Huge fuss today

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Originally Posted by TH63

Well in this case the guilty party did exactly that, so I'm not sure what your point is.

I wouldn't say it to Samson Lee myself, largely because he'd flatten me. Which is what Warren Gatland alluded to in his earlier statement that he got a verbal mauling over.

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Just that context is key. I suspect those who seem to think the term is generally not offensive would probably hesitate to use it themselves directly for fear of causing genuine offence. And rightly so. So sweeping generalisations don't apply here and common sense does.

Meanwhile.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-35841255

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

So your actual point is people who get racially abused shouldn't be so thin skinned?

You're focussing too much on the word itself rather than the connotation that comes with someone saying that to you. It isn't as simple being called a name.

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I think you're missing my point on purpose.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Since the 70s, the number of people using these terms appears to have dropped a lot. Would it have dropped more if the attitude was 'just ignore it' instead?

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It's true that the number of people using the terms has dropped, which is probably caused by the increase of political correctness and the public fallout that comes from using the terms rather than curing the underlying cause of it.

Of course, "growing a thicker skin" won't cure the underlying cause either but at least the perpetrators will learn that they can no longer get a rise out of the victim by using that type of language.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Is seems rich a man who has constant messageboard flounces, goes on at other posters for following him around and has actually turned up for a fight with a poster with a copy of that day's newspaper says people over react to racist slurs.

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Ah, here we are. You've got frustrated and now you've abandoned the argument in order to lash out personally. Kind of ironic considering the thread topic. Apparently there's a limit to how much you actually care about people being offended.

Let me respond by saying that I once flounced, have had a few weirdo stalkers on here (not sure what your problem with that is tbh) and that the poster I went to meet for a fight was on here PMing people pretending to be a gangster from Ely and threatening the families of posters, amongst other things.

Why not just ignore it?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Why not just ignore it?

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Ignore what?

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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi

Ah, here we are. You've got frustrated and now you've abandoned the argument in order to lash out personally. Kind of ironic considering the thread topic. Apparently there's a limit to how much you actually care about people being offended.

Let me respond by saying that I once flounced, have had a few weirdo stalkers on here (not sure what your problem with that is tbh) and that the poster I went to meet for a fight was on here PMing people pretending to be a gangster from Ely and threatening the families of posters, amongst other things.

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That's what happens when suppressed feelings rise to the surface :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi

It's true that the number of people using the terms has dropped, which is probably caused by the increase of political correctness and the public fallout that comes from using the terms rather than curing the underlying cause of it.

Of course, "growing a thicker skin" won't cure the underlying cause either but at least the perpetrators will learn that they can no longer get a rise out of the victim by using that type of language.

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It depends if people are using the language to get a rise or because, which I suspect is more common, they just use **** and gyppo as the words for the man in the shop or the badly dressed guy.

To give an example to my post, a few years ago an rac man came to help me and said "thank god its your car, I thought it was going to be them pakis" indicating some Asian men. He wasn't trying to get a rise, it's just how he saw them.

People doing what I did, which was say absolutely nothing, don't help at all.

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Originally Posted by lardy

To give an example to my post, a few years ago an rac man came to help me and said "thank god its your car, I thought it was going to be them pakis" indicating some Asian men. He wasn't trying to get a rise, it's just how he saw them.

People doing what I did, which was say absolutely nothing, don't help at all.

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To me that's very obviously racist.

I guess context is everything.

By the way, why is calling an Australian an "aussie" ok?

the 1990s was full of racist songs, check this out

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Originally Posted by lardy

To give an example to my post, a few years ago an rac man came to help me and said "thank god its your car, I thought it was going to be them pakis" indicating some Asian men. He wasn't trying to get a rise, it's just how he saw them.

People doing what I did, which was say absolutely nothing, don't help at all.

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So you wish you would have called him out on using the term "****" rather than his obvious dislike of doing any work for them. The fact he doesn't want to work for them is the most racist part imo.

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Originally Posted by TH63

To me that's very obviously racist.

I guess context is everything.

By the way, why is calling an Australian an "aussie" ok?

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It's because of the context, surely. Australians call themselves aussies, it's a cute name that they embrace.

As far as I know, the word **** was born when people went ****-bashing (would be interested if anyone finds it was used before the 60s) and doesn't just refer to Pakistanis but anyone from that area of the world.

As you say, context.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi

So you wish you would have called him out on using the term "****" rather than his obvious dislike of doing any work for them. The fact he doesn't want to work for them is the most racist part imo.

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He would probably have worked for them, I didn't believe for a second he'd refuse to. But I don't know this 100% so I can only judge him on his words and not actions. Guessing that he might not have wanted to help is not racist, just an assumption.

My point, which I'm sure you actually know, is not my own regrets but that by doing absolutely nothing (which you're suggesting will help) I changed absolutely nothing. If anything, I probably validated his racism a little bit.

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Originally Posted by lardy

It's because of the context, surely. Australians call themselves aussies, it's a cute name that they embrace.

As far as I know, the word **** was born when people went ****-bashing (would be interested if anyone finds it was used before the 60s) and doesn't just refer to Pakistanis but anyone from that area of the world.

As you say, context.

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Context yes, during the 70's i was told to do down the pakis, over to the chinkies etc. etc.it was simple shortening of names, during the 70's i heard Richie Benaud refer to the Pakistani team as pakis during live commo on TV, no outrage from anyone, looking back perhaps the liberal use of these words and others like them were wrong however, was the country more racist back then? when all these nasty words were being banded about ?, i'd suggest not but that maybe because the medium wasn't about to complain about it

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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi

It's true that the number of people using the terms has dropped, which is probably caused by the increase of political correctness and the public fallout that comes from using the terms rather than curing the underlying cause of it.

Of course, "growing a thicker skin" won't cure the underlying cause either but at least the perpetrators will learn that they can no longer get a rise out of the victim by using that type of language.

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It's easy to be dismissive of political correctness from our privileged position, but it is probably a small price to pay for the genuine improvement in many people's lives due to the widespread change in behaviour towards minority groups, compared to say 40 or 50 years ago. In its original form the term did not by default mean excessive, contrived behaviour but has come to be associated with that.

A big part of this is basic, day-to-day courtesy and consideration. I think a lot people in the 70s would have taken that regardless of suspected motives. It obviously goes too far at times but I think overall has been a positive development.

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Originally Posted by lardy

To give an example to my post, a few years ago an rac man came to help me and said "thank god its your car, I thought it was going to be them pakis" indicating some Asian men. He wasn't trying to get a rise, it's just how he saw them.

People doing what I did, which was say absolutely nothing, don't help at all.

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You own a Toyota?

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Originally Posted by Jimmy the Jock

You own a Toyota?

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This will amaze you but it was a Focus. Probably the only Focus in the country that ever needed to be seen by the RAC.

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Originally Posted by Baloo

It's easy to be dismissive of political correctness from our privileged position, but it is probably a small price to pay for the genuine improvement in many people's lives due to the widespread change in behaviour towards minority groups, compared to say 40 or 50 years ago. In its original form the term did not by default mean excessive, contrived behaviour but has come to be associated with that.

A big part of this is basic, day-to-day courtesy and consideration. I think a lot people in the 70s would have taken that regardless of suspected motives. It obviously goes too far at times but I think overall has been a positive development.

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Exactly my thought on the matter. Stewart Lee did a really good bit that had a similar message.

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Originally Posted by Nelsonca61

Context yes, during the 70's i was told to do down the pakis, over to the chinkies etc. etc.it was simple shortening of names, during the 70's i heard Richie Benaud refer to the Pakistani team as pakis during live commo on TV, no outrage from anyone, looking back perhaps the liberal use of these words and others like them were wrong however, was the country more racist back then? when all these nasty words were being banded about ?, i'd suggest not but that maybe because the medium wasn't about to complain about it

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Interesting question, were we more racist? I wasn't an adult in the 70s so couldn't say. But when you see some newspapers and media today then I'd guess we can be just as racist but perhaps a little more subtle about it.

I do wonder if this would even be getting talked about if Wales had won the game

I would imagine so. Can't see why not.

Nice to see some decent, sometimes mature discussion.

Drip drip drip

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Originally Posted by Kiffa

I do wonder if this would even be getting talked about if Wales had won the game

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Nope

I see that the fat lady hasn't quite sang on this one yet.

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Originally Posted by Elysium

I see that the fat lady hasn't quite sang on this one yet.

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no real surprise

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Originally Posted by Kiffa

no real surprise

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No surprise at all. Hopefully, he will get what he deserves rather than the previous whitewash.

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Originally Posted by Elysium

No surprise at all. Hopefully, he will get what he deserves rather than the previous whitewash.

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Isn't 4 weeks for the offence in question?

It's really quite an open and shut case imo

4 weeks is the entry point, it could possibly be far more than that and probably will be. Rugby needs to make a real stance and be seen to be strong on this matter.

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Originally Posted by Elysium

4 weeks is the entry point, it could possibly be far more than that and probably will be. Rugby needs to make a real stance and be seen to be strong on this matter.

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whats the most recent comparable incident?

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Originally Posted by Kiffa

whats the most recent comparable incident?

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No idea.