Gwent records the biggest increase in religious and racial hate crimes since Referendum

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Originally Posted by LordKenwyne

Freedom of speech is what this entire conversation is about......

What questions do you want answered then?. You've skirted past my comments to carry on whining as your opinion is so crap that is what you are resorting to.

I've put forward my opinion on the term. And the reasons why white people shouldn't use it.

What have you put forward other than " I'm white and have done nothing wrong "?.

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And you still haven't answered the question, instead you've just resorted to telling me how I'm "whining" and my "opinion is crap" rather than just answer it.

And how on earth is it somehow bad of me to say "I'm white and have done nothing wrong"?

My Thoughts on this are quite simple.

White people using the word sound like uneducated idiots.

The same applies for black people.

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Originally Posted by TISS

No one should be born with any greater rights than anyone else. Are present day Africans responsible for their forefathers enslaving parts of their local populace and selling them to the Europeans - no of course not. Are present day Europeans responsible for the actions of their forefathers. Again of course not.

As long as people look to differentiate for whatever reason, racism will exist.

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THANK YOU for putting the point more eloquently than I apparently can.

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Originally Posted by LordKenwyne

Racism in America is alive and well. Nothing to do with the past.

The UK is completely different.

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Alarmingly so.

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Originally Posted by LordKenwyne

The white race has historically treated black people like complete dirt so I think we'll let them have this one little word eh!.

They are popularising it for a reason.

Instead of being something they are ashamed of they are wearing it with pride so racists feel the idiots.

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perhaps you are not aware that it was Africans who rounded up their fellow Africans and sold them into bondage. Man has always treated his fellow man with disdain and contempt. Slavery isn't a modern American invention.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Because of the connotations and context of the use of the word, it has been reclaimed by black people and has a different meaning in that sense, unfortunatley it is still a slur and comes across that way when used by anyone else. There are thousands of articles that cover it a lot more succinctly than I ever could.

It's the same reason south park can get away with anti semitic characters wihtout getting grief. It isn't just the N word there are loads of examples of groups taking slurs and reclaiming them, it doesn't mean they stop being slurs when used by others though.

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you reference connotation. Here's a point. Whilst the MP should have known better, I certainly don't think her intended use was racist, given the point she tried to make. however, there is also the point she might just might be a closet racist and instead of using more appropriate less offensive terms, she chose one which she knew may upset.

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Originally Posted by LordKenwyne

You haven't been victim of racism either though have you.

So how can you comment on it?. We can't put ourselves in the shoes of black people in America and Western countries.

I think this is where that whole annoying idea of "white privilege" comes from. You are complaining of a lack of equality between white and black people, where white people are the victims :hehe: Can you see how ridiculous this looks?.

Just because you haven't been racist doesn't me you can go around shouting N***** from the roof tops as that would mean equality.

Why do you care anyway?. Black people have been the victims of this word. Why do you want to have the freedom to use it? Why?.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/...b0d5d9049eef86

And the links in the article

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I've been the victim of bigotry (I don't call it racism as I can't see how the same race can be 'racist'). I have also been on the end of jokes where some may take offence. The two are different and need to be treated as such.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi

And you still haven't answered the question, instead you've just resorted to telling me how I'm "whining" and my "opinion is crap" rather than just answer it.

And how on earth is it somehow bad of me to say "I'm white and have done nothing wrong"?

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Read that article. They are requesting you don't say it. Not beating the shit into you if you say it.

You think you should have unrestrained right to say whatever you want because you, personally, have done nothing wrong. White people using it in the past has led it to have the connotations that it has. You didn't cause that, but you understand what those connotations are. So, I think it would be fair to ask you to not use it?.

My replies have answered your question multiply times by the way. The reasons why black people use it cover why white people should probably not:hehe:

Would you be happy for me to abuse your family with whatever wordage I felt like?.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

White people can be victims of racism but very rarely are, especially throughout history. Racism against white people is obviously bad but surely you can see why it often isn't as severe as racism against black people? If someone called you a white bastard on your way to work today would it really bother you that much? You'd think the guy was a dick but you wouldn't really mind I'm sure.

The reason is white people have never been opressed throughout history for being white, white people weren't likely to be used as slaves in the western world, white people aren't less likely to get a job in the western world because of the colour of their skin. Unfortunalety throughout history racism against black people has been often and severe and still exists in different forms today.

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tell that to 6m jews.

you appear to be another individual who doesn't appreciate it was Africans enslaving Africans and selling them into bondage. It wasn't the European doing the dirty work. No group of people come out of this episode with a clear conscience.

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Originally Posted by TISS

you reference connotation. Here's a point. Whilst the MP should have known better, I certainly don't think her intended use was racist, given the point she tried to make. however, there is also the point she might just might be a closet racist and instead of using more appropriate less offensive terms, she chose one which she knew may upset.

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I sort of agree she probably didn't mean it in a racist way but the fact is it is still probably the most racist thing you can say and you should probably avoid saying it, especially if you are in a position of power. If either of us said that at work we would more than likely be sacked.

Also there is a reasonable argument that if she's comfortable saying that in public what is she like in private?

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Originally Posted by TISS

perhaps you are not aware that it was Africans who rounded up their fellow Africans and sold them into bondage. Man has always treated his fellow man with disdain and contempt. Slavery isn't a modern American invention.

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Yes I saw a documentary about the arab slave trade the other day. Not that much but I'm not ignorant.

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Originally Posted by Dr Lecter

My Thoughts on this are quite simple.

White people using the word sound like uneducated idiots.

The same applies for black people.

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Spot on Dr.

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Originally Posted by TISS

tell that to 6m jews

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Yes but they weren't opressed because they were white they were opressed by other whites for being jewish, I suppose that's the difference.

Calling a Jew a K*** is as bas as a non black person using the n word in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by TH63

My logic, and I suspect the logic of many is simply this.

The word was developed, by white slave owners in the American Southern States, as a derivative of the Spanish word for black. The word continued to be used by white racists in America, and beyond for many users, as an insult to black people.

Now, of course, keen observers of this board will understand that while you are white, you're not American, you don't own a plantation and you're not a racist.

But because people who looked like you, and me, used that term in such a pejorative way, then it is inappropriate for us to use it because of the offense it causes. I think it would be inappropriate for whites, asians, southern europeans, native Americans, etc to use it. That's not a definition of racist that I recognise.

Personally, I don't think anyone should use the word, but if anyone can "get away with it" then it would be a black person.

TOBW's sheepshagger analogy isn't perfect, as he himself admitted, but if some wurzel came up to you screaming "you sheepshagging bastard" in your face, chances are he'd get a slap, meanwhile, thousands of us us sing that's "who we are" every week, and that's ok.

I have a vague recollection of you recounting a tale from your stand-up tale where you used that word and it didn't end well. Is that the basis for your stance in this thread?

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OK, once again, I do not require an explanation as to why the word is deemed offensive.

I know it is offensive, I know why.

Again, what I am asking, and this is as simple as I can word the question, How is it not racist for my specific race to have its vocabulary limited?

And no, this isn't about the time I used the word in my stand up set. Croesy Blue nailed it earlier in this thread when he said the offensiveness of the word depends on the context.

Here's a bit of wisdom for you, we should decide if the word ****** is offensive depending on the intent of the person using it.

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Originally Posted by TISS

No one should be born with any greater rights than anyone else. Are present day Africans responsible for their forefathers enslaving parts of their local populace and selling them to the Europeans - no of course not. Are present day Europeans responsible for the actions of their forefathers. Again of course not.

As long as people look to differentiate for whatever reason, racism will exist.

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But white people still are born with more rights than black people, especially in the USA.

Even in the uk a black person no matter how educated is two thirds less likely to be given a job than an equally educated white person.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi

THANK YOU for putting the point more eloquently than I apparently can.

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Yes because defending the use of any term, even a term used for hate crime, would lead to equality.

Everyone agrees with what TISS said. If only the world were as easy and binary as that suggestion.

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Originally Posted by LordKenwyne

Racism in America is alive and well. Nothing to do with the past.

The UK is completely different.

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I don't disagree. I'm not sure of the point you are trying to make. Racists come in many forms, you don't have to use the word n*****r or any other crass term to be racist. It is more about how you treat people and how you see them than any words you use.

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Originally Posted by LordKenwyne

Read that article. They are requesting you don't say it. Not beating the shit into you if you say it.

You think you should have unrestrained right to say whatever you want because you, personally, have done nothing wrong. White people using it in the past has led it to have the connotations that it has. You didn't cause that, but you understand what those connotations are. So, I think it would be fair to ask you to not use it?.

My replies have answered your question multiply times by the way. The reasons why black people use it cover why white people should probably not:hehe:

Would you be happy for me to abuse your family with whatever wordage I felt like?.

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Again, at no point have I said I should have the "unrestrained right to say whatever I want".

The amount of times in this thread you've attributed statements to me falsely, I feel like you're having an argument with someone else completely. In fact, I'm going to stop talking to you now.

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Originally Posted by TISS

I've been the victim of bigotry (I don't call it racism as I can't see how the same race can be 'racist'). I have also been on the end of jokes where some may take offence. The two are different and need to be treated as such.

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stop wearing stupid hats then :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi

OK, once again, I do not require an explanation as to why the word is deemed offensive.

I know it is offensive, I know why.

Again, what I am asking, and this is as simple as I can word the question, How is it not racist for my specific race to have its vocabulary limited?

And no, this isn't about the time I used the word in my stand up set. Croesy Blue nailed it earlier in this thread when he said the offensiveness of the word depends on the context.

Here's a bit of wisdom for you, we should decide if the word ****** is offensive depending on the intent of the person using it.

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But to black people a white person using it always has racist connotations due to the history. I think this is the point we find difficult to understand, I've been to a couple of lectures about it and I always had the same view point as you but I've come to understand I can't understand how a black person feels when a white person uses that word.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi

Again, at no point have I said I should have the "unrestrained right to say whatever I want".

The amount of times in this thread you've attributed statements to me falsely, I feel like you're having an argument with someone else completely. In fact, I'm going to stop talking to you now.

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So what are you moaning about?.

"Some" Black people request you don't use the term. That fits into the the "restrained right of what you say".

Like if you were in Iran or Turkey and you were calling people Arabs. They'd request you wouldn't.

Again, there is no written law that states the term is banned for white people. They say it regularly. It comes down to personal opinion, like any other use of words. Like the fact you or me would kick off if people were swearing at a family member.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

But white people still are born with more rights than black people, especially in the USA.

Even in the uk a black person no matter how educated is two thirds less likely to be given a job than an equally educated white person.

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I don't disagree with you either. I'm also not sure of the point you are trying to make. Their is social injustice - we all know that. Quite a lot of people are left on the scrap heap and told they won't ever amount to much. There is much work to be done, both here, in the UK and in the world in general.

Is this the most respectful discussion we've ever had on ccmb? :hehe:

In this day and age using a line which could directly be taken from '12 years a Slave' is pretty ****ing stupid.
Even more so when this woman has a a say in all our affairs.

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Originally Posted by Packerman

stop wearing stupid hats then :hehe:

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where is Mrs R's 'you over there'...

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

But to black people a white person using it always has racist connotations due to the history. I think this is the point we find difficult to understand, I've been to a couple of lectures about it and I always had the same view point as you but I've come to understand I can't understand how a black person feels when a white person uses that word.

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I remember reading that Samuel L Jackson asked one of his co-stars to call him a n****r, so he could get into character. Not sure what film it was (maybe time to kill). I also saw the same actor in another film tell his high school basket ball players under no terms do they use the same word. It is a complex issue

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Originally Posted by TISS

I don't disagree with you either. I'm also not sure of the point you are trying to make. Their is social injustice - we all know that. Quite a lot of people are left on the scrap heap and told they won't ever amount to much. There is much work to be done, both here, in the UK and in the world in general.

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I agree a lot of work needs to be done in the uk, many working class people are treated like absolute shit and are more or less forgotten about.

But we also shouldn't ignore that a black person from the same class statistically has even less chance.

I think the country should be striving to improve the lives of everyone and the equality for all races and sexes.

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Originally Posted by TISS

Bob

You say ordinary rules don't apply because of a person's skin colour. That is the very definition of racism. I know you don't intend for it to be racist, but when we start treating people differently and allowing them to act differently to each other based solely on skin tone, then we are promulgating race distinction via the backdoor.

Either the word is acceptable to all or none at all.

The way Africans were treated was a crime against humanity, not just a crime against africans. Africans betrayed Africans, Europeans abused that betrayal.

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Don't agree with your first paragraph at all because when it comes to the colour of someone's skin, I cannot think of one descriptive or made up word off the top of my head that is definitely used in a complimentary way - it seems the best we can hope for is just to call them by that colour, so white, black and redskin are seen as fairly neutral terms (at least I think they are, but I may be wrong) and I suppose something like Caucasian falls into the same category.

Many other words would be viewed as an insult though by the group the word described and it seems to me that the large majority are names given to dark skinned people by those with paler skins. The n word is unusual in that it is a word that some blacks have no problem with using in certain contexts, It's true that there are very many blacks who disagree with this, but, undoubtedly, we're talking about a word that involves nuances depending on the colour of the skin of the person using it - the reaction by the person the word is directed at can differ greatly depending on those nuances, so we are talking about a word that can be interpreted differently no matter what you claim.

Apparently there are white rap artists who use it, but, from my perspective, any white person using the n word is either using it as an insult (or worse) or is so stupid as not to understand the implications of what they are saying - either way, there can be no legitimate excuse I can think of for a white middle aged or old politician to use it in this day and age.

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...act=mrc&uact=8

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Originally Posted by TISS

where is Mrs R's 'you over there'...

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Originally Posted by TISS

I remember reading that Samuel L Jackson asked one of his co-stars to call him a n****r, so he could get into character. Not sure what film it was (maybe time to kill). I also saw the same actor in another film tell his high school basket ball players under no terms do they use the same word. It is a complex issue

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It's a very complex issue I agree. I just think it's not too complicated to see why in most situations white people should never say that word because it has negative connotations whilst there are situations for black people where saying it does not have the same negative connotations.

Also to reply to bob I can't think of one white rapper who uses the n word. You may get it said on an album by a white rapper but only in collaborations with a black rapper, the white rapper would never say it.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Don't agree with your first paragraph at all because when it comes to the colour of someone's skin, I cannot think of one descriptive or made up word off the top of my head that is definitely used in a complimentary way - it seems the best we can hope for is just to call them by that colour, so white, black and redskin are seen as fairly neutral terms (at least I think they are, but I may be wrong) and I suppose something like Caucasian falls into the same category.

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why can't we use terms that easily identify people, their doesn't always have to be a sinister undertone.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Many other words would be viewed as an insult though by the group the word described and it seems to me that the large majority are names given to dark skinned people by those with paler skins. The n word is unusual in that it is a word that some blacks have no problem with using in certain contexts, It's true that there are very many blacks who disagree with this, but, undoubtedly, we're talking about a word that involves nuances depending on the colour of the skin of the person using it - the reaction by the person the word is directed at can differ greatly depending on those nuances, so we are talking about a word that can be interpreted differently no matter what you claim.

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i'm not claiming anything other than as long as we treat different people differently for a given situation, we will always have racism. I have said elsewhere it is a complex issue. It would be nice if we could all use n****r and no one get offended, but given its historical connotations, it is going to take a long time (if ever) for its meaning to change sufficiently for its use to be deemed acceptable.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Apparently there are white rap artists who use it, but, from my perspective, any white person using the n word is either using it as an insult (or worse) or is so stupid as not to understand the implications of what they are saying - either way, there can be no legitimate excuse I can think of for a white middle aged or old politician to use it in this day and age.

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there was a basketball coach from Chicago (possibly Illinois) who asked his players if he could join in with them when they referred to each other in that way. They all agreed it was perfectly acceptable. They knew him, they knew he respected them and they respected him. In that context there was no racist connotations no matter what word was used.

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Originally Posted by Packerman

https://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgu...act=mrc&uact=8

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we have a new one

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

It's a very complex issue I agree. I just think it's not too complicated to see why in most situations white people should never say that word because it has negative connotations whilst there are situations for black people where saying it does not have the same negative connotations.

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as long as we have that differentiation we will have racism. to beat racism means its either offensive to all or offensive to none.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi

OK, once again, I do not require an explanation as to why the word is deemed offensive.

I know it is offensive, I know why.

Again, what I am asking, and this is as simple as I can word the question, How is it not racist for my specific race to have its vocabulary limited?

And no, this isn't about the time I used the word in my stand up set. Croesy Blue nailed it earlier in this thread when he said the offensiveness of the word depends on the context.

Here's a bit of wisdom for you, we should decide if the word ****** is offensive depending on the intent of the person using it.

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But nobody's asking your specific race to not use it. It is suggested that all non-black races refrain from using it.

Ok, I will concede that it's a little bit racist, but on the scale of racism you go past Australians calling us POMS and keep going to the end.

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Originally Posted by Colonel Cærdiffi

Croesy Blue nailed it earlier in this thread when he said the offensiveness of the word depends on the context.

Here's a bit of wisdom for you, we should decide if the word ****** is offensive depending on the intent of the person using it.

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I agree with that up to a point. The point is that it is often impossible to know the intent, and all we are left with is the words and how they are understood by people who hear them. When it comes to a black or gay person 'owning' an offensive word (******, queer etc) and subverting it, the context may be clear. But that usage is not accepted by many black or gay people. When it comes to white or straight people using those words or descriptions - even with the intent of stripping the historical meaning away - it is much harder to establish that different context.

The anguish 4 years ago when Reginald D Hunter did his set (with his usual use of '******' as a provocation and challenge to his audience) at the PFA awards ceremony still captures all the complexity and discomfort about the way language is used. In my opinion then (and still now) Reg uses the word in the right way, but was never going to be acceptable in that environment. The PFA and other football authorities are and were in a panic about how to deal effectively with racism and homophobia. They cannot cope with context or intent and have adopted a binary, rules based response. It gives me little confidence that those authorities understand the issues they are reacting to, but I do have confidence they know how to apply rules.

https://www.theguardian.com/football...r-race-remarks

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Do you care to explain why? The MP who used the word is bang out of order. It's a horrible word, and one that I've never used in my life, so why do black people find it acceptable in rapping lyrics. I don't buy into ToBW's explanation about the sheepshagging chants. As a Welshman, I don't get offended at all if someone calls me a sheepshagger. I see the humour in it.
There is no humour or justification in the modern world for anybody to be using the "N" word.

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So you think that back in the days before we started singing 1-0 to the sheepshaggers, those who chanted sheepshaggers at us were doing so because they thought we would find it funny? It was meant to insult and annoy us, whereas, for the last twenty years or so, we've been turning the insult on it's back and finding humour in it - the fact still remains though that it is a word which can be viewed differently depending on who is using it.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Also to reply to bob I can't think of one white rapper who uses the n word. You may get it said on an album by a white rapper but only in collaborations with a black rapper, the white rapper would never say it.

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http://www.thedailybeast.com/dear-wh...damn-privilege

There are a few of us on this thread doing a good impression of Feedback and Splott Dai. 😂. It's a good topic to discuss though and interesting to see the different opinions and takes on it.
If this had been posted on the politics forum I wouldn't have even seen it, as I don't go on there.
As long winded as it is, it's only one thread, and imo has every right to be on this front page along with anything City and football related. It's what made this board so interesting before.
Ps. Feedy and SD are probably contributing under different names. 😂

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Originally Posted by jon1959

I agree with that up to a point. The point is that it is often impossible to know the intent, and all we are left with is the words and how they are understood by people who hear them. When it comes to a black or gay person 'owning' an offensive word (******, queer etc) and subverting it, the context may be clear. But that usage is not accepted by many black or gay people. When it comes to white or straight people using those words or descriptions - even with the intent of stripping the historical meaning away - it is much harder to establish that different context.

The anguish 4 years ago when Reginald D Hunter did his set (with his usual use of '******' as a provocation and challenge to his audience) at the PFA awards ceremony still captures all the complexity and discomfort about the way language is used. In my opinion then (and still now) Reg uses the word in the right way, but was never going to be acceptable in that environment. The PFA and other football authorities are and were in a panic about how to deal effectively with racism and homophobia. They cannot cope with context or intent and have adopted a binary, rules based response. It gives me little confidence that those authorities understand the issues they are reacting to, but I do have confidence they know how to apply rules.

https://www.theguardian.com/football...r-race-remarks

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they'd be positively apoplectic if Chris Rock appeared.

Some people just cannot or will not understand context is everything and that it is the purpose of comedy to break down social taboos