UPDATED: David Henderson - Found guilty.

The actions of the 2 pilots were clearly reckless at the least, but whether or not criminal in relation to this one charge is clearly open to question. I guess we will have a verdict today. 2hrs for a jury to be out is not actually very long.

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

I just googled it
Air crash investigators found enough carbon monoxide in his body to have caused a heart attack or seizure
The pilot would definitely have been affected as well
If the plane is faulty then surely the owner must bear some responsibility as well as Henderson employing an unfit pilot?

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Not in the situation where the owner doesn't operate the aircraft merely leases it to an operator. Responsibility passes to lessee operator as if were owner.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Surely it's important in a court of law, otherwise why have commercial licenses at all?

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a CPL allows the holder to fly for remuneration whereas if you have a PPL you cannot. The rules are quite clear but holding a CPL doesn't make you immediately a better pilot than a PPL. Quite a lot of CPL holders don't do much flying, certainly if they are instructors.

let me put it this way, if there was no money exchanged, then there would be no question of the rating held by Ibbotson (other than his lapsed night rating).

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Originally Posted by Toadstool

I think the defence is that without the piece of paper the flight would have still crashed, so even though Henderson is guilty of being a crap manager, he didn't do anything that would have altered the outcome.

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He supplied customers to his illegal operation the plane and a pilot whom he was instructed by the owner was not allowed to fly the plane. His operation failed to satisfy itself as to the qualifications and ratings of the pilot were genuine and all in order - no records. In running his operation in such a way the outcome was as it was.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

What do you mean by rules? In a legal sense, or an unwritten rule? It does seem complete madness to me.

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As a PPL I would not accept payment for any kind of flight. It is outside of the rules of my licence. You might offer to buy me a coffee at the destination airfield, and that's ok, but holding yourself out as someone who is available to hire for flights is a no no and needs to be respected.

If Ibbotson had flown without remuneration then we would not be discussing his rating.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

As a PPL I would not accept payment for any kind of flight. It is outside of the rules of my licence. You might offer to buy me a coffee at the destination airfield, and that's ok, but holding yourself out as someone who is available to hire for flights is a no no and needs to be respected.

If Ibbotson had flown without remuneration then we would not be discussing his rating.

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If he'd flown the plane successfully we wouldn't be discussing it either.

So Feedback may I ask you please in your professional opinion;
If you didn’t have the necessary paperwork to fly at night and you were in this single engined plane attempting several times to take off during a storm- would you have aborted?

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Originally Posted by lardy

If he'd flown the plane successfully we wouldn't be discussing it either.

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well yes of course. given the plane was a malibu, this was an aircraft well within the capabilities of any PPL to fly. What I cannot understand is why Ibbotson offered to fly a single engine aircraft over a large stretch of water at night. that's just adding two signficant risks for no reason.

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

So Feedback may I ask you please in your professional opinion;
If you didn’t have the necessary paperwork to fly at night and you were in this single engined plane attempting several times to take off during a storm- would you have aborted?

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I'm not a professional, I fly general aviation. If I wasn't rated to fly at night I wouldn't even be in the aircraft after dusk. If I was rated for night flying I wouldn't fly a single engine prop over water at night. If I was hoping to fly locally at night and there were storms (actual or forecast), I'd stay in the club house. if there were storms then its most likely you can only fly IFR (instrument flight rules) above the clouds and I doubt Ibbotson had an instrument rating if he didn't have a night rating.

the flight should never have happened. a better pilot would have waited until morning when better conditions were possible. the responsibility of the aircraft and its passengers wrests with the pilot in command at all times.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

I'm not a professional, I fly general aviation. If I wasn't rated to fly at night I wouldn't even be in the aircraft after dusk. If I was rated for night flying I wouldn't fly a single engine prop over water at night. If I was hoping to fly locally at night and there were storms (actual or forecast), I'd stay in the club house. if there were storms then its most likely you can only fly IFR (instrument flight rules) above the clouds and I doubt Ibbotson had an instrument rating if he didn't have a night rating.

the flight should never have happened. a better pilot would have waited until morning when better conditions were possible. the responsibility of the aircraft and its passengers wrests with the pilot in command at all times.

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From memory, wasn't the pilot in some financial difficulties? that could have played a part in his reckless actions if he thought he wouldn't get the job if he had to postpone it.

So even though tragically ibbotson lost his life along with Sala,ultimately the Pilot is grossly negligent.
I’m just try to understand exactly what Henderson can be found liable for?

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

So even though tragically ibbotson lost his life along with Sala,ultimately the Pilot is grossly negligent.
I’m just try to understand exactly what Henderson can be found liable for?

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He's the one who put Ibbotson in the plane. If he's not liable for that, then why even have regulations?

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

So even though tragically ibbotson lost his life along with Sala,ultimately the Pilot is grossly negligent.
I’m just try to understand exactly what Henderson can be found liable for?

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If BA, Ryanair etc started hiring applicants for pilots jobs merely going on their word that they hold the necessary qualifications and licenses - and said pilots were left to attempt to fly and subsequently start crashing planes - you'd say fair play the airlines aren't liable?

The trust McKay placed was in Henderson to supply him with adequate expertise.

It's pretty clear from the evidence in my opinion that Henderson had repeatedly used Ibbotson to fly passengers for his (Henderson's) clients, even though he knew Ibbotson's qualifications weren't sufficient and that he'd experienced/caused problems before. He was clearly happy to take that risk again with the Sala flight, with tragic consequences.
Surely anyone arranging flights for paying customers should know and record exactly what qualifications and experience their pilots have, which he didn't, because he didn't care.
That's endangering the safety of an aircraft in my book.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

From memory, wasn't the pilot in some financial difficulties? that could have played a part in his reckless actions if he thought he wouldn't get the job if he had to postpone it.

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that may be part of his motivation but really it should not. the rules are there for a reason, above all else flight safety trumps everything, and if it does not, then you really shouldn't be at the controls.

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Originally Posted by Undercoverinwurzelland

It's pretty clear from the evidence in my opinion that Henderson had repeatedly used Ibbotson to fly passengers for his (Henderson's) clients, even though he knew Ibbotson's qualifications weren't sufficient and that he'd experienced/caused problems before. He was clearly happy to take that risk again with the Sala flight, with tragic consequences.
Surely anyone arranging flights for paying customers should know and record exactly what qualifications and experience their pilots have, which he didn't, because he didn't care.
That's endangering the safety of an aircraft in my book.

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its also illegal, although not criminal. the CAA will have something to say to Henderson for sure.

We all agree that blaming or scapegoating the pilot is an easy despicable out for Henderson but like Feedback says
The Pilot at the controls is ultimately responsible

Cardiff will be seeking compensation via someone’s insurance

No unanimous verdict reached, so the judge has said he'll accept a 10-2 or 11-1 majority verdict.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

its also illegal, although not criminal. the CAA will have something to say to Henderson for sure.

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Potentially corporate manslaughter/homicide under the relevant act.

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

We all agree that blaming or scapegoating the pilot is an easy despicable out for Henderson but like Feedback says
The Pilot at the controls is ultimately responsible

Cardiff will be seeking compensation via someone’s insurance

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Now I know there is absolutely no responsibility involved, I might set up my own little airline.

Been found guilty

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Originally Posted by Butterwick Blue

Been found guilty

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Will he appeal? It could drag on.

No idea, they usually do

It’s a frustrating conundrum Lardy
Obviously the jury are in a dilemma
Henderson is guilty of hiring a pilot without the necessary paperwork
Henderson also went against the wishes of the plane’s owner by hiring ibbotson after being told she didn’t want him flying her plane
Mckay is guilty of being a Cnut and Cardiff are guilty of dealing with such Cnut knowing he’s a bankrupt whom the FA didn’t see fit to be a football agent
Ultimately though the Pilot (ibbotson) should NEVER have taken off at night over water in an unfit plane during a storm
They all played a part but like Feedback says the person at the controls is responsible

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

It’s a frustrating conundrum Lardy
Obviously the jury are in a dilemma
Henderson is guilty of hiring a pilot without the necessary paperwork
Henderson also went against the wishes of the plane’s owner by hiring ibbotson after being told she didn’t want him flying her plane
Mckay is guilty of being a Cnut and Cardiff are guilty of dealing with such Cnut knowing he’s a bankrupt whom the FA didn’t see fit to be a football agent
Ultimately though the Pilot (ibbotson) should NEVER have taken off at night over water in an unfit plane during a storm
They all played a part but like Feedback says the person at the controls is responsible

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And very sad to know that Sala thought the plane unfit, too.

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

It’s a frustrating conundrum Lardy
Obviously the jury are in a dilemma
Henderson is guilty of hiring a pilot without the necessary paperwork
Henderson also went against the wishes of the plane’s owner by hiring ibbotson after being told she didn’t want him flying her plane
Mckay is guilty of being a Cnut and Cardiff are guilty of dealing with such Cnut knowing he’s a bankrupt whom the FA didn’t see fit to be a football agent
Ultimately though the Pilot (ibbotson) should NEVER have taken off at night over water in an unfit plane during a storm
They all played a part but like Feedback says the person at the controls is responsible

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Well ok, but in my eyes it's not a conundrum because more than one person can be responsible for events.

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

It’s a frustrating conundrum Lardy
Obviously the jury are in a dilemma
Henderson is guilty of hiring a pilot without the necessary paperwork
Henderson also went against the wishes of the plane’s owner by hiring ibbotson after being told she didn’t want him flying her plane
Mckay is guilty of being a Cnut and Cardiff are guilty of dealing with such Cnut knowing he’s a bankrupt whom the FA didn’t see fit to be a football agent
Ultimately though the Pilot (ibbotson) should NEVER have taken off at night over water in an unfit plane during a storm
They all played a part but like Feedback says the person at the controls is responsible

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Wasn’t McKay acting for Nantes and Sala rather than Cardiff. I don’t think we can blame the club if that’s who others choose to represent them.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-59062626

Guilty

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

It’s a frustrating conundrum Lardy
Obviously the jury are in a dilemma
Henderson is guilty of hiring a pilot without the necessary paperwork
Henderson also went against the wishes of the plane’s owner by hiring ibbotson after being told she didn’t want him flying her plane
Mckay is guilty of being a Cnut and Cardiff are guilty of dealing with such Cnut knowing he’s a bankrupt whom the FA didn’t see fit to be a football agent
Ultimately though the Pilot (ibbotson) should NEVER have taken off at night over water in an unfit plane during a storm
They all played a part but like Feedback says the person at the controls is responsible

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with a summary like that its pretty clear where the blame lies, in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Well ok, but in my eyes it's not a conundrum because more than one person can be responsible for events.

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not when flying an aircraft. Aviation Law is crystal clear about who is ultimately responsible - always PIC (Pilot in Command).

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Originally Posted by Feedback

with a summary like that its pretty clear where the blame lies, in my opinion.

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Blame doesn't need to be on one person.

If Ibbotson had survived and Sala died, Henderson would still take some responsibility.

Was the verdict majority of unanimous?

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Originally Posted by Feedback

not when flying an aircraft. Aviation Law is crystal clear about who is ultimately responsible - always PIC (Pilot in Command).

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As said before, why don't BA just let anyone fly their planes?

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Originally Posted by IanD

And very sad to know that Sala thought the plane unfit, too.

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Sickening really , R.I.P Emiliano Sala and thoughts are with Marina and family. Upsetting.

Some justice for the Sala family.

Majority according to the BBC report.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Blame doesn't need to be on one person.

If Ibbotson had survived and Sala died, Henderson would still take some responsibility.

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I agree

This case wasn’t about blaming Henderson solely for the deaths but showing his part in events

I agree Hilts
Justice at last for the Sala family!!

Does anyone know the penalty for “endangering an aircraft” and the probable sentence?

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Originally Posted by Sunnysideup

I agree Hilts
Justice at last for the Sala family!!

Does anyone know the penalty for “endangering an aircraft” and the probable sentence?

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Maximum penalty 10 years

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Originally Posted by Feedback

not when flying an aircraft. Aviation Law is crystal clear about who is ultimately responsible - always PIC (Pilot in Command).

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Does this still apply if that pilot should not have been in the cockpit?