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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
My religion is firmly behind drink
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
As someone who has known Christ since Jimmy Scholar was managing the City, I can tell you that organised religion is NOT the answer and forms the biggest barrier to individuals finding Almighty God at a personal level.
Religion = conflict, control, anger and confusion.
Christ provides true peace, true freedom, a real purpose in this life a real hope for the future.
Jesus declared - "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, nobody comes to the Father, except through me"
The retirement benefits aren't too shabby either :sherlock:
So in your opinion , it's just based on what you think........nobody goes to heaven unless they talk to or worship Jesus?
You see this is the problem for many of us non believers , you Christians base your lives on things that may or may not have been said 2000 plus years ago
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
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Originally Posted by
tforturton
Only 52%? If you'd said 82% I'd have probably agreed with you.
At least
It's dying out
When I was growing up I went to church but only because I had to
By the time I was 12 girls , fishing and football took over
In my groups of friends I don't know any people who go to church
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
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Originally Posted by
tforturton
Only 52%? If you'd said 82% I'd have probably agreed with you.
My mate who never goes to church and breaks half the sins in the bible put down “Christian” on the census based on the fact his parents are and would’ve kicked up a fuss had he not. I imagine 52% is much lower than people who are actually not religious based on people like the above.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
No one has ever come up with any demonstrable evidence for the existence of god. Millions of people worldwide regulate their lives by holy books of which none are sure of their authorship nor know the dates of their publications. We pay deference in millions to so called people of “faith” who deliberate upon ethics and morals and yet deride the witch doctors and shamen of older faiths whose tenets are no more fact based than Abrahamic religions. Remember that the Iliad and the Odyssey were written thousands of years before the Bible and the Koran and yet those books also have their Gods, now long forgotten.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
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Originally Posted by
pomeroy
No one has ever come up with any demonstrable evidence for the existence of god. Millions of people worldwide regulate their lives by holy books of which none are sure of their authorship nor know the dates of their publications. We pay deference in millions to so called people of “faith” who deliberate upon ethics and morals and yet deride the witch doctors and shamen of older faiths whose tenets are no more fact based than Abrahamic religions. Remember that the Iliad and the Odyssey were written thousands of years before the Bible and the Koran and yet those books also have their Gods, now long forgotten.
Aborigines , thousands and thousands of years worshipping the sun and the earth
American Natives , wise men hold meetings on important matters , respect is given to the land , to animals , to nature
Some bloke in pontypridd is a Christian but goes out every Saturday for a big mac and fries
It's all upside down
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
At least
It's dying out
When I was growing up I went to church but only because I had to
By the time I was 12 girls , fishing and football took over
In my groups of friends I don't know any people who go to church
Agreed. And the sooner boring religion is eliminated the better.
Christ was born a Jew and He was killed because of Jewish religious people; and still people think that following Christ is religion!
No Christ, no peace - KNOW Christ, KNOW Peace :thumbup:
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
Agreed. And the sooner boring religion is eliminated the better.
Christ was born a Jew and He was killed because of Jewish religious people; and still people think that following Christ is religion!
No Christ, no peace - KNOW Christ, KNOW Peace :thumbup:
It's baffling that you think what you do isn't religion. What's the problem? Plenty of people who are religious are nice enough.
Then you have a dogmatic belief in a figurehead and a specific text and narrative which you routinely share with others.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
You are quoting stuff from the bible that Jesus said ?
Given that a lot of the Bible was written after this person died how do you know he said it?
Not being a Christian has taken me to many places and has led me to meet many people
Some good , some bad
Why do you have to be a follower of Jesus to experience enlightenment ?
2000 years ago medicine was in its infancy
Today things are done very differently
But Christians still follow the teachings of Jesus and refer to the bible
If a medical student at university told everyone on his course that heart disease should be treated by physicians who wrote books 2000 years ago they would think he was a bit odd
It is generally accepted amongst scholars that the book of John was written between 90 and 100AD, so 60 – 70 years after the death of Jesus. Why would that make the contents unreliable? Compare this to say the recollections of surviving WW2 veterans, for example D-Day survivors who are still alive over 70 years after the event and who share their memories with us so they can be recorded for posterity – would you say their recollections are unreliable? I guess you could argue that the latter can be
corroborated by newsreel footage from the time but even that would not corroborate the recollections of individual soldiers unless in the highly unlikely event that a news cameraman was right alongside each one of them at the time and captured their every word/action on film. Unfortunately we do not have the benefit of newsreels from 33AD.
I suspect you would argue that in any case the events recorded in John are completely fictitious anyway so effectively ending any further discussion. My response to that would be what would be the motive for anyone to concoct such a narrative knowing that it was not true? It was hardly likely to become a best-selling kiss and tell story which might be the case in today's society nor was it likely to lead to the subjugation of the masses to church authority at that time which is another popular theory – that was already happily being undertaken by the Jewish authorities. (I do not deny that the Christian church became all powerful much later on but that was a perversion of the gospels and the reverse of everything that Jesus stood for). The reverse in fact – Christianity would have been seen as a potential threat to the stability of the ruling religious elite hence the mass persecution of the emerging church. It would have been a risky business to be a follower of Christ in those days, with many being put to death to try to eradicate the cause. Yet it flourished and grew!
Finally even if you are convinced that the whole thing is a complete cock and bull story, what is so wrong with the underlying sentiments of Jesus as recorded in the books of John and James, like love one another as I have loved you, love your neighbour as yourself, faith without works is dead etc? No-one can argue surely that these traits are desperately needed in the world today? I don't recall Jesus required his followers to put to death anyone who does not accept the faith for example.
You ask why it was necessary for me to become a Christian to meet people and go to places where I would never have gone. Obviously you don't know me as you didn't before I became a Christian so let me enlighten you. I grew up effectively as an only child (I have one sibling who she is almost 13 years younger than me) hence I was an essential selfish person, an attitude which persevered well into adulthood. I was never an evil person but looking after No.1 was my mantra. After becoming a Christian in my late 30's all that changed and most of my life since has been a compassionate concern for other people which is what Jesus would expect from each of us. Maybe for you that came naturally but not for me. I will not go into any more details here otherwise it could be interpreted as a “look at me aren't I a great person” narcissistic diatribe.
Look after yourself and try to keep an open mind. At the end of the day it isn't down to me to evangelise or judge you, it's your choice!
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AfricanBluebird
Super post Gofer Blue.. and Jon Candy.
Gofer Blue - Hope you are well.
I flip flop about 'church' all the time. I see the good, bad and the ugly.
Having seen, and continue to see, absolute nonsense and damage from the evangelical conservative church (all over the world) - I have long since rejected such institutions. They are ill informed, hateful, poisonous and Theologically wrong on every level. I think Conservative evangelical Christianity is one of the biggest threats to society and the church itself.
I can see the 'benefit' of more organised forms of Christianity where at least some of the leaders are trained and have a better understanding of the scriptures - CoE and Catholic church... but then again I contend with a Catholic Church who allowed Priests to abuse children.
I am friends with some Jesuit Priests, who I find inspirational. They do often the shitty work of the Catholic Church. I worked with them and they agreed that ANY abuse by Catholic leaders should be reported to the authorities - whereas the traditional Catholic way was to deal with it internally - which is illegal and a code for 'covering up'. So I do have a lot of respect for Jesuits... far more than these ill informed and theologically wrong 'born again' types.
Bottom line is I am equally as comfortable and uncomfortable in any church environment.
In terms of your point... IF indeed the country is becoming 'Anti-Christian' - I would propose that it is not actually Jesus that people have an issue with but the behaviour, attitude and grifting of the 'Church' and religious folk. I don't think many people particularly have a problem with the likes of you and I who would define ourselves as 'Christians'... most people wouldn't care if we believe that Darth Vader is Lord and Saviour.... but people do care that the church is hateful, spiteful, grifting and trying to control peoples own lives and decisions. Which I completely agree with them on.
As an aside I was at a quiz night in a team with 4 Jesuits Priests. Can you imagine we lost out by winning the quiz by one point - the Priests knew that the 2012 fourth studio album by Taylor Swift was called 'Red', and yet answered wrongly what the middle chapter of the Bible is (Psalm 117).
Hi African Bluebird - all ok here thanks. Are you still in Uganda these days? I haven't been back there for many years now (15 or so?) but still supporting those who are where I can. It is so sad that the actions of a few have tainted the reputation of the thousands of Catholic workers who are working at the "coal face" in some of the poorest places on the planet. I think have gone full circle where my faith is concerned. It really is quite straightforward and yet very easy to get bogged down with theological "stuff" hence am really enjoying being part of a house church rather than a "church" per se - back to the Acts of Apostles days almost! All the best - keep the faith!! :thumbup:
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
Agreed. And the sooner boring religion is eliminated the better.
Christ was born a Jew and He was killed because of Jewish religious people; and still people think that following Christ is religion!
No Christ, no peace - KNOW Christ, KNOW Peace :thumbup:
Here's something I've always wondered about the whole heaven/hell thing - say I'm a believer and I know Christ and live a perfect, devout life and get into heaven. But say my partner, who I love dearly, doesn't believe and doesn't get to go to heaven. Do I then live the rest of eternity in heaven, knowing that she's spending eternity in hell or purgatory? Because to be honest I'd find that quite upsetting and not very heavenly at all. How does that work?
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
Here's something I've always wondered about the whole heaven/hell thing - say I'm a believer and I know Christ and live a perfect, devout life and get into heaven. But say my partner, who I love dearly, doesn't believe and doesn't get to go to heaven. Do I then live the rest of eternity in heaven, knowing that she's spending eternity in hell or purgatory? Because to be honest I'd find that quite upsetting and not very heavenly at all. How does that work?
She had her chance Delmi, not your fault she preferred to stay in bed on a Sunday morning whilst you were cleansing your soul. You could always borrow a virgin off a suicide bomber.:hide:
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
Here's something I've always wondered about the whole heaven/hell thing - say I'm a believer and I know Christ and live a perfect, devout life and get into heaven. But say my partner, who I love dearly, doesn't believe and doesn't get to go to heaven. Do I then live the rest of eternity in heaven, knowing that she's spending eternity in hell or purgatory? Because to be honest I'd find that quite upsetting and not very heavenly at all. How does that work?
As a Christian I have wrestled with this thought myself. I can only conclude that heaven is nothing like anything we humans can conceive of i.e. will we have no memory of the time before we died and simply enjoy a peaceful, pain-free, war-free existence in some sort of spirit form? The Bible talks of a heavenly "body" and Jesus said there would be no marriages in heaven but there is some controversy over this: did he mean that people who get to heaven don't marry there or did he mean that people who were married in their earthly life don't stay married in heaven! It's one of those questions that can't be answered unfortunately. BTW I often wonder why non-believers get upset with notions of heaven and eternal life - surely it is irrelevant to them?
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
As a Christian I have wrestled with this thought myself. I can only conclude that heaven is nothing like anything we humans can conceive of i.e. will we have no memory of the time before we died and simply enjoy a peaceful, pain-free, war-free existence in some sort of spirit form? The Bible talks of a heavenly "body" and Jesus said there would be no marriages in heaven but there is some controversy over this: did he mean that people who get to heaven don't marry there or did he mean that people who were married in their earthly life don't stay married in heaven! It's one of those questions that can't be answered unfortunately. BTW I often wonder why non-believers get upset with notions of heaven and eternal life - surely it is irrelevant to them?
It's because the concept infantilizes the gullible.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
[/B]It's because the concept infantilizes the gullible.
Matt 18:3: And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children*, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
*Note: childlike not childish. Think on.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Aborigines , thousands and thousands of years worshipping the sun and the earth
American Natives , wise men hold meetings on important matters , respect is given to the land , to animals , to nature
Some bloke in pontypridd is a Christian but goes out every Saturday for a big mac and fries
It's all upside down
Describing American Natives as 'Wise Men' Such a cliche, Sludge. Must've been some dull ones as well.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
Here's something I've always wondered about the whole heaven/hell thing - say I'm a believer and I know Christ and live a perfect, devout life and get into heaven. But say my partner, who I love dearly, doesn't believe and doesn't get to go to heaven. Do I then live the rest of eternity in heaven, knowing that she's spending eternity in hell or purgatory? Because to be honest I'd find that quite upsetting and not very heavenly at all. How does that work?
There is no purgatory, the catholic church are starting to swerve that one. The ****ing hours i spent praying for people in the halfway house was such a massive waste.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Why are we so concerned what those who cannot think believe?
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
Matt 18:3: And he said: “I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children*, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
*Note: childlike not childish. Think on.
Just because people put loopholes in the Bible to emotionally blackmail people into staying in the religion, doesn't make it right. You may as well quote Star Wars scripts to me
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
As a Christian I have wrestled with this thought myself. I can only conclude that heaven is nothing like anything we humans can conceive of i.e. will we have no memory of the time before we died and simply enjoy a peaceful, pain-free, war-free existence in some sort of spirit form? The Bible talks of a heavenly "body" and Jesus said there would be no marriages in heaven but there is some controversy over this: did he mean that people who get to heaven don't marry there or did he mean that people who were married in their earthly life don't stay married in heaven! It's one of those questions that can't be answered unfortunately. BTW I often wonder why non-believers get upset with notions of heaven and eternal life - surely it is irrelevant to them?
I'm not sure if the last sentence is directed at me, it's just a big contradiction I've always wondered about, same as if only believers get into heaven it seems a bit unfair that say a non believer who's dedicated their lives to saving children ends up in the same place as the Yorkshire Ripper.
I've got no quarrel with you and your beliefs though, it's not for me but I think religion and faith can be a good thing in that it gives people strength in testing times and in its best form leads people to do good, it's just the violent fanatics and those that abuse and misinterpret the core messages that make it the cause of so many problems, and unfortunately historically and currently there's a lot of them
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Why are we so concerned what those who cannot think believe?
There's often an egomaniacal assurance and a supposed path to an absolute "truth" that has led us down some foolish and dangerous socio-political paths.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
I'm not sure if the last sentence is directed at me, it's just a big contradiction I've always wondered about, same as if only believers get into heaven it seems a bit unfair that say a non believer who's dedicated their lives to saving children ends up in the same place as the Yorkshire Ripper.
I've got no quarrel with you and your beliefs though, it's not for me but I think religion and faith can be a good thing in that it gives people strength in testing times and in its best form leads people to do good, it's just the violent fanatics and those that abuse and misinterpret the core messages that make it the cause of so many problems, and unfortunately historically and currently there's a lot of them
I haven't come across many violent fanatical Christians recently and if I did, then by default they would be Christians in name only!
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Why are we so concerned what those who cannot think believe?
Wow.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
I haven't come across many violent fanatical Christians recently and if I did, then by default they would be Christians in name only!
How many violent fanatics of other religions have you come across?
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
How many violent fanatics of other religions have you come across?
In over 5 decades of having an interest in matters of fauth, I can only recall members of one group taking such violent and deadly actions. Unfortunately their understanding of their own prophecies means that many of them believe that they can personally accelerate the end-time events by bringing about such world instability.
In contrast those who read and understand Biblical Prophecy know that God is alone in control of all such future events and their timing on the world stage.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
In over 5 decades of having an interest in matters of fauth, I can only recall members of one group taking such violent and deadly actions. Unfortunately their understanding of their own prophecies means that many of them believe that they can personally accelerate the end-time events by bringing about such world instability.
In contrast those who read and understand Biblical Prophecy know that God is alone in control of all such future events and their timing on the world stage.
Attachment 4615
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
In over 5 decades of having an interest in matters of fauth, I can only recall members of one group taking such violent and deadly actions. Unfortunately their understanding of their own prophecies means that many of them believe that they can personally accelerate the end-time events by bringing about such world instability.
In contrast those who read and understand Biblical Prophecy know that God is alone in control of all such future events and their timing on the world stage.
ohhh you mean the catholics...oh sorry the jews...opps the protastants..errr? muslims....sunni or shia? i could go on forever
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
How many violent fanatics of other religions have you come across?
Truthpaste has beaten me to it. I suspect you know very well which religion is the elephant in the room here! Look no further than Afghanistan or even Pakistan where Christians are regularly murdered (some burned alive), churches and whole villages burned because someone "blasphemed". Because these events don't take place in the west they rarely make the news.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
Truthpaste has beaten me to it. I suspect you know very well which religion is the elephant in the room here! Look no further than Afghanistan or even Pakistan where Christians are regularly murdered (some burned alive), churches and whole villages burned because someone "blasphemed". Because these events don't take place in the west they rarely make the news.
It's getting to be a bit of a squeeze in this room with that elephant and the Catholic priest/child abuse on a massive scale shaped one next to it
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
It is generally accepted amongst scholars that the book of John was written between 90 and 100AD, so 60 – 70 years after the death of Jesus. Why would that make the contents unreliable? Compare this to say the recollections of surviving WW2 veterans, for example D-Day survivors who are still alive over 70 years after the event and who share their memories with us so they can be recorded for posterity – would you say their recollections are unreliable? I guess you could argue that the latter can be
corroborated by newsreel footage from the time but even that would not corroborate the recollections of individual soldiers unless in the highly unlikely event that a news cameraman was right alongside each one of them at the time and captured their every word/action on film. Unfortunately we do not have the benefit of newsreels from 33AD.
I suspect you would argue that in any case the events recorded in John are completely fictitious anyway so effectively ending any further discussion. My response to that would be what would be the motive for anyone to concoct such a narrative knowing that it was not true? It was hardly likely to become a best-selling kiss and tell story which might be the case in today's society nor was it likely to lead to the subjugation of the masses to church authority at that time which is another popular theory – that was already happily being undertaken by the Jewish authorities. (I do not deny that the Christian church became all powerful much later on but that was a perversion of the gospels and the reverse of everything that Jesus stood for). The reverse in fact – Christianity would have been seen as a potential threat to the stability of the ruling religious elite hence the mass persecution of the emerging church. It would have been a risky business to be a follower of Christ in those days, with many being put to death to try to eradicate the cause. Yet it flourished and grew!
Finally even if you are convinced that the whole thing is a complete cock and bull story, what is so wrong with the underlying sentiments of Jesus as recorded in the books of John and James, like love one another as I have loved you, love your neighbour as yourself, faith without works is dead etc? No-one can argue surely that these traits are desperately needed in the world today? I don't recall Jesus required his followers to put to death anyone who does not accept the faith for example.
You ask why it was necessary for me to become a Christian to meet people and go to places where I would never have gone. Obviously you don't know me as you didn't before I became a Christian so let me enlighten you. I grew up effectively as an only child (I have one sibling who she is almost 13 years younger than me) hence I was an essential selfish person, an attitude which persevered well into adulthood. I was never an evil person but looking after No.1 was my mantra. After becoming a Christian in my late 30's all that changed and most of my life since has been a compassionate concern for other people which is what Jesus would expect from each of us. Maybe for you that came naturally but not for me. I will not go into any more details here otherwise it could be interpreted as a “look at me aren't I a great person” narcissistic diatribe.
Look after yourself and try to keep an open mind. At the end of the day it isn't down to me to evangelise or judge you, it's your choice!
The facts are that:
1. The first five books of the Bible and which represent the Torah were supposedly written by Moses.
2. There is no evidence that Moses existed
3. There is no evidence that if he existed that he spoke to 'God'
4. There is no evidence of such dialogue being recorded.
The whole concept of Abrahamist religions are based on the supposed works of one mythical person and there is nothing resembling an audit trail of any description. However, catch people when they are young, indoctrinate them and they swallow it whole. And most believers have little idea how so-called Holy Books have been compiled, sifted, edited and changed through the centuries. And that's precisely why religions are subject to endless and deep schisms even under the Abrahamist umbrella.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
The facts are that:
1. The first five books of the Bible and which represent the Torah were supposedly written by Moses.
2. There is no evidence that Moses existed
3. There is no evidence that if he existed that he spoke to 'God'
4. There is no evidence of such dialogue being recorded.
The whole concept of Abrahamist religions are based on the supposed works of one mythical person and there is nothing resembling an audit trail of any description. However, catch people when they are young, indoctrinate them and they swallow it whole. And most believers have little idea how so-called Holy Books have been compiled, sifted, edited and changed through the centuries. And that's precisely why religions are subject to endless and deep schisms even under the Abrahamist umbrella.
Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.
Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lisvaneblue
Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.
Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.
I had asked a question about Moses several times in this thread and it went unanswered. As Moses is one of the most important pillars of the story in Abrahamist religions it is perfectly logical to seriously analyse things assigned to him and which adherents believe in. It seems to be the case of a possibly mythical person supposedly carrying God's word to the masses so I think the subject deserves more respect than referring to another possibly mythical person mentioned in the same tome.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lisvaneblue
Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.
Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.
There is no point in any further discussion with those who believe (note: I use the word believe with a touch of irony here) that the Bible is a complete book of fiction because they cannot/will not accept it as a reference source. My faith is based on Jesus not on Moses and there is evidence other than that in the Bible that he existed. The standard response to that is ok, there may have been an historical Jesus but he was just a bloke, he didn't say most, if not all, the things he is supposed to have said, did not perform any miracles and certainly did not rise from the dead. Oh, and that I must have been brain washed as a child.
In reality by my late teens I had rejected Christianity because I believed science had all the answers (I studied the three sciences at A level and then a science degree). I became a Christian about 20 years later when I guess I finally realised that science does not have all the answers after all!
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
There is no point in any further discussion with those who believe (note: I use the word believe with a touch of irony here) that the Bible is a complete book of fiction because they cannot/will not accept it as a reference source. My faith is based on Jesus not on Moses and there is evidence other than that in the Bible that he existed. The standard response to that is ok, there may have been an historical Jesus but he was just a bloke, he didn't say most, if not all, the things he is supposed to have said, did not perform any miracles and certainly did not rise from the dead. Oh, and that I must have been brain washed as a child.
In reality by my late teens I had rejected Christianity because I believed science had all the answers (I studied the three sciences at A level and then a science degree). I became a Christian about 20 years later when I guess I finally realised that science does not have all the answers after all!
Perhaps science doesn't have all the answers but it might, given time, and if it doesn't find them that might be down to our limitations as a species.
Do you think Jesus rose from the dead? Do you believe the miracles are true? To be honest, this is the stuff that confounds me. I can understand the notion of God because it's an answer to the big questions but the Jesus story seems (to me) to be marketing for said notion.
In an earlier post you asked why would John (of gospel fame) fictionalise anything - people like fiction and fancy narratives, don't they? Put a bit of water walking and defeating death in and you've got yourself a best seller.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
Finally even if you are convinced that the whole thing is a complete cock and bull story, what is so wrong with the underlying sentiments of Jesus as recorded in the books of John and James, like love one another as I have loved you, love your neighbour as yourself, faith without works is dead etc? No-one can argue surely that these traits are desperately needed in the world today?
Yes, but many of these ideas were imported from the classical ethical tradition preceding Christianity. So it’s possible to try and live a good life following them without any real need to also include the supernatural.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Religion summed up for me.... Tyson Fury, God will give me the victory, Deontay Wilder, God will give me the victory......... Fury wins, God gave me the victory, Wilder loses, God was teaching me a lesson....... God loves boxing, doesn't seem to care for children with cancer.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
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Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
There is no point in any further discussion with those who believe (note: I use the word believe with a touch of irony here) that the Bible is a complete book of fiction because they cannot/will not accept it as a reference source. My faith is based on Jesus not on Moses and there is evidence other than that in the Bible that he existed. The standard response to that is ok, there may have been an historical Jesus but he was just a bloke, he didn't say most, if not all, the things he is supposed to have said, did not perform any miracles and certainly did not rise from the dead. Oh, and that I must have been brain washed as a child.
In reality by my late teens I had rejected Christianity because I believed science had all the answers (I studied the three sciences at A level and then a science degree). I became a Christian about 20 years later when I guess I finally after all!
Regarding your last sentence: science means knowledge. No-one in their right mind thinks that we yet have perfect knowledge of all things. Our knowledge is built on trial and error along with evidence. On the other hand, ancient religions that have little or no evidence may explain the creation of the universe whereas people at the time didn't understand electricity, microbes or a million other things that we have subsequently learned about.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
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Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I had asked a question about Moses several times in this thread and it went unanswered. As Moses is one of the most important pillars of the story in Abrahamist religions it is perfectly logical to seriously analyse things assigned to him and which adherents believe in. It seems to be the case of a possibly mythical person supposedly carrying God's word to the masses so I think the subject deserves more respect than referring to another possibly mythical person mentioned in the same tome.
Looks like no-one is going to provide any evidence of God's words passed onto Moses, including the book of Genesis and the talking snake.
Surely, the veracity of what are meant to be God's words represents the basis of all that followed in various Abrahamist holy books.
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
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Originally Posted by
Bluebirdman Of Alcathays
Perhaps science doesn't have all the answers but it might, given time, and if it doesn't find them that might be down to our limitations as a species.
Do you think Jesus rose from the dead? Do you believe the miracles are true? To be honest, this is the stuff that confounds me. I can understand the notion of God because it's an answer to the big questions but the Jesus story seems (to me) to be marketing for said notion.
In an earlier post you asked why would John (of gospel fame) fictionalise anything - people like fiction and fancy narratives, don't they? Put a bit of water walking and defeating death in and you've got yourself a best seller.
Have you seriously looked into the evidence OUTSIDE the Bible re the bodily Resurrection of Christ?
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Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
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Originally Posted by
truthpaste
Have you seriously looked into the evidence OUTSIDE the Bible re the bodily Resurrection of Christ?
Only my (admittedly layman's) understanding of biology. Perhaps he was unconscious/presumed dead after his crucifixion, and spluttered into life a couple of days later before succumbing to his injuries/ascending to heaven, but then he wouldn't be dead and therefore not rising from the dead, and that's not as enticing a tale.
I had a google though and have bookmarked a couple of articles to look at later but even in a cursory search one sees there are a number of theories and doubts about the resurrection story alone. I suspect it would just come down to wanting to believe, wanting a faith, and that's fine if that's what people are looking for for themselves, but all that does is return to my question of why seek a faith in the first place.
