
I just don't get it, what am I missing?
I used to be a very strong nationalist, Welsh and nothing, as i left school i would go on pro-wales marches, my dream was a independent Wales, the FWA and MAC were inspirational to a young blue matt, fighting for our freedom, I then met a few gogs on a march, had a few beers and they really didnt like anyone from South Wales, I was welsh through and through , but to these gogs i was almost English, afterall i was from Barry, it was a eye opener for me
I then put my welshness into folliowing cardiff and wales, that was enough for me, i voted PC, job done, as welsh as welsh can be
I then met some girl on holiday, she was from Cheltenham ( so from the evil empire ) she way out of my league so i ignored the fact that she wasnt welsh, I then began to realise that it was all rather stupid, Welsh or English, it makes no difference, look at the current issue with Andy Burnham ( the great north / south divide ), Someone somewhere will decide they are hard done by by someone else, it is always someone else's fault,
I then moved down here ( near Bath ) and not many English dislike the Welsh, when we were doing well in Euro16, alot of English were supporting the Welsh, Wales is alot of people down here 2nd team, they want us to do well, afterall they are our neighbours
You can be Welsh and still British, the English are not really the evil empire
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
1. 0.3% of the Welsh population are members of YesCymru
2. After Northern Ireland, Wales receives the most per capita under the Barnett settlement
3. Wales has the best representation of MPs per capita of all the 4 home nations
Wales doesn't do too bad being part of the union.
Let Scotland and Northern Ireland go, we can lap up the benefits.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
I used to be a very strong nationalist, Welsh and nothing, as i left school i would go on pro-wales marches, my dream was a independent Wales, the FWA and MAC were inspirational to a young blue matt, fighting for our freedom, I then met a few gogs on a march, had a few beers and they really didnt like anyone from South Wales, I was welsh through and through , but to these gogs i was almost English, afterall i was from Barry, it was a eye opener for me
I then put my welshness into folliowing cardiff and wales, that was enough for me, i voted PC, job done, as welsh as welsh can be
I then met some girl on holiday, she was from Cheltenham ( so from the evil empire ) she way out of my league so i ignored the fact that she wasnt welsh, I then began to realise that it was all rather stupid, Welsh or English, it makes no difference, look at the current issue with Andy Burnham ( the great north / south divide ), Someone somewhere will decide they are hard done by by someone else, it is always someone else's fault,
I then moved down here ( near Bath ) and not many English dislike the Welsh, when we were doing well in Euro16, alot of English were supporting the Welsh, Wales is alot of people down here 2nd team, they want us to do well, afterall they are our neighbours
You can be Welsh and still British, the English are not really the evil empire
Folk have a massive chip on the shoulder when it comes to England.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
If Wales was part of the EU it would be a small nation which was part of a larger union. It would also have laws made for it by officials in a capital city that wasn't Welsh.
How does that differ from what we have now?
I actually think small nations in the EU do better than Wales does vis-a-vis England. For instance, if Wales voted for a socialist government that's what it would get not a Tory one 150 miles away. Small nations are also over-represented in EU decision-making bodies.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Let Scotland and Northern Ireland go, we can lap up the benefits.
What benefits? As things stand Wales can join with Scotland in some decisions and form a united front. On our own it will be Wales vs England and England will have total control once they've got rid of the Senedd. With less to fight against, the Barnett formula will be replaced by something which makes Wales worse off.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
I don't have the data to back this up I wonder if;
Brexit supporter = No to independence
EU supporter = Yes to independence
This, I think is one of the most insightful comments in this thread.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
great, so why aren't you happy with the partnership we have with England? We have a much greater say in UK affairs than we ever would in EU affairs, we have access to our largest trading partner with no customs, duties, excise or trade barriers of any kind whatsoever. We have freedom of movement and no language barriers at all.
What benefits would being in the EU give that being in the UK won't?
That's not what you've just argued. You've cited England as our partners. The UK is NI, Wales, Scotland and England. The reunification of Ireland is closer now than ever before. Scotland will likely become its own nation state. So investing in closer ties to an old-boys-network of old public school chums doesn't sound that appealing. But surely you aren't equating the EU and all the benefits of freedom of movement, trade etc with a trip across the Severn Bridge to Bristol (which, by-the-way, we could do anyway, and then decide to continue on to any European city to 'trade' freely if we so desired before - as the UK - we put the barrel in our mouth and pulled the trigger)?
I do wonder if people like yourself have ever worked in other European countries, speak any other languages or work in a profession that is Pan-European, global? Millions of people have had their European Citizenship stripped from them. I gave up feeling British after 2016. I now only consider myself Welsh. I have zero identity with any Westminster government anymore.
I want Wales to break away from crown, church and state-run systems.
There is something else too - you keep banging on about feasibility studies and the fact that the M4 bypass isn't going ahead. Two things - feasibility studies are just that, to find out if something is feasible, the other is that they can 'save' a lot of money too. It was decided that it wasn't feasible and I (and many others - see what I did there) am really pleased about that from an environmental point of view. We need more affordable social-housing in Wales and investment in public transport links way before an M4 bypass. We need to make sure that every decision is an environmental one first and start thinking of future generations instead of continuing to fck things up like this https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ke-way-for-hs2
If that isn't enough. Try reminding yourself that very few people thought the re-unification of Germany, the abolition of apartheid, the fall of the USSR were ever possible. All these things have happened in my lifetime.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
:facepalm: edit for my previous post should read
Quote:
(before we put the barrel in our mouth and pulled the trigger)
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
life on mars
Folk have a massive chip on the shoulder when it comes to England.
Surely you mean horse collar.