Taking The Knee To Continue ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lardy

Does it only count when someone is born?

If a new country is formed, do they have a population of zero until babies start getting born?

---

This was the basis for impressment which was one of the causes of the war of 1812.

Marx would have been considered Prussian, much in the way you had Hessians, Hanoverians, and so on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

I see, so what you are saying is that because Africans are poor, they shouldn't be educated on how they played their part in the slave trade.

no one is disputing the europeans created a much larger slave market, but those markets already existed. It wasn't the europeans that created them. If you want to do something about slavery, don't look to the past, look at how many people are estimated to be slaves today and try and do something about that. It is still rife in Mauritania.

---

No you daft sod , I am saying in much of Africa the education is about finding water and food , if there is any education at all

In much of Western Europe we have a state funded education system which affords the pupils the opportunity to be educated about the slave trade

I am glad that the teachers of today are educating pupils about the slave trade , it wasn't like that in my day

However your extensive practical knowledge of teaching is sadly missed and its clear you are wasted in the world of finance

You should change career and tell the educational establishment they are all wrong

Let me know how you get on

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

This was the basis for impressment which was one of the causes of the war of 1812.

Marx would have been considered Prussian, much in the way you had Hessians, Hanoverians, and so on.

---

These prussians........are we talking about the men who formed much of hitlers nazi elite and generals ?

Adolf Hitler , that GERMAN nazi ?

Sounds like these prussians were about as German as you can get 😉

Such a shame that Feedback could not explain to The King's German Legion (fought for the British against Napoleonic France 1803-15) that they didn't exist. They were disbanded in 1816 - a year after the formation of the German Confederation of German speaking states and 3 years before Marx was born.

But of course Feedback is right - national identity can only be defined against membership of a sovereign state. Which will also come as a big disappointment to many citizens of western Britain who believe (falsely according to Feedback) that they are Welsh!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

This was the basis for impressment which was one of the causes of the war of 1812.

Marx would have been considered Prussian, much in the way you had Hessians, Hanoverians, and so on.

---

So you would call Luca Modric Yugoslavian and not Croatian, would you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

These prussians........are we talking about the men who formed much of hitlers nazi elite and generals ?

Adolf Hitler , that GERMAN nazi ?

Sounds like these prussians were about as German as you can get 😉

---

Hitler was Austrian. Just saying

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon1959

Such a shame that Feedback could not explain to The King's German Legion (fought for the British against Napoleonic France 1803-15) that they didn't exist. They were disbanded in 1816 - a year after the formation of the German Confederation of German speaking states and 3 years before Marx was born.

But of course Feedback is right - national identity can only be defined against membership of a sovereign state. Which will also come as a big disappointment to many citizens of western Britain who believe (falsely according to Feedback) that they are Welsh!

---

Why can't I explain the Kings German legion? Hardly surprising the king raised a legion considering he was elector of Hannover.

You seem to be of the opinion that because the English language uses the roman cognomen for an inhabitant of Germania, that the inhabitants referred to this themselves.

Prior to confederation and even unification, the patchwork of states were fiercely independent and referred to themselves as saxon, prussian, bavarian and so on. They most certainly did not refer to themselves as German.

Even today bavarians do not necessarily see themselves as german.

I love all Marcomanni, Alamanni, Franks, Anglos, Saxons, Vandals, Gepids, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Alans, Burgundians, and Lombards.

Them germanics , certainly spewd it about .

Not sure if they were into taking the knee

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by life on mars

I love all Marcomanni, Alamanni, Franks, Anglos, Saxons, Vandals, Gepids, Ostrogoths, Visigoths, Alans, Burgundians, and Lombards.

Them germanics , certainly spewd it about .

Not sure if they were into taking the knee

---

You refer to the ingvaeonic and irminonic

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

Why can't I explain the Kings German legion? Hardly surprising the king raised a legion considering he was elector of Hannover.

No - why can't you explain why it was called the German Legion if Germany didn't exist until 1871.

You seem to be of the opinion that because the English language uses the roman cognomen for an inhabitant of Germania, that the inhabitants referred to this themselves.

It was called the Deutscher Bund by the participants. I have used the English translation for your benefit. Please tell me 'Deutscher' doesn't translate as 'German'!

Prior to confederation and even unification, the patchwork of states were fiercely independent and referred to themselves as saxon, prussian, bavarian and so on. They most certainly did not refer to themselves as German.

You sure? Many of my neighbours insist they are Yorkshiremen and women. Regional and local identities occur everywhere - whether or not they are tied to a political border. As 'Germany' and 'German' have been used since the 10th century at least (maybe even the 2nd century) inside and outside what we think of as Germany, why are you so confident that the description wasn't used or understood at the time of Marx's birth? My understanding (from reading about the period) is that most people considered themselves to be German citizens of whatever state they came from - Prussia, Hesse, Saxony or whatever. Marx wrote about the Prussian state and the German people. Many posters on here think of themselves as Welsh citizens of the UK. Not a difficult or contentious view - and completely consistent with what NYCBlue wrote that got you off point scoring

Even today bavarians do not necessarily see themselves as german.

Which helpfully undermines all your earlier misconceived arguments and ends this little debate.

---

Thanks - I enjoyed that. Hard work but we got there in the end. :thumbup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon1959

Thanks - I enjoyed that. Hard work but we got there in the end. :thumbup:

---

You are misinformed.

The English language refers to the land as German and Germany from the Latin germania. In the German language "deutsche" has etymology in the teutonic knights, which stems from proto german for "people"...rather than deutsche being German language for German.

So whilst german/Germany may be used in the English language, these are not terms used by those speaking any of the varieties of the sprachraum.

Think of cymry/cymru. It doesn't mean welsh/Wales (which in saxon wealas was foreigner), but meant country/countrymen.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

You are misinformed.

The English language refers to the land as German and Germany from the Latin germania. In German "deutsche" has etymology in the teutonic knights, which stems from proto german for "people"...rather than deutsche being German language for German.

So whilst german may be used in the English language, these are not terms used by those speaking any of the varieties of the sprachraum.

---

So was the Young Germany movement (active from 1830-1850, Marx described them as the Young Germans) not about the political future of the German states? Was the tract published by Marx and Engels on German Ideology in 1846 something to do with 'the people' of central Europe and not about the states, ideologies and social organisation of the German states? You insisted that Marx was a Prussian (who became stateless) not a German. It is clear from his own writings that he considered himself to be a German.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

You are misinformed.

The English language refers to the land as German and Germany from the Latin germania. In the German language "deutsche" has etymology in the teutonic knights, which stems from proto german for "people"...rather than deutsche being German language for German.

So whilst german/Germany may be used in the English language, these are not terms used by those speaking any of the varieties of the sprachraum.

Think of cymry/cymru. It doesn't mean welsh/Wales (which in saxon wealas was foreigner), but meant country/countrymen.

---

You ok, Hun x

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon1959

So was the Young Germany movement (active from 1830-1850, Marx described them as the Young Germans) not about the political future of the German states? Was the tract published by Marx and Engels on German Ideology in 1846 something to do with 'the people' of central Europe and not about the states, ideologies and social organisation of the German states? You insisted that Marx was a Prussian (who became stateless) not a German. It is clear from his own writings that he considered himself to be a German.

---

Did he? Show me where marx wrote "I am a German?"

And just to be clear...the group you refer to was junges deutschland...which literally means "the young people of our land".

Wait until you hear about the belgie, who were neither French, or Dutch.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

You ok, Hun x

---

I am now sweetcheeks xx

I would love to contribute to this debate about the concept of Germany but I have avowed to shut my traps about such things :hehe:

Bet you lot are a barrel of laughs down the football.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I would love to contribute to this debate about the concept of Germany but I have avowed to shut my traps about such things :hehe:

---

Please, go on and add your twopenneth

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

You are misinformed.

The English language refers to the land as German and Germany from the Latin germania. In the German language "deutsche" has etymology in the teutonic knights, which stems from proto german for "people"...rather than deutsche being German language for German.

So whilst german/Germany may be used in the English language, these are not terms used by those speaking any of the varieties of the sprachraum.

Think of cymry/cymru. It doesn't mean welsh/Wales (which in saxon wealas was foreigner), but meant country/countrymen.

---

Hence 'Wallonia' and 'Wallachia' as the term 'wealas' was eventually use generically for foreigners. Funnily enough, I am leading a walk in the Quantocks (Cantuctun in Saxon) and which includes the highest peak i.e. Wills Neck. The 'Wills' component being cognate with 'wealas' as it is thought that the area was the buffer between the Saxon Kingdom and the Britons.

At the risk of boring people to death, the word 'slave' and 'Slav' are also cognate due to the latter people being subjugated and their 'tribal' name being used for others who became subjugated.

I'm probably talking to myself here but I'm working on it :hehe:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

Please, go on and add your twopenneth

---

I daren't. I'll just say that there's a certain country in Europe that is referred to by its neighbours by very different names and which relate to different tribes that were in its modern-day boundaries.....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Hence 'Wallonia' and 'Wallachia' as the term 'wealas' was eventually use generically for foreigners. Funnily enough, I am leading a walk in the Quantocks (Cantuctun in Saxon) and which includes the highest peak i.e. Wills Neck. The 'Wills' component being cognate with 'wealas' as it is thought that the area was the buffer between the Saxon Kingdom and the Britons.

At the risk of boring people to death, the word 'slave' and 'Slav' are also cognate due to the latter people being subjugated and their 'tribal' name being used for others who became subjugated.

I'm probably talking to myself here but I'm working on it :hehe:

---

You're not talking to yourself. I'm pretty sure it was the Romans (the Latins not the byzantiums) who referred to the people as slavs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I daren't. I'll just say that there's a certain country in Europe that is referred to by its neighbours by very different names and which relate to different tribes that were in its modern-day boundaries.....

---

For example, allemagne

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

For example, allemagne

---

I can't possibly comment or add several more to your singular example :hehe:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I can't possibly comment or add several more to your singular example :hehe:

---

I do wonder how these individual tribes referred to themselves. Perhaps they referred to each other differently, or perhaps they referred to each other as being the same, a collective, so to speak.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

I do wonder how these individual tribes referred to themselves. Perhaps they referred to each other differently, or perhaps they referred to each other as being the same, a collective, so to speak.

---

I think it was common for tribes to consider themselves as 'people' or similar and to consider outsiders as just that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

I think it was common for tribes to consider themselves as 'people' or similar and to consider outsiders as just that.

---

But the picts have been attested as being brythonic, yet they referred to themselves as anything but

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

But the picts have been attested as being brythonic, yet they referred to themselves as anything but

---

Labels and the concept of self-identity are a fascinating concepts in life and they sometimes don't actually mean anything.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Labels and the concept of self-identity are a fascinating concepts in life and they sometimes don't actually mean anything.

---

Agreed

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lardy

"But I once played in a rugby team in the Army composed of fourteen Fijians and me."

I wonder why they made him play on the opposition :hehe:

---

I once played hooker in a team where the rest of the pack were fijian. They sared me as much as they scared the opposition but in the aftergame piss up I was bombproof lol

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Can't the rest of you just tell Feedback he's right even if you don't believe it? It's clearly very important to him that he believes he is.

---

I wish I'd followed your advice earlier.... just after his reference to 'irredentism' showed where the thread was going.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

These prussians........are we talking about the men who formed much of hitlers nazi elite and generals ?

Adolf Hitler , that GERMAN nazi ?

Sounds like these prussians were about as German as you can get 😉

---

Adolg Hitler wasn't German!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lardy

So you would call Luca Modric Yugoslavian and not Croatian, would you?

---

Aww no reply :frown:

Just found this statement about Mr Marx https://www.britannica.com/biography...russels-period

"He was expelled from France and left for Brussels—followed by Engels—in February 1845. That year in Belgium he renounced his Prussian nationality."

Thought provoking stuff from David Conn;-

https://www.theguardian.com/football...land-euro-2020

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lardy

Aww no reply :frown:

---

Croatia was part of Yugoslavia before it broke up.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon1959

I wish I'd followed your advice earlier.... just after his reference to 'irredentism' showed where the thread was going.

---

Did it? Where did you think it was going?

In the 19th century there was no standard German language, with many different dialects and varieties. Plaatdeutsch/nedersachsen is an altogether different language spoken today by millions.

Even today parts of Germany have different identities: Borussia Dortmund, Bayern Munich....

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

Did it? Where did you think it was going?

In the 19th century there was no standard German language, with many different dialects and varieties. Plaatdeutsch/nedersachsen is an altogether different language spoken today by millions.

Even today parts of Germany have different identities: Borussia Dortmund, Bayern Munich....

---

You are just doubling down.

No one is disputing that Marx was born in Prussia - and that was his nation state until he was expelled or renounced it.

What I (and others) are saying is that he was a German citizen/subject of Prussia. When NYCBlue said Marx was German he was 100% correct. You have chosen to dispute that with ever more convoluted deep dives into Wiki. 'German' was and is an identity that describes someone from Germany and speaking German (whether a united state after 1871 or after the collapse of East Germany, or whether 39 politically separate states under the Holy Roman Empire or the German Confederation). It was an identity used by and understood by people inside and outside Germany at the time of Marx's birth.

But to get back to the starting point, critics of taking the knee who allege it is Marxist (or that the US BLM organisation is Marxist) in the main do so without the slightest understanding of what they mean by Marxism. Even worse they are often the ones who bang on about something they call 'cultural Marxism' which is (I think) a meaningless confection invented by former revolutionary communists (the Revolutionary Communist Party that went on a rightward journey through Living Marxism and Wired to the Brexit Party with Claire Fox and others) to confuse and mislead people. They succeeded.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by jon1959

You are just doubling down.

No one is disputing that Marx was born in Prussia - and that was his nation state until he was expelled or renounced it.

What I (and others) are saying is that he was a German citizen/subject of Prussia. When NYCBlue said Marx was German he was 100% correct. You have chosen to dispute that with ever more convoluted deep dives into Wiki. 'German' was and is an identity that describes someone from Germany and speaking German (whether a united state after 1871 or after the collapse of East Germany, or whether 39 politically separate states under the Holy Roman Empire or the German Confederation). It was an identity used by and understood by people inside and outside Germany at the time of Marx's birth.

But to get back to the starting point, critics of taking the knee who allege it is Marxist (or that the US BLM organisation is Marxist) in the main do so without the slightest understanding of what they mean by Marxism. Even worse they are often the ones who bang on about something they call 'cultural Marxism' which is (I think) a meaningless confection invented by former revolutionary communists (the Revolutionary Communist Party that went on a rightward journey through Living Marxism and Wired to the Brexit Party with Claire Fox and others) to confuse and mislead people. They succeeded.

---

Marx wasn't German, he was Prussian. He identified as Prussian in the same way Cromwell identified as English, not British.

Even today many of those in Germany identify as being Prussian, Bavarian, Hessian in the same way we identify as being Welsh, English etc.

The standard German we know today did not exist in the 19th century.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

Croatia was part of Yugoslavia before it broke up.

---

But his nationality was Yugoslavian. So he must always be Yugoslavian throughout his life, yes?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lardy

But his nationality was Yugoslavian. So he must always be Yugoslavian throughout his life, yes?

---

He was Croatian and yugoslavian at birth (as both existed) and following the dissolution of yugoslavia, just Croatian.