No U turn on essential goods ban

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

False anecdotes... I can think of two recent ones off the top of my head:

The people "high up" who wanted the pubs to stay closed and the numerous bull you've spouted about Castle Street involving conversations you've had with vendors etc.

Going to watch a film now. Speak to you tomorrow.

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The people 'in positions of influence' is something I honestly believe to be true. The vendors I have and do speak to. If you doubt what they think go and ask them yourself. if you're going to call me a liar prove me wrong!

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

The people 'in positions of influence' is something I honestly believe to be true. The vendors I have and do speak to. If you doubt what they think go and ask them yourself. if you're going to call me a liar prove me wrong!

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Sure... no problem. Which shops shall I go into once they've reopened and ask for their thoughts on Castle Street closures?

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

Y



The old nightingale hospital doesn't have any current patients as far as I'm aware and the new one is due to be completed before the expected spike in winter. That sounds like reasonable planning to me... building something to be ready for when it may be required.

Why don't you just hold on to your prejudices against Labour on this issue until it's actually warranted? If the new hospital isn't completed and there aren't enough beds for Covid patients, then you'll be able to gloat until your heart's content and... Until then, why not see how it pans out, eh?

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It's a heck of a risky strategy closing down one facility before a replacement is built. There is at least a six week gap between one hospital closing and the new one opening. That's certainly not sensible planning. Had the virus taken off differently, as it could have and has elsewhere, there would be no excess capacity in SE Wales. Indeed bed capacity for COVID patients is already under pressure according to Vaughan Gethin at today's press conference.

As it happens it looks as though things will work out but by luck rather than judgement. Those in power must have been praying that infection rates in Wales did not escalate at or above the level they have in the North of England. In the circumstances it is understandable why the Welsh government introduced the firebreak.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Obviously mixing up the Senedd, a Competent authority with a commercial undertaking that could have dominant influence on a market seems reasonably plain to most folks, just not to the Commercial expert that has spent most of his life apparently understanding the different public/private responsibilities.

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Yes I know what the Senedd is thank you and I explained that it recently acted unlawfully by taking a position outside of it's areas of responsibility. When it comes to the EU / UK Laws on Competition I do know the rules quite well and not just from a google search. As a Competent authority it is not above the law, and competition law covers any entity that has economic activity.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

It's a heck of a risky strategy closing down one facility before a replacement is built. There is at least a six week gap between one hospital closing and the new one opening. That's certainly not sensible planning. Had the virus taken off differently, as it could have and has elsewhere, there would be no excess capacity in SE Wales. Indeed bed capacity for COVID patients is already under pressure according to Vaughan Gethin at today's press conference.

As it happens it looks as though things will work out but by luck rather than judgement. Those in power must have been praying that infection rates in Wales did not escalate at or above the level they have in the North of England. In the circumstances it is understandable why the Welsh government introduced the firebreak.

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That is the only simple point I was trying to make, but people jump on it as an attack against welsh labour and do everything except answer the question. The question would be the samecwhoever was in government.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Yes I know what the Senedd is thank you and I explained that it recently acted unlawfully by taking a position outside of it's areas of responsibility. When it comes to the EU / UK Laws on Competition I do know the rules quite well and not just from a google search. As a Competent authority it is not above the law, and competition law covers any entity that has economic activity.

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Looks like we need to do this in baby steps.

The Senedd legislated for these restrictions and they are primary law in Wales. The relevant law is here.

https://gov.wales/sites/default/file...tions-2020.pdf

Individuals, organisations and commercial undertakings have the right to challenge that law via Judicial Review. In doing so they will seek to prove that the measures are legally defective and disproportionate. They are challenging the law made by the competent authority which as I say again is involved in zero activity in the market sectors in question that would make it a dominant entity in that sector.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

It's a heck of a risky strategy closing down one facility before a replacement is built. There is at least a six week gap between one hospital closing and the new one opening. That's certainly not sensible planning. Had the virus taken off differently, as it could have and has elsewhere, there would be no excess capacity in SE Wales. Indeed bed capacity for COVID patients is already under pressure according to Vaughan Gethin at today's press conference.

As it happens it looks as though things will work out but by luck rather than judgement. Those in power must have been praying that infection rates in Wales did not escalate at or above the level they have in the North of England. In the circumstances it is understandable why the Welsh government introduced the firebreak.

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Risky strategy? More like incompetence

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Originally Posted by Vindec

It's a heck of a risky strategy closing down one facility before a replacement is built. There is at least a six week gap between one hospital closing and the new one opening. That's certainly not sensible planning. Had the virus taken off differently, as it could have and has elsewhere, there would be no excess capacity in SE Wales. Indeed bed capacity for COVID patients is already under pressure according to Vaughan Gethin at today's press conference.

As it happens it looks as though things will work out but by luck rather than judgement. Those in power must have been praying that infection rates in Wales did not escalate at or above the level they have in the North of England. In the circumstances it is understandable why the Welsh government introduced the firebreak.

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How do you know there is at least a six week gap? I haven;t seen any exact dates for the first hospital closing, or the second one opening, just a lot of guess work.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

How do you know there is at least a six week gap? I haven;t seen any exact dates for the first hospital closing, or the second one opening, just a lot of guess work.

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I agree there are no exact dates. However, as Wales are playing Scotland on Saturday it is not unreasonable to conclude the Nightingale hospital built on the Principality Stadium's pitch is no more. Furthermore there is a guy on here who is working on the replacement hospital who has indicated that it should be ready in early December. In the circumstances I don't think my guesswork is unreasonable do you?

I don't live in the area so you might have better information.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I agree there are no exact dates. However, as there is a match at the Principality Stadium on Saturday it is not unreasonable to conclude the Nightingale hospital built on the Stadium's pitch is no more. Furthermore there is a guy on here who is working on the replacement hospital who has indicated that it should be ready in early December. In the circumstances I don't think my guesswork is unreasonable do you?

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Youd be very wrong. The game is in Llanelli.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I agree there are no exact dates. However, as Wales are playing Scotland on Saturday it is not unreasonable to conclude the Nightingale hospital built on the Principality Stadium's pitch is no more. Furthermore there is a guy on here who is working on the replacement hospital who has indicated that it should be ready in early December. In the circumstances I don't think my guesswork is unreasonable do you?

I don't live in the area so you might have better information.

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Which match is at the principality on Saturday?

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

Looks like we need to do this in baby steps.

The Senedd legislated for these restrictions and they are primary law in Wales. The relevant law is here.

https://gov.wales/sites/default/file...tions-2020.pdf

Individuals, organisations and commercial undertakings have the right to challenge that law via Judicial Review. In doing so they will seek to prove that the measures are legally defective and disproportionate. They are challenging the law made by the competent authority which as I say again is involved in zero activity in the market sectors in question that would make it a dominant entity in that sector.

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you are way off target. The Senedd position and public health law fine, essential and non essential lists for public health reasons fine. But then it jumps big time into the Commercial area by extending its non essential list ( being kind because no list exists) to essential shops taking choice away from the public...why? To defend the commercial interests of those private businesses which they instructed to close, despite the fact that there are other financial compensation schemes in place.
They have already admitted that they were wrong and acted outside of the legislation ( which kindly highlighted above)
There is no doubt at all that they have acted in an anti- competitive way and are now busy correcting things by legislating the non essential list in essential shops for public health reasons, which they should have done in the first place.
The meeting with the retail sector yesterday would have irritated a few sores and I predict there will be announcement later today softening the current stance.
Finally, just so you too are able to learn to take first steps in the area, the Senedd has legitimate powers and in this specific case we are talking public health, so powerful that it could if it wanted close all retail establishments for public health reasons. It’s in a legitimate dominant position. When it starts interfering within the commercial area unlawfully it’s abusing thar dominant position in a market place. As said previously this could impact on 5% of Uk supermarkets, or in a more specific market it impacted on 100% of supermarkets in Wales. It is a complex area so I appreciate the fact that you are finding it difficult to understand

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Which match is at the principality on Saturday?

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As I indicated Wales are playing Scotland at home. I presume it is at the Principality Stadium but, as I said, you might have better information.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

As I indicated Wales are playing Scotland at home. I presume it is at the Principality Stadium but, as I said, you might have better information.

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All the matches up until the end of the year have been moved to Parc Y Scarlets

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Originally Posted by Rjk

All the matches up until the end of the year have been moved to Parc Y Scarlets

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Thanks. It's difficult to establish whether there is anything of the Nightingale Hospital left. Some information is here but it's a month out of date:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/...field-18875254

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

you are way off target. The Senedd position and public health law fine, essential and non essential lists for public health reasons fine. But then it jumps big time into the Commercial area by extending its non essential list ( being kind because no list exists) to essential shops taking choice away from the public...why? To defend the commercial interests of those private businesses which they instructed to close, despite the fact that there are other financial compensation schemes in place.
They have already admitted that they were wrong and acted outside of the legislation ( which kindly highlighted above)
There is no doubt at all that they have acted in an anti- competitive way and are now busy correcting things by legislating the non essential list in essential shops for public health reasons, which they should have done in the first place.
The meeting with the retail sector yesterday would have irritated a few sores and I predict there will be announcement later today softening the current stance.
Finally, just so you too are able to learn to take first steps in the area, the Senedd has legitimate powers and in this specific case we are talking public health, so powerful that it could if it wanted close all retail establishments for public health reasons. It’s in a legitimate dominant position. When it starts interfering within the commercial area unlawfully it’s abusing thar dominant position in a market place. As said previously this could impact on 5% of Uk supermarkets, or in a more specific market it impacted on 100% of supermarkets in Wales. It is a complex area so I appreciate the fact that you are finding it difficult to understand

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You seem to have an almost evangelical zeal to demonstrate your conflation of two elements of law to draw erroneous conclusions. If the law set out above has been interpreted incorrectly it is that law which would be subject to legal challenge. If you want to be right in your own head despite these simple facts I can't stop you.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

The people 'in positions of influence' is something I honestly believe to be true. The vendors I have and do speak to. If you doubt what they think go and ask them yourself. if you're going to call me a liar prove me wrong!

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In case you missed it, I responded to this post and am willing to take you up on your offer. I'll be in town anyway at some point in the near future so it's no skin off my nose.

Which vendors do I need to speak to? The burden of proof is on you now, xsnaggle, as I'm calling your bluff.

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

You seem to have an almost evangelical zeal to demonstrate your conflation of two elements of law to draw erroneous conclusions. If the law set out above has been interpreted incorrectly it is that law which would be subject to legal challenge. If you want to be right in your own head despite these simple facts I can't stop you.

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It wasn't just me then. Although, I have to admit, I have no background in law whatsoever, so it's only my ability to read, retain and process basic information that has drawn me to my conclusion.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

I think Drakeford should give his citizens some credit for intelligence as I’m sure most will do non essential shopping at the same time that they do their essential shopping

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Is that in the same way as most people would get meat at the same time they're in the same supermarket in the same local authority to avoid making another journey?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Is that in the same way as most people would get meat at the same time they're in the same supermarket in the same local authority to avoid making another journey?

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I don't think he did it in the end, although LB asking the question at the time tells you all you need to know really.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Is that in the same way as most people would get meat at the same time they're in the same supermarket in the same local authority to avoid making another journey?

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TBF most supermarket meat is pretty poor quality

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Originally Posted by Hilts

Youd be very wrong. The game is in Llanelli.

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Who cares?

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Originally Posted by goats

Who cares?

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Fair point.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

I don't think he did it in the end, although LB asking the question at the time tells you all you need to know really.

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No I didn't go to Brecon in the first lockdown but have been since. At the time I was testing the water. No way could I catch or spread Covid in a car travelling from Cardiff to Brecon I said, but the WAG message was that I was at risk of carrying the virus from a high incidence area in Cardiff to a low incidence area in Powys.
Current lockdown I can't travel to Brecon although I live in Lisvane where the incidence is lowish, but I can pop down the road to Cathays where the incidence is 20 times higher. Strange times.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

No I didn't go to Brecon in the first lockdown but have been since. At the time I was testing the water. No way could I catch or spread Covid in a car travelling from Cardiff to Brecon I said, but the WAG message was that I was at risk of carrying the virus from a high incidence area in Cardiff to a low incidence area in Powys.
Current lockdown I can't travel to Brecon although I live in Lisvane where the incidence is lowish, but I can pop down the road to Cathays where the incidence is 20 times higher. Strange times.

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Fair play, you're looking at every single angle in order to bash this government. I hate the Tories, but i wouldn't go as far as to say that they could've got everything right during this Pandemic and criticised them at every given opportunity. A little balance goes a long way, try and get some.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

No way could I catch or spread Covid in a car travelling from Cardiff to Brecon I said

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What about when you got out of your car and met other people, like the butcher?

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

No I didn't go to Brecon in the first lockdown but have been since. At the time I was testing the water. No way could I catch or spread Covid in a car travelling from Cardiff to Brecon I said, but the WAG message was that I was at risk of carrying the virus from a high incidence area in Cardiff to a low incidence area in Powys.
Current lockdown I can't travel to Brecon although I live in Lisvane where the incidence is lowish, but I can pop down the road to Cathays where the incidence is 20 times higher. Strange times.

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Imagine your posts had Corbyn won the last General Election, Jeez, you’d be in your element, an assembly and a government to decry:hehe:

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

What about when you got out of your car and met other people, like the butcher?

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Oh I forgot that. In Cardiff I never get out of my car and talk to anybody.

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Originally Posted by Heisenberg

In case you missed it, I responded to this post and am willing to take you up on your offer. I'll be in town anyway at some point in the near future so it's no skin off my nose.

Which vendors do I need to speak to? The burden of proof is on you now, xsnaggle, as I'm calling your bluff.

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Speak to any of them not just in Castle street. The Reaction to the council by the castle st traders was widely reported at the time.
speak to the butcher in the market, alan Griffiths or to the guy who keeps the veg stall oppostie the fish monger.
ask alan about how they said the wouldn't have to pay rent/rates because the council closed their premises then changed their minds and told them they would put it in the accounts as arrears.
Ask them about footfall since the last lockdown and why they think its changed. But speak to any trader, you'll get the gist of it.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Fair play, you're looking at every single angle in order to bash this government. I hate the Tories, but i wouldn't go as far as to say that they could've got everything right during this Pandemic and criticised them at every given opportunity. A little balance goes a long way, try and get some.

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What is factually wrong with what I said in my post.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Oh I forgot that. In Cardiff I never get out of my car and talk to anybody.

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**** me, you live in Cardiff! Do you understand the concept of isolation?

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

What is factually wrong with what I said in my post.

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Your facts are filled with deception. I'm out :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Your facts are filled with deception. I'm out :thumbup:

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Wake up and smell the coffee. We have a government currently treating us all like idiots. They instil fear everyday with talk of death rates and saving lives, yet the facts say that since mid year the overall death rates are no different this year to last and that includes Covid.
In March they prohibited travel over 5 miles with no evidence to back up the decision. Recently that prohibited travel outside authority boundaries, no evidence to back up the decision. These travel bans affected millions.
They have introduced the latest lockdown with frightening speed and no consultation. They said it would last two weeks, but not so sure now. They haven't told us what's to happen on 9 Nov, not me not you not any business in Wales knows. I wonder iff the Government knows?
They are taking away our freedom and liberties at a stroke and in my 75 years in this world I have never seen the public in Wales treated with so little respect by our leaders. They tell us that intensive care beds are full, not true. They say pubs and restaurants are safe and close them all. They tell us what we can and cannot buy as if we are infants, yet people have been frightened into submission and accept it. Doctors seem to have learned a lot about how to handle this virus our leaders very little. No doubt we will have another arbitrary lockdown in a month or two.
I like most obey the rules, and all the basics like distancing , hygiene etc, but Im against blindly accepting rules and regulations on a whim unless there is evidence to back them up.
70,000 people have signed the petition regarding non essential goods. At last some response from the public, but sadly little response from the Government. They obviously know best, as usual.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

**** me, you live in Cardiff! Do you understand the concept of isolation?

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Yep...bloody isolated now in my home because of the latest lockdown

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Wake up and smell the coffee. We have a government currently treating us all like idiots. They instil fear everyday with talk of death rates and saving lives, yet the facts say that since mid year the overall death rates are no different this year to last and that includes Covid.
In March they prohibited travel over 5 miles with no evidence to back up the decision. Recently that prohibited travel outside authority boundaries, no evidence to back up the decision. These travel bans affected millions.
They have introduced the latest lockdown with frightening speed and no consultation. They said it would last two weeks, but not so sure now. They haven't told us what's to happen on 9 Nov, not me not you not any business in Wales knows. I wonder iff the Government knows?
They are taking away our freedom and liberties at a stroke and in my 75 years in this world I have never seen the public in Wales treated with so little respect by our leaders. They tell us that intensive care beds are full, not true. They say pubs and restaurants are safe and close them all. They tell us what we can and cannot buy as if we are infants, yet people have been frightened into submission and accept it. Doctors seem to have learned a lot about how to handle this virus our leaders very little. No doubt we will have another arbitrary lockdown in a month or two.
I like most obey the rules, and all the basics like distancing , hygiene etc, but Im against blindly accepting rules and regulations on a whim unless there is evidence to back them up.
70,000 people have signed the petition regarding non essential goods. At last some response from the public, but sadly little response from the Government. They obviously know best, as usual.

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The worm is beginning to turn with the WAG.....Westminster too. A very dangerous game is being played out, fear, lies, mis information, almost dictatorship.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Speak to any of them not just in Castle street. The Reaction to the council by the castle st traders was widely reported at the time.
speak to the butcher in the market, alan Griffiths or to the guy who keeps the veg stall oppostie the fish monger.
ask alan about how they said the wouldn't have to pay rent/rates because the council closed their premises then changed their minds and told them they would put it in the accounts as arrears.
Ask them about footfall since the last lockdown and why they think its changed. But speak to any trader, you'll get the gist of it.

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Shall I speak to Alan when I see him and mention you personally about your conversations with him, Sean?

Because that's what we're debating - whether you've had any of these conversations with vendors yourself, not whether there have been reports on WalesOnline about Alan Griffiths, (the Chairman of the Cardiff Market Traders association) being unhappy.

Which, it just so happens is exactly where you've got your information from, you liar :hehe:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/whats-...s-18522610.amp

Another fake anecdote for xsnaggle.

:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by goats

The worm is beginning to turn with the WAG.....Westminster too. A very dangerous game is being played out, fear, lies, mis information, almost dictatorship.

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Dictatorship


Not being able to buy some cheaply made clothing for the next 12 days


Almost identical really.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Not being able to buy some cheaply made clothing for the next 12 days.

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Or go out for a drink. Or a meal. Or go to the cinema. Or meet up with a friend. Or a member of your family.

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Originally Posted by lisvaneblue

Yep...bloody isolated now in my home because of the latest lockdown

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Yes but look on the bright side, you're fortunate to live in leafy Lisvane, other poor people are isolated in absolute shit tips (and many don't complain).

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Yes but look on the bright side, you're fortunate to live in leafy Lisvane, other poor people are isolated in absolute shit tips (and many don't complain).

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Yes I am fortunate, and don't think I don't realise that.