Reading some of the posts on this thread typify why the working class have deserted Labour in droves.
Not only has it taken them for granted, many of its most vociferous followers openly castigate them.
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Reading some of the posts on this thread typify why the working class have deserted Labour in droves.
Not only has it taken them for granted, many of its most vociferous followers openly castigate them.
For different reasons, some want a real Left Wing Party, others want it Tory Lite :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue
Yes, it seems one party gets forgiven everything and another one forgiven nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninian opinian
i) Clever use of most there. Not most of it's followers but most vociferous followers and still not sure that is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue
ii) The working class has clearly changed within the last 20 years. Hartlepool may be traditionally working class but they've aged now so many of Boris' new voters are no longer working/working full time and have more capital (home ownership) than the new working class. The new working class work in unstable jobs and live in rented accommodation for most of their twenties and still generally vote centre-left/left parties.
iii)I think Hungary is an example of an EU nation who has followed own vaccine strategy; freeports were always allowed within the EU (there is some contention whether Boris and EU are describing a different system under the same name); and Tories did nothing to fight off the super-league as it was threat of sponsors and outrage of fans. Fan ownership fought off the super league in Germany.Quote:
Speaking in Hartlepool, Boris Johnson has said it was "thanks to Brexit" that the government was able to pursue freeports, its own vaccine policy, and to fight off the European Super League. As far as I know, none of those are true.
https://twitter.com/peterwalker99/st...66920697925634
Your attitude and opinions are a golden example of why Labour is doing so badly and the left wing is basically unelectable. According to you, anybody who dared vote Conservative is stark staring bonkers. Well, thats over 14 million people at the last election. You need to look a bit closer to home if you want to understand why people vote Conservative - its because the alternative is even more horrific to many people.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninian opinian
If we focus on the specific thing said about Tory voters instead of the Tory party we're left with:Quote:
Originally Posted by dml1954
Is your message fair or are you pushing a narrative?Quote:
I’ve tried to get my head around why anyone would still vote for them, I really have I just don’t get it.
Seriously, it's because Boris is a 'Character' in some cases, a bit of a boy, almost an idiot. And i think that he plays up to it, it's his default position, and plenty of plebs find it funny and almost endearing that he acts like a bumbling shop owner. There are plenty of reasons why he is popular, especially with those who he will damage the most, it's almost a protest for some, a mini Trump to a certain degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
When poor areas are neglected, their culture attacked, their means of a living stripped away, then people like Boris thrive. He can get away with most things, because in a kind of perverse way, he's sticking his fingers up to politics by acting in the way that he does. It shows how bad things have got when an idiot like Boris is deemed some kind of cult figure for the disengaged.
Just my opinion, but I think this article describes the modern day Labour Party pretty well - Starmer’s PPS should have been sacked on the spot for that remark as it perfectly captures how out of touch so many of them are.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...s-keir-starmer
That does appear to be happening. But clearly working class people are bonkers to vote Tory. I am old enough to remember Thatcher trying to convince working class people they were 'middle' class, a strategy that has worked. Back then there was manufacturing, a coal industry, a steel industry etc but the world has changed. Most people now work in office based jobs, as the 'blue collar' jobs have gone. Getting people to consider themselves shareholders and home owners converted a lot of people over to the blue side. Most of the shareholders sold up straightaway and made few quid. And people could buy their council houses back then, but the Tories made it easier due to massive discounts.Quote:
Originally Posted by dml1954
And people , I think, are now greedier and more concerned about their own wealth and status than anything else. If people wanted the middle ground why doesn't the LibDems get more votes? I find hard to believe how people can switch between Labour and Conservative. Disillusioned Labour voters would never do that in the past, they may go to Plaid or LD but not the Tories. Likewise disillusioned Tories.
Wales, well the South Wales valleys and the so called Red Wall up North, are the last bastions of Labour votes. Scotland has gone it's own way mainly to the detriment of Labour and now even places like Hartlepool are electing Tory MPs. I think Plaid have failed too, Wales are not interested in Independence but I do believe they would have done better had they not focused in that particular issue. The LDs look finished in Wales though.
I don't think any of the three main leaders are popular, Drakeford because of the restrictions, The PC bloke who always very shouty and angry, and Andrew 'RT' Davies. who just ambles on in a monotone.
So we will get a Labour /PC coalition then?
Honestly, I hope it’s like The Emperor’s New Clothes with Johnson and there’ll come a moment when everyone will see him for what he is, but I’m not holding my breath - I don’t think all Tory voters are thick, but then they fall for the Bullingdon boy’s “man of the people” Schtick - why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
Because i believe that people feel massively disengaged, Politically. It's as if politics isn't there to be taken seriously. If Starmer became more Populist, vulgar, reactionary etc, then i'm sure that plenty of people would like it. I really believe that it's all about personality, and the ones that act like the biggest Donkey at the party are embraced in the same way an obnoxious pissed up uncle at a Family occasion is tolerated with that lift of the eyebrows and wry grin.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
My attitude and my opinions what you talking about? Where have I said that people who vote Tory are stark staring bonkers? All I’ve done is to state facts. Come on where’s your counter arguments to mine?Quote:
Originally Posted by dml1954
Good article.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I think he's got it right.
Especially the last paragraph on the direction Labour should take - but sadly not the one they/we will take. It will be double down.
I think one of Labour's problems is the desire to have the "perfect" Labour party before being able to compete for government whereas one of the strongest points of the Tory party is that they get into government then disagree behind closed doors.
So many hot-takes today on what Labour did wrong and where it should go. Keir was promoted as the unifying candidate between center and left of the party and tasked with making it a more responsible party ready to lead - that still needs to happen.
Exactly, corbyn scared the life out of people who had been working hard all their lives, he’s too backward, they feared tax’s like the 70’s again. My old man who was born in a house in hunter street in the docks and worked in a factory there his whole life never forgot it until the day he died, never voted for them again. JC was already talking about basically taking peoples houses instead of letting their kids inherit them....no one is going to happy with that shi*t......Quote:
Originally Posted by dml1954
The best comments I have read, that echo my own thoughts and sentiments, on the 6 pages, so far on here. Exactly the reasons why I would never ever vote for the scummy low life toriesQuote:
Originally Posted by ninian opinian
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4g6k1a4XYAQuote:
Originally Posted by goats
Audience member: "I am nowhere near the top 5% of earners in the UK....I'm not even in the top 50% but you're going to increase my taxes."
Labour representative: "We're not going to increase income tax on anyone who isn't in the top 5% of earners."
Audience member: "you're going to increase my taxes.I'm not even in the top 50% but you're going to increase my taxes."
QT host: "Do you earn over £80,000?"
Audience member: "Yes."
QT host: "I think that is the top 5%."
(some quotes adjusted to get the point across but nothing major).
Probably because they don't share your views. As your name says, it's an 'opinion'.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninian opinian
Thank you sir. I also forget to mention the exams fiasco, the track and trace balls up, disgusting treatment of the Windrush generation, Grenfell, the haunted pencil (Mogg) saying those who died didn’t use common sense. Patels bullying and breaking the ministerial code for the second time , the first for holding undisclosed meetings in Israel. And there’s a lot bloody more. I’ll say it again I just don’t get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68
The only opinion though is the one I made about giving health care workers a pay rise. Am I wrong on anything else?Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
Not saying you are 'wrong' on anything. But I was picking up your comment - that others have also made here - that they don't understand why anyone would vote conservative. That argument could cut both ways. There's no right or wrong, or good or bad party, it's just a personal choice.Quote:
Originally Posted by ninian opinian
Quote:
Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish
Indeed , it's called free speech and democracy.
All these people on here, ranting about how they hate the Tories, and why Labour should be doing better, all seem to be missing the point. And also, they're not asking the obvious question - why did the Conservatives win Hartlepool? Why did the majority of voters put their X in the Conservative box? Those people obviously can see something that the Labour Party leader(s) can't.
One thing they don't care about is the colour of the Downing Street wallpaper. It's totally irrelevant.
What they have seen is that after years in the political wilderness, Labour are still like a chicken with no head. They have no ideas, and no direction. No-one knows what they stand for any more. If the Guardian can see it, so can everyone else.
They've also seen the benefits of having a Tory MP or Mayor. Fair or not, your constituency will reap the benefits of voting blue.
I've said it before, but Wales has suffered from having a Labour administration under a Tory UK government. When Labour was in power, they took Wales for granted. When the Conservatives are in power, they can afford to ignore Wales, and let the Senedd take the blame. Now, if the Welsh voted in the Tories, then you'd see the money start to arrive.
So basically what you’re saying is that the Tories are a bunch of bastards who will only look after those who vote for them. And there was me thinking we were all equal in the good old United Kingdom. PS it’s not wallpaper let’s call it what it is and that’s corruption.Quote:
Originally Posted by tforturton
So if the what’s in it for me party has all this money to throw about, why the ten years of austerity which they, and plenty of others it would appear, have decided to forget about?Quote:
Originally Posted by tforturton
https://inews.co.uk/opinion/hartlepo...cceeded-991356
The reality about Hartlepool that Labour can’t face is that perhaps it didn’t fail – the Tories succeeded
Instead of trying to reinvent Tory sleaze Labour should have taken a bolder vision to the electorate around opportunity post Brexit instead of negativity , attacks social care funding via tax increases . That would have played out better that wallpapergate which appeared as a weak pre election tool .Quote:
Originally Posted by tforturton
Seems no 10 refurbishment is not a new story :
https://www.theguardian.com/politics....politicalnews
I hope people realise that the big thing is that Boris now owes someone unknown a favour and we don't know what they want to do with it. And that rather than quickly explain Boris would rather taxpayer's money be spent on an inquiry.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Tories acting irresponsibly and Labour having a bold, positive vision - not one or the other.
Labour are fighting elections with 30 year old tactics. Mandy, Brown and Blair may have been bright new things copying the Clinton campaign with the reliance of focus group. In the meantime the tories have learnt from Cummings with all the Cambridge analytica shenanigans.
The left right thing went 15 years ago, the working class are just about surviving, there is little organised labour outside the public sector. Much of the working class has cottoned on to labours middle class bourgeois takeover. Very few unions regional or national reps make it to MP's any more, loads form Oxbridge P.E.P graduates, making it to SPAG's then parachuted into "safe seats". Yes the tories do the same thing, but have never pretended to be any different.
Labour are seen as the woke party, loads of middle class puritans antagonizing all those just trying to make end meet.
The working class suddenly don't believe in the tories, they just have totally given up on labour. The Jocks have the SNP, they don't have to vote for independence if it happens. Wales has the valleys with the pathological hatred of the tories and Plaid are a party for farmers and nationalist ideologs 120 years too late. The libs/green are just another version of Starmers labour.
No idea what labour do next.
Sludge and his ilk are the reason for Labours demise. They took the party too far left for the average Labour voter.
The party is now in chaos and divided.
I voted Plaid. I can’t stand the labour candidate in Merthyr.
FYI, even Andrew Neil (he of GB News fame) has said he agrees with woke'ness - a term that refers to awareness of issues that concern social justice and racial justice. His issue seems to be minimal: how it's being employed by some.Quote:
Originally Posted by llan bluebird
yeah rightQuote:
Originally Posted by J R Hartley
I hated corbyn , livingstone , Abbott etc
We need a left of centre party to defeat the tories
The Labour Party is toxic now , incredible when you look at the conservatives and what they get up to but hey ho
Wales free of tory power ?
Its a good night for me
God bless Wrexham , top lads taking it to the fascists in Manchester and keeping out the tories tonight
God bless em
The Labour candidate from Merthyr is from Bristol. No connection to the town. Voted against free meals for vulnerable in this pandemic. In one of the most impoverished areas in the country. So clearly she doesn’t understand the area she’s meant to represent. In fact in her victory speech she thanked the people of Merthyr and Tydfil. I ****ing despair.
You are as left wing as Chris Waddle old sportQuote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Wrexham , always there when it mattersQuote:
Originally Posted by J R Hartley
You are wasting your vote with plaid sonny
He really isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by J R Hartley
My vote is my vote. I stay true to myself. If you can’t vote Plaid in a vote for the Senedd then when can you vote them? The only party with Welsh interests at heart. I have an irrational hatred for the self serving Labour Senedd candidate in my area and I will never vote the Tories so I’m snookered either way. It is what it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
BOWDEN OUT
Tony benn talked a good gameQuote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
But it was all talk
I am chuffed the tories are not governing Wales tonight
You are still trying to sell copies of socialist worker
Its fun , but gets you nowhere
Its still a wasted voteQuote:
Originally Posted by J R Hartley
You should have written your weekly shopping list for uncle bert on the polling card
It is what it is
I'd rather be 'Nowhere' than be where you are :thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY