Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Hmmm, if I was living under a bridge with rats to keep me company, would I be thinking of the quality of French sport, the sophisticated bars and buildings, the beautiful country side and maybe, just maybe, a chateau if I work hard enough and the French property market levels out? Add to that, a biffing accent that makes the ladies quiver.
Or would I be thinking of getting to a country with a sizeable community from my culture, country or surrounding countries with the chance of a bed and the opportunity to earn a few quid on the black market. It's a difficult decision.

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"Or would I be thinking of getting to a country with a sizeable community from my culture"

Apologies if I have read this wrong, I have a habit of doing that on here, but isn't there a sizeable African and Muslim community on France?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Saying it doesn't, same as saying Jewish lives matter or all lives matter doesn't.

The organisation though, at the forefront of identity politics fundamentally is shifting how we view society, entrenching within us that our most important characteristics are those which we cannot control; sex, skin colour, nationality etc

By endlessly prefixing people with a skin colour you seperate us up. Sometimes that is relevent in understanding social issues, but usually it isn't.

There is very little progressive about it. It is the wrong diagnosis of the problem and when you get the diagnosis wrong, you get the medicine to fix it wrong. For example, there has been a massive increase in black people murdered in the last year as police have retreated more. This helps no one. It's far from all tied to th BLM movement but it's all connected. There is no focus on what actually kills most black people.

I don't advocate some of the extremists that latch on to 'all lives matter' anymore than the small minority of extremists those who latch onto 'black lives matter' (and someone who does and who posted about killing white people murdered six of them last week by driving his car into them).

It's just all very reactionary and the end result will drive us apart and amplify difference, where we stop seeing people and start seeing a colour.

There's loads of interesting articles on it.
https://unherd.com/2020/08/why-racia...e-reactionary/

https://youtu.be/HT0P3eeMO08

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Sorry, but I think that's a load of bunkum.

You have the opportunity to say three words. Black Lives Matter. That's all it is. I couldn't give a flying feck if such a phrase has been hijacked by some extremists. How can anyone say 'All Lives Matter' but can't say 'Black Lives Matter'?

In the UK we live in a predominantly white, Christian/non-believing society where men get on better than women, where most people are heterosexual. We have lived in a society where hatred towards those who don't fit that description has been normalised in generations gone by.

I have friends and family who are homosexual. The fight of the homosexual community to have equality continues. I will happily support Gay pride. I get pissed off when w@nkers ask why gay people need gay pride, when there is no equivalent for straight people. It misses the point completely.

I have black friends. Racism is still a massive problem in this country whether we admit it or not. I don't know what it is like to suffer racism. Most black people here do. That is unacceptable. That is why Black Lives Matter to me. Solidarity with fellow human beings and standing up to say racism is unacceptable. I'm proud to say it.

For all of your "I can see both sides of the story" and "I read both sides of the argument", if your dislike for saying 'Black Lives Matters' is because of a few extremists, then you're a cockwomble.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Sorry, but I think that's a load of bunkum.

You have the opportunity to say three words. Black Lives Matter. That's all it is. I couldn't give a flying feck if such a phrase has been hijacked by some extremists. How can anyone say 'All Lives Matter' but can't say 'Black Lives Matter'?

In the UK we live in a predominantly white, Christian/non-believing society where men get on better than women, where most people are heterosexual. We have lived in a society where hatred towards those who don't fit that description has been normalised in generations gone by.

I have friends and family who are homosexual. The fight of the homosexual community to have equality continues. I will happily support Gay pride. I get pissed off when w@nkers ask why gay people need gay pride, when there is no equivalent for straight people. It misses the point completely.

I have black friends. Racism is still a massive problem in this country whether we admit it or not. I don't know what it is like to suffer racism. Most black people here do. That is unacceptable. That is why Black Lives Matter to me. Solidarity with fellow human beings and standing up to say racism is unacceptable. I'm proud to say it.

For all of your "I can see both sides of the story" and "I read both sides of the argument", if your dislike for saying 'Black Lives Matters' is because of a few extremists, then you're a cockwomble.

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I don't dispute what you say and like you I have a pretty diverse range of friends. I just don't think it will work. Ultimately it will drum racialised thinking into people and not solve the issues at hand. I don't think there's much evidence it's helping at all. Fundamentally I think when you endlessly emphasise the difference then you bake that difference into thinking and policies. Do we really view the United States as an example we want to follow on race politics? Really?

Also, nearly every social metric is worse for men than women btw. But the point is we all can suffer. Some more than others of course and it's important to focus on that, I just don't think the BLM movement is the right movement to do that

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I don't dispute what you say and like you I have a pretty diverse range of friends. I just don't think it will work. Ultimately it will drum racialised thinking into people and not solve the issues at hand. I don't think there's much evidence it's helping at all. Fundamentally I think when you endlessly emphasise the difference then you bake that difference into thinking and policies. Do we really view the United States as an example we want to follow on race politics? Really?

Also, nearly every social metric is worse for men than women btw. But the point is we all can suffer. Some more than others of course and it's important to focus on that, I just don't think the BLM movement is the right movement to do that

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What fecking movement? It's three words.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Sorry, but I think that's a load of bunkum.

You have the opportunity to say three words. Black Lives Matter. That's all it is. I couldn't give a flying feck if such a phrase has been hijacked by some extremists. How can anyone say 'All Lives Matter' but can't say 'Black Lives Matter'?

In the UK we live in a predominantly white, Christian/non-believing society where men get on better than women, where most people are heterosexual. We have lived in a society where hatred towards those who don't fit that description has been normalised in generations gone by.

I have friends and family who are homosexual. The fight of the homosexual community to have equality continues. I will happily support Gay pride. I get pissed off when w@nkers ask why gay people need gay pride, when there is no equivalent for straight people. It misses the point completely.

I have black friends. Racism is still a massive problem in this country whether we admit it or not. I don't know what it is like to suffer racism. Most black people here do. That is unacceptable. That is why Black Lives Matter to me. Solidarity with fellow human beings and standing up to say racism is unacceptable. I'm proud to say it.

For all of your "I can see both sides of the story" and "I read both sides of the argument", if your dislike for saying 'Black Lives Matters' is because of a few extremists, then you're a cockwomble.

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Not worth it mate, this has been going on for years and if people still haven’t grasped the basic fact and would rather pontificate about alt right buzz words than just say that racism is bad then they never will.

In a lot of the world (especially America) it is obvious currently a black life is worth less than a non black one. All black people want is to be treated equally. And certain people would rather stir just say oh but what about non black people, like they really give a shit.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

What fecking movement? It's three words.

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In which case, so to is all lives matter just a mere three words.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

In which case, so to is all lives matter just a mere three words.

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Indeed. Which fails to recognise the troubles black people go through and makes sure white people are included in such a slogan. Misses the point completely.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Indeed. Which fails to recognise the troubles black people go through and makes sure white people are included in such a slogan. Misses the point completely.

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I disagree, but that's fine. To clarify though, the words in lower case are uncontroversial and obvious. The organisation however isn't and shouldn't be beyond criticism

As to whether all of these creates a more racially harmonious society I am extremely doubtful.

What we do know is that surveys on race relations amongst white and black people have nose dived since 2015. At some point you have to ask if the current rhetoric is helping the situation.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1687/race-relations.aspx

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Not worth it mate, this has been going on for years and if people still haven’t grasped the basic fact and would rather pontificate about alt right buzz words than just say that racism is bad then they never will.

In a lot of the world (especially America) it is obvious currently a black life is worth less than a non black one. All black people want is to be treated equally. And certain people would rather stir just say oh but what about non black people, like they really give a shit.

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I think at some point 'saying racism is bad' isn't going to be enough to achieve anything.

I think people are probably discriminated against as much because of wealth/income/social status as they are their race in this country. Do you think you would face more barriers to your own personal success as a wealthy black person or a poor white person? The fact that I have asked that question probably demonstrates what my answer is.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that my main concern would be structural racism that impacts upon life chances but my gut feeling tells me this is as much to do with the black community being poorer and from poorer areas on average than *actual* racism and I think the outcomes with poor white communities are shit as well. That isn't to say that their aren't organisations that appear to have internal issues with race (I am thinking the met police as a frequent example), but for me the key driver here is probably going to be income inequality.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I disagree, but that's fine. To clarify though, the words in lower case are uncontroversial and obvious. The organisation however isn't and shouldn't be beyond criticism

As to whether all of these creates a more racially harmonious society I am extremely doubtful.

What we do know is that surveys on race relations amongst white and black people have nose dived since 2015. At some point you have to ask if the current rhetoric is helping the situation.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1687/race-relations.aspx

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So more recognition that race relations need improving has led to it getting worse. Racists coming out.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

So more recognition that race relations need improving has led to it getting worse. Racists coming out.

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Or..since the rise of identity politics race relations have declined and maybe a new approach is needed?

It's a valid discussion to have and an important topic to discuss

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I think at some point 'saying racism is bad' isn't going to be enough to achieve anything.

I think people are probably discriminated against as much because of wealth/income/social status as they are their race in this country. Do you think you would face more barriers to your own personal success as a wealthy black person or a poor white person? The fact that I have asked that question probably demonstrates what my answer is.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that my main concern would be structural racism that impacts upon life chances but my gut feeling tells me this is as much to do with the black community being poorer and from poorer areas on average than *actual* racism and I think the outcomes with poor white communities are shit as well. That isn't to say that their aren't organisations that appear to have internal issues with race (I am thinking the met police as a frequent example), but for me the key driver here is probably going to be income inequality.

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I’d say both are factors. I listened to a podcast that has a few black American athletes on it and their kids still suffer from racism. Even buying million dollar mansions they were treated differently.

That’s not to say income inequality is not a massive issue but if you had white and black person with the exact same inequality who would have it harder?

People saying all lives matter don’t give a shit about the poor either though .

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

My point was that the debate has become so utterly preposterous that someone felt, admittedly in jest perhaps, that saying 'all lives matter' is comparable to trying to prevent the RNLI from saving drowning people.

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If this is referring to me no that wasn't what I was saying. What I meant was that I'd bet that I bet that when the BLM protests were in the news the people protesting the lifeboats would have been banging on about All Lives Matter.

Here's a Venn Diagram to explain what I'm getting at:

Attachment 4688

If someone can’t comprehend why the origin of all lives matter is disingenuous and why using it purposefully undermines an anti racism message. I doubt that venn diagram will explain anything to them.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I’d say both are factors. I listened to a podcast that has a few black American athletes on it and their kids still suffer from racism. Even buying million dollar mansions they were treated differently.

That’s not to say income inequality is not a massive issue but if you had white and black person with the exact same inequality who would have it harder?

People saying all lives matter don’t give a shit about the poor either though .

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"People who say all lives matter don't give a shit about the poor either".

Jesus. You just make this bigoted stuff up.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

If someone can’t comprehend why the origin of all lives matter is disingenuous and why using it purposefully undermines an anti racism message. I doubt that venn diagram will explain anything to them.

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The made up Venn diagram that comes with no evidence as to its accuracy you mean?

It's like me making up a league table that has Cardiff City on top of the Premier League and claiming that it thus proves my point that Cardiff City are the greatest team in football the world has ever seen. 😂

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The made up Venn diagram that comes with no evidence as to its accuracy you mean?

It's like me making up a league table that has Cardiff City on top of the Premier League and claiming that it thus proves my point that Cardiff City are the greatest team in football the world has ever seen. 😂

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Told you he wouldn’t get it

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Told you he wouldn’t get it

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No, I get it. It's just stupid.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

It may be. For some people. But the point is you can stand by all lives matter as s solid progressive principle and it doesn't mean you advocate stopping the RNLI saving lives.

The world is nuanced

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Interesting that you talk about nuance, but can't see the very thin double meaning of All Lives Matter.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Or..since the rise of identity politics race relations have declined and maybe a new approach is needed?

It's a valid discussion to have and an important topic to discuss

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You're either a racist or not.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Interesting that you talk about nuance, but can't see the very thin double meaning of All Lives Matter.

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Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The made up Venn diagram that comes with no evidence as to its accuracy you mean?

It's like me making up a league table that has Cardiff City on top of the Premier League and claiming that it thus proves my point that Cardiff City are the greatest team in football the world has ever seen. ��

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Well it's not really though is it WalesBales. I gave what was quite clearly an opinion about the protesters and a diagram to show what I was getting at. This other little "THAT'S NOT A FACTUAL DIAGRAM YOU KNOW" tantrum is something you've decided on for your own reasons

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I’d say both are factors. I listened to a podcast that has a few black American athletes on it and their kids still suffer from racism. Even buying million dollar mansions they were treated differently.

That’s not to say income inequality is not a massive issue but if you had white and black person with the exact same inequality who would have it harder?

People saying all lives matter don’t give a shit about the poor either though .

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Yeah I suppose for me there are three separate issues here, 1. Violence 2. Structural racism preventing an even playing field and then 3. Everything else. In that order. Now that isn't to say that these aren't quite heavily dependent on one another but in terms of caring about peoples experiences, those are the things that would matter most to me.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

If someone can’t comprehend why the origin of all lives matter is disingenuous and why using it purposefully undermines an anti racism message. I doubt that venn diagram will explain anything to them.

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But this is the entire problem, the debate has become centred around token statements. 'All Lives Matter' as a message would have been fantastic before 'Black Lives Matter' emerged, then it became a subtle way to oppose what BLM stood for. So a year + on the world is still debating which slogans are okay, meanwhile it doesn't feel as though any actual progress has been made.

This is the point I have tried and failed to make in the other BLM threads is that the slogan quickly became a screen that companies, sports clubs, politicians and people in general used to gain approval in public whilst in some instances actually being racist, having racist policies and presiding racist internal structures at the very same time. They don't get called out because as a society we only look at the surface and they are kneeling or showing the banner on their website.

I think if you could only think like your average Gammon, who's not really the sharpest knife in the drawer, you would come to realise that the last vestige of his dignity lies in believing he's not the lowest of the low. It's a massive comfort to our friend to firmly believe the black man is bolstering his crumbling status in the world. As long as he believes he's better than a black man then our poor Gammon can sleep at night.

If anything happens which will begin to undermine his secure belief then our Gammon's life becomes problematic.Then there's the fear for his job because he knows he's two a penny and highly expendable. Oh and there's also the ever present insecurity of the perceived genital imbalance he has to contend with as he carefully guards his womenfolk from the charms of the savages. Poor fellow, why should black lives ever matter to him?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I think if you could only think like your average Gammon, who's not really the sharpest knife in the drawer, you would come to realise that the last vestige of his dignity lies in believing he's not the lowest of the low. It's a massive comfort to our friend to firmly believe the black man is bolstering his crumbling status in the world. As long as he believes he's better than a black man then our poor Gammon can sleep at night.

If anything happens which will begin to undermine his secure belief then our Gammon's life becomes problematic.Then there's the fear for his job because he knows he's two a penny and highly expendable. Oh and there's also the ever present insecurity of the perceived genital imbalance he has to contend with as he carefully guards his womenfolk from the charms of the savages. Poor fellow, why should black lives ever matter to him?

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You said Gammon. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Brilliant stuff

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

You said Gammon. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Brilliant stuff

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Thanks I just knew you'd be the one to appreciate it 😂

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

But this is the entire problem, the debate has become centred around token statements. 'All Lives Matter' as a message would have been fantastic before 'Black Lives Matter' emerged, then it became a subtle way to oppose what BLM stood for. So a year + on the world is still debating which slogans are okay, meanwhile it doesn't feel as though any actual progress has been made.

This is the point I have tried and failed to make in the other BLM threads is that the slogan quickly became a screen that companies, sports clubs, politicians and people in general used to gain approval in public whilst in some instances actually being racist, having racist policies and presiding racist internal structures at the very same time. They don't get called out because as a society we only look at the surface and they are kneeling or showing the banner on their website.

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I don't think people really oppose what they stand for per se. Not at a grand level anyway. It's the tactics and rhetoric. Some no doubt oppose both. But to object to BLM is not to support racism. Indeed it's the attachment of such absurd arguments, completely devoid of nuance that make people oppose what many view as radical groups.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Thanks I just knew you'd be the one to appreciate it 😂

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It's brilliant!

I think I said before you should try and get a job at the Socialist Worker. Maybe The Canary is worth a shout too?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

It's brilliant!

I think I said before you should try and get a job at the Socialist Worker. Maybe The Canary is worth a shout too?

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Huh? What's this got to do with racism? Strange fellow!!!

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

In which case, so to is all lives matter just a mere three words.

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What historical oppression have white European origin people had to endure on a level with African Americans through the slave trade and to modern day ?

I think it's fair to say , in fact I will state it here that the people who pontificate about BLM being communists , about hey .....all lives matter ......about immigrants , refugees, asylum seekers , gay pride events ......are small minded racist bigots

It's just a theory but I think it's very good one

The people I know who go on about all this also throw around the term snowflake etc

I know what they are and they absolutely cry out loud when you pull up their prejudices on so many things but it's the truth and they don't like it .

Everyone has prejudices to a degree but this lot are terrible .

If its not black people it's asylum seekers , the bloody EU , trade unions , gay pride marches , disability rights advice workers at the council we don't bloody need them ! etc etc

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I think it's fair to say , in fact I will state it here that the people who pontificate about BLM being communists , about hey .....all lives matter ......about immigrants , refugees, asylum seekers , gay pride events ......are small minded racist bigots

It's just a theory but I think it's very good one

The people I know who go on about all this also throw around the term snowflake etc

I know what they are and they absolutely cry out loud when you pull up their prejudices on so many things but it's the truth and they don't like it .

Everyone has prejudices to a degree but this lot are terrible .

If its not black people it's asylum seekers , the bloody EU , trade unions , gay pride marches , disability rights advice workers at the council we don't bloody need them ! etc etc

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What you have actually said here is the near definition of bigotry; clumping together and making gross stereotypes about pretty much anyone who has an alternative opinion to you on totally disconnected issues.

In the absence of making a valid argument it's just a series of insults as usual.

Oh and you advocated putting Corbyn in power so dont get too high and mighty about racism

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

What historical oppression have white European origin people had to endure on a level with African Americans through the slave trade and to modern day ?

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It's not a competition but the trans atlantic slave trade ended more than 200 years ago. It was, one of the greatest crimes and injustices in world history. A grotesque event the enriched people on three continents on the back of pure misery.

More recently millions of Europeans were murdered in the Holocaust of course and further millions of Europeans killed, primarily under Stalin in the USSR

History is complex and I'm not entire sure you bringing that up is helpful in understanding whether the wider BLM movement is the best approach to improving race relations and inequalities etc tbh.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

What you have actually said here is the near definition of bigotry; clumping together and making gross stereotypes about pretty much anyone who has an alternative opinion to you on totally disconnected issues.

In the absence of making a valid argument it's just a series of insults as usual.

Oh and you advocated putting Corbyn in power so dont get too high and mighty about racism

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Corbyn who has been a prominent anti-racism campaigner for decades or Boris Johnson? Yes that Boris Johnson of "picaninnies" fame? of "Watermelon Smiles" of "letterboxes", of using Nigerian as a derogatory term? Of saying that Barrack Obama has a hatred of Britain because of his Kenyan heritage, saying Africa's problems are that the colonial powers aren't in charge any more? If you were deciding the last election on who had better anti-racist credentials then there would really have only been one choice - unless you have completely deluded yourself, in which case you should be asking yourself why that is?

White lives have always ‘mattered’. Black lives haven’t. When we say Black Lives Matter it’s not to divide, but to include. Of course all lives matter, but historically they haven’t so we say BLACK LIVES MATTER to raise this point. Perhaps the word ‘too’ should have been added to the slogan so that everyone could understand what it means and not just those who recognise nuance.

James; a white fella being sensitive over inclusivity is the most cringe sh1t I’ve ever heard.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

Corbyn who has been a prominent anti-racism campaigner for decades or Boris Johnson? Yes that Boris Johnson of "picaninnies" fame? of "Watermelon Smiles" of "letterboxes", of using Nigerian as a derogatory term? Of saying that Barrack Obama has a hatred of Britain because of his Kenyan heritage, saying Africa's problems are that the colonial powers aren't in charge any more? If you were deciding the last election on who had better anti-racist credentials then there would really have only been one choice - unless you have completely deluded yourself, in which case you should be asking yourself why that is?

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My point is, people who gloss over this should be a bit more aware when accusing others of things.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/more-t...mitic-1.469654

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Originally Posted by 198bore

White lives have always ‘mattered’. Black lives haven’t. When we say Black Lives Matter it’s not to divide, but to include. Of course all lives matter, but historically they haven’t so we say BLACK LIVES MATTER to raise this point. Perhaps the word ‘too’ should have been added to the slogan so that everyone could understand what it means and not just those who recognise nuance.

James; a white fella being sensitive over inclusivity is the most cringe sh1t I’ve ever heard.

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All you've done there is recreate a press release or something from their website that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny or address the issues being discussed.

I'm not sensitive over inclusivity, that is exactly what I support and exactly what I do not think is happening with a lot of the current thinking on these issues.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

My point is, people who gloss over this should be a bit more aware when accusing others of things.

https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/more-t...mitic-1.469654

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so who do you think has the better anti racist credentials out of Corbyn and Johnson?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

All you've done there is recreate a press release or something from their website that doesn't really stand up to scrutiny or address the issues being discussed.

I'm not sensitive over inclusivity, that is exactly what I support and exactly what I do not think is happening with a lot of the current thinking on these issues.

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I actually came up with this all by myself.
One day you'll get it. It just takes a bit longer for some people.