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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
About £13. Even at £9.50 it's only just over approx. £18K before deductions for most people. £13 would bring it up to around £25K before deductions. It's a misnomer anyway because many people working will need to claim in-work-benefits e.g. HB.
I'm more interested in a Universal Basic Income anyway. It'll come. It's just a matter of time. Multi-millionaires telling the rest of us how to manage and live is way too hypocritical for me, especially when they've inherited their wealth in the first place.
Pretty much where I am at.
UBI is fascinating.
Reading a lot of research on it and looking at the pilot schemes.
I think for many people they will struggle with the idea of giving everyone 'free money' and believe it will make people lazy... which hasn't been the experience of the pilots which, because of the UBI safety net, has seen innovation explode, business start, an increase in people getting involved in arts and music, people being happier as they do what they want to so... and then some of the more menial jobs still being taken by people who want to supplement their UBI income. And yes, there were some examples of people who just didn't want to do anything.... BUT they still spend their UBI money and bounce up the economy. Furthermore..... state schemes and welfare costs go down as UBI replaced some of them. Additionally, some parents want to spend more time with their kids rather than being forced into jobs they hate to pay the bills and pay for someone else to look after their kids.. surely we should allow them to spend more time parenting and less time being forced to work - because that what capitalism demands.
Anyway, I am still learning about it and think its fascinating.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AfricanBluebird
Pretty much where I am at.
UBI is fascinating.
Reading a lot of research on it and looking at the pilot schemes.
I think for many people they will struggle with the idea of giving everyone 'free money' and believe it will make people lazy... which hasn't been the experience of the pilots which, because of the UBI safety net, has seen innovation explode, business start, an increase in people getting involved in arts and music, people being happier as they do what they want to so... and then some of the more menial jobs still being taken by people who want to supplement their UBI income. And yes, there were some examples of people who just didn't want to do anything.... BUT they still spend their UBI money and bounce up the economy. Furthermore..... state schemes and welfare costs go down as UBI replaced some of them. Additionally, some parents want to spend more time with their kids rather than being forced into jobs they hate to pay the bills and pay for someone else to look after their kids.. surely we should allow them to spend more time parenting and less time being forced to work - because that what capitalism demands.
Anyway, I am still learning about it and think its fascinating.
We're still stuck in old politics and economics. Climate change will be the driver and associated health and travel issues. The environment we live in will determine how we survive and it won't look anything like it does now over the next couple of decades. People just don't want to face it because it's too big an ask. UBI will have to be part of the plan though.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
If anyone thinks Sunak is a right winger they need to understand that this government has collected more in taxes as a proportion of national income than any other before. This is after allowing for Covid19 spending. Likewise, the money spent on providing public services is at a level never previously seen before.
Yet some say the Tories are right wing. By and large they are but we do have a chancellor who is far more centrist in his approach.
I recall you calling George Osborne a centrist...
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AfricanBluebird
Pretty much where I am at.
UBI is fascinating.
Reading a lot of research on it and looking at the pilot schemes.
I think for many people they will struggle with the idea of giving everyone 'free money' and believe it will make people lazy... which hasn't been the experience of the pilots which, because of the UBI safety net, has seen innovation explode, business start, an increase in people getting involved in arts and music, people being happier as they do what they want to so... and then some of the more menial jobs still being taken by people who want to supplement their UBI income. And yes, there were some examples of people who just didn't want to do anything.... BUT they still spend their UBI money and bounce up the economy. Furthermore..... state schemes and welfare costs go down as UBI replaced some of them. Additionally, some parents want to spend more time with their kids rather than being forced into jobs they hate to pay the bills and pay for someone else to look after their kids.. surely we should allow them to spend more time parenting and less time being forced to work - because that what capitalism demands.
Anyway, I am still learning about it and think its fascinating.
I'm sceptical, but also interested in it.
What I don't really understand is how or why it would be so transformative. If someone is currently unemployed or in low paid work and struggling with housing costs then they will receive benefits for "doing nothing". UBI essentially proposes the same doesn't it?
Is the main difference that they know they will keep the UBI even if they take on work? I can see how this provides some stability, but again isn't entirely different in practice to how benefits currently work.
I also struggle to see how other costs won't just realign themselves to the new income reality.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
is that what Bob meant? Then why didn't he say it?
if you think that Boris and the Tories didn't fully capitalise on the "Britain Deserves Better" slogan, then you need to go and have a look a the whitewash that general election was.
It clearly escapes many people, but the UK is not Wales. Whilst the majority in Wales may see things differently vis a vis the Tories, that does not correlate to how the rest of the UK views that political party. If they did, the Tories would not have the majority in parliament that they currently do.
Despite Brexit, despite austerity, despite the changes to the benefits system, the Tories are as strong as ever. There is a reason for that and its because the UK, as a whole, is doing ok. People only really call for change when things go wrong, which is what happened to Labour in 2007/8 and what happened to the Tories in 1994. Outside of that, other than the vocal minority on both sides, most people don't care.
I think the whitewash was more about 'Get Brexit Done' than 'Britain Deserves Better (than us)' and I think if you took 100 people and asked them what the Tory slogan was in 2019, absolutely nobody would say the second one.
I don't live in Wales, I live in a safe Tory seat in Hertfordshire. Fully aware of how the Tories are viewed round here, they are the default vote for many (similar to Labour in Wales) and don't really have to earn it. Having said that I do know a handful who will never vote for them again because of Brexit, a handful isn't enough to win a seat though.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
I think Bob's point is that the conservatives political cover during the 2010's was almost entirely 'cleaning up the mess left by labour' and this was very very rarely challenged in the media. Now Boris is permitted by the same media to absolve himself and his government of all responsibility for his parties period in government, this doesn't happen by accident. He even nearly got away with running in 2019 on a slogan of 'Britain Deserves Better' ffs :hehe:
Exactly what I meant - "levelling up" is laughable, "getting back to when it was not quite as bad as it is now" isn't quite as punchy though is it.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Exactly what I meant - "levelling up" is laughable, "getting back to when it was not quite as bad as it is now" isn't quite as punchy though is it.
Obviously all slogans are by definition pretty banal and meaningless, and it goes without saying that it's delivery that matters. But personally I don't see what's wrong with 'Levelling up'
It says to me that we know mistakes were made in the past and we want to create a strong economy with a greater emphasis on helping those towards the bottom.
It's quite clever politically too, because it means you can throw accusations of 'levelling down' at the opposition.
It's just a slogan however and it is all about delivering real results. I'm sure we can all agree on that!:thumbup:
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
So suggest one for in London and out of London then.
Probably needs to be more nuanced than that although it is a start. I can't see how it should be less than £13 in London when thinking about accommodation vs travel cost. As somebody who doesn't live in London but still pays ~£900 a month renting a 1bed (and that is complete bottom end where I live), I can't find a way to define a 'rest of uk' min wage.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
I recall you calling George Osborne a centrist...
Lebron James thinks Peter Crouch is a midget
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I'm sceptical, but also interested in it.
What I don't really understand is how or why it would be so transformative. If someone is currently unemployed or in low paid work and struggling with housing costs then they will receive benefits for "doing nothing". UBI essentially proposes the same doesn't it?
Is the main difference that they know they will keep the UBI even if they take on work? I can see how this provides some stability, but again isn't entirely different in practice to how benefits currently work.
I also struggle to see how other costs won't just realign themselves to the new income reality.
The main difference is that it is applied within a future where most human beings have no use at all and therefore the vast majority are unemployed. If Humans are rendered useless in that way then you probably have 3 options, a reasonable living UBI, 'north korea' (where lots of people are essentially actors, pretending to work - in before feedy with some public sector slur) or mad max where bezos allows us to have water 3 times a week. UBI isn't there to transform, a transformation of society requires it.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
The main difference is that it is applied within a future where most human beings have no use at all and therefore the vast majority are unemployed. If Humans are rendered useless in that way then you probably have 3 options, a reasonable living UBI, 'north korea' (where lots of people are essentially actors, pretending to work - in before feedy with some public sector slur) or mad max where bezos allows us to have water 3 times a week. UBI isn't there to transform, a transformation of society requires it.
Okay, cool, ta.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Obviously all slogans are by definition pretty banal and meaningless, and it goes without saying that it's delivery that matters. But personally I don't see what's wrong with 'Levelling up'
It says to me that we know mistakes were made in the past and we want to create a strong economy with a greater emphasis on helping those towards the bottom.
It's quite clever politically too, because it means you can throw accusations of 'levelling down' at the opposition.
It's just a slogan however and it is all about delivering real results. I'm sure we can all agree on that!:thumbup:
The Leave/Conservative side of the divide have won the War of the Slogan hands down in recent years. :thumbup:
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I'm sceptical, but also interested in it.
What I don't really understand is how or why it would be so transformative. If someone is currently unemployed or in low paid work and struggling with housing costs then they will receive benefits for "doing nothing". UBI essentially proposes the same doesn't it?
Is the main difference that they know they will keep the UBI even if they take on work? I can see how this provides some stability, but again isn't entirely different in practice to how benefits currently work.
I also struggle to see how other costs won't just realign themselves to the new income reality.
The attitude that people trying to survive are 'doing nothing' is a scary one, especially if they're already in full-time work and still can't support themselves. UBI is nothing like the current benefits - which are meant to be social security - recipients of social security were demonised under the Cameron/Clegg coalition and the degradation that chronically disabled people are subjected to by private companies is cruel and ironically, discriminatory.
People need to feel valued and safe. UBI starts to address those issues. But, the misinformation train has already left the station and there are predominantly US 'studies' advocating the status quo.
People need to stop thinking like 2021 is going to look anything like 2031 or 2041. It's not. The current incumbents of power will be long gone, as will our easy lives. With an increase in AI and human population how will capitalism sustain itself? It can't and it won't. UBI will be start but I doubt future generations are going to look back and say, 'thank you for procrastinating Grandad'.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
The main difference is that it is applied within a future where most human beings have no use at all and therefore the vast majority are unemployed. If Humans are rendered useless in that way then you probably have 3 options, a reasonable living UBI, 'north korea' (where lots of people are essentially actors, pretending to work - in before feedy with some public sector slur) or mad max where bezos allows us to have water 3 times a week. UBI isn't there to transform, a transformation of society requires it.
Brilliant summary Eric! I think it'll be Bezos and Musk factions slogging it out Mad Max style to be honest.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
The attitude that people trying to survive are 'doing nothing' is a scary one, especially if they're already in full-time work and still can't support themselves. UBI is nothing like the current benefits - which are meant to be social security - recipients of social security were demonised under the Cameron/Clegg coalition and the degradation that chronically disabled people are subjected to by private companies is cruel and ironically, discriminatory.
People need to feel valued and safe. UBI starts to address those issues. But, the misinformation train has already left the station and there are predominantly US 'studies' advocating the status quo.
People need to stop thinking like 2021 is going to look anything like 2031 or 2041. It's not. The current incumbents of power will be long gone, as will our easy lives. With an increase in AI and human population how will capitalism sustain itself? It can't and it won't. UBI will be start but I doubt future generations are going to look back and say, 'thank you for procrastinating Grandad'.
To clarify: I don't think they are "doing nothing", I said that because an earlier post said that is a criticism of UBI.
My point was that I didnt understand in practice how it was different to current benefits, although I do appreciate, in theory, it could provide more of a safety blanket.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
To clarify: I don't think they are "doing nothing", I said that because an earlier post said that is a criticism of UBI.
My point was that I didnt understand in practice how it was different to current benefits, although I do appreciate, in theory, it could provide more of a safety blanket.
I didn't think you were. But there are people who do so I just wanted to say something about it.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
To clarify: I don't think they are "doing nothing", I said that because an earlier post said that is a criticism of UBI.
My point was that I didnt understand in practice how it was different to current benefits, although I do appreciate, in theory, it could provide more of a safety blanket.
Why have such strong opinions about things you don’t fully understand ?
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
Why have such strong opinions about things you don’t fully understand ?
I don't have strong opinions about it. As you will see if you scroll up.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Probably needs to be more nuanced than that although it is a start. I can't see how it should be less than £13 in London when thinking about accommodation vs travel cost. As somebody who doesn't live in London but still pays ~£900 a month renting a 1bed (and that is complete bottom end where I live), I can't find a way to define a 'rest of uk' min wage.
I didn't read Demb's question properly and the 'in London' part. My view was based outside of London - well, Cardiff actually - and was some crude, quick and dirty mental arithmetic. I lived and worked in London in the 90's and wouldn't know where to start for a minimum wage these days. But you're right, it needs more analyses and research. The UK regions are so different.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
I'll introduce you to them sludge. A £1000 to the charity of your choice if I'm shown to be wrong. £1000 to my charity of choice if I'm right.
Just so you know, my charity is the Rescue Hotel who are building a new dogs home on Penarth Road. I'll let them know you'll be making the donation before the weekend. please have courage in your convictions as I'm sure you'll agree the cause is worthy
:thumbup:
I know someone who runs an international top 3 bank but I wouldn't introduce him to you
Tell me their names , I can speak to them myself and tell them you think they are second rate keynsians
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
I recall you calling George Osborne a centrist...
Osborne was a centrist, certainly his approach was not all tax cuts followed by cuts to spending. Under Osborne, the Tories embarked on a policy of increasing tax revenues as a proportion of national income way above what New Labour had done previously.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
Why have such strong opinions about things you don’t fully understand ?
this is not your first day on the internet is it?
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
Osborne was a centrist, certainly his approach was not all tax cuts followed by cuts to spending. Under Osborne, the Tories embarked on a policy of increasing tax revenues as a proportion of national income way above what New Labour had done previously.
Austerity
Huge cuts to spending
Nothing to do with Osborne
It must have been someone else
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
I know someone who runs an international top 3 bank but I wouldn't introduce him to you
Tell me their names , I can speak to them myself and tell them you think they are second rate keynsians
I don't think I said they're second rate. I said the IFS is full of economists who lean to the left. Conversely, I'd also say those at the top of the IFS tree lean to the right.
One of the economists is a local boy from Ponty, ex Cambridge and LSE. just saying
:thumbup:
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Austerity
Huge cuts to spending
Nothing to do with Osborne
It must have been someone else
Sludge,
as always with you it is black and white with nothing inbetween (a bit like your ears).
The deficit was £157bn in 2008 and back then the general perception was that it needed trimming. The way to do this was cuts to public spending. Now if Osborne embarked on a cuts only programme without raising taxes, there would be some merit in your argument. But Osborne opted to raise taxes and cut services to try and balance the books.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
this is not your first day on the internet is it?
I wish it was your last
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Feedback
Osborne was a centrist, certainly his approach was not all tax cuts followed by cuts to spending. Under Osborne, the Tories embarked on a policy of increasing tax revenues as a proportion of national income way above what New Labour had done previously.
He was considered too left within the Tory party, introduced triple pension lock some folk I know like that policy.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I'm sceptical, but also interested in it.
What I don't really understand is how or why it would be so transformative. If someone is currently unemployed or in low paid work and struggling with housing costs then they will receive benefits for "doing nothing". UBI essentially proposes the same doesn't it?
Is the main difference that they know they will keep the UBI even if they take on work? I can see how this provides some stability, but again isn't entirely different in practice to how benefits currently work.
I also struggle to see how other costs won't just realign themselves to the new income reality.
Yeah it's super interesting.
And the reality is that there needs to be social change as well... So people are unshackled by the capatalist systems of old which quite frankly have proven that the markets are not the Be all and End all ... And can cause huge disparity in wealth.
In the valleys there are three generations of people who gave been on benefits and the mentality becomes institutionalised. And sadly the Tories stripped away funding for surestart centres which were helping address that.
Of course the answer is not cutting benefits... I certainly wouldn't want someone working for me because they are forced to because their benefits have been cut ...
But the answer is of course a different structure of supporting people and also improving opportunities, self esteem etc
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
I remember my sister had a small business, she started out on her own then as she got busier she needed to take on help, I remember it being a while before she started making any real money as she saw the benefit of having help there.
If she had to pay £13 an hour to those staff it wouldn't be worth opening the doors.
I can imagine plenty of others are in a similar position.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Many Skilled Manual jobs dont even earn £13 a hour, Hairdressers, people employed in the building trades ( even getting close to carpenters ), its certainly above even Teacher assistants in Primary schools aswell
So I guess that'll mean they will get a increase in salary
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
Many Skilled Manual jobs dont even earn £13 a hour, Hairdressers, people employed in the building trades ( even getting close to carpenters ), its certainly above even Teacher assistants in Primary schools aswell
So I guess that'll mean they will get a increase in salary
Some companies don't pay safety critical staff that wage on the railways.
Literally have peoples lives in their hands.
But yeah let's pay everyone that.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
Some companies don't pay safety critical staff that wage on the railways.
Literally have peoples lives in their hands.
But yeah let's pay everyone that.
XXXX are underpaid therefore everybody beneath them should be underpaid accordingly on a sliding scale is a pretty depressing point of view
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
XXXX are underpaid therefore everybody beneath them should be underpaid accordingly on a sliding scale is a pretty depressing point of view
No need to blank it out. Who is this XXXX person you speak of?
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
No need to blank it out. Who is this XXXX person you speak of?
I was replying to dembe who was talking about safety critical staff on the railways, I'm stunned that that wasn't obvious
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
I was replying to dembe who was talking about safety critical staff on the railways, I'm stunned that that wasn't obvious
What is that whoosh sound?
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
What is that whoosh sound?
Oh.
Shit.
:hehe: :getscoat:
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
Many Skilled Manual jobs dont even earn £13 a hour, Hairdressers, people employed in the building trades ( even getting close to carpenters ), its certainly above even Teacher assistants in Primary schools aswell
So I guess that'll mean they will get a increase in salary
Any skilled labour in the building trade is on at least £20 per hour.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
I wish it was your last
:hehe:
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
Some companies don't pay safety critical staff that wage on the railways.
Literally have peoples lives in their hands.
But yeah let's pay everyone that.
some pilots are on £25k per annum, which is around £12.50 for a 40 hour week. There aren't many jobs which are as skilled as a pilot.
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Re: £9.50 Minimum Living Wage On The Way
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Any skilled labour in the building trade is on at least £20 per hour.
A old work mate of mine has just started doing housing association work ( fitting kitchens ) and he is on the books and is getting 15 quid a hour, suppling his own power tools aswell
