FT: WIGAN ATHLETIC 0 - 2 CARDIFF CITY. Match thread

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Originally Posted by PaulWent76

We agree. They're opinions not facts. I'm quite happy to read other people's opinions and accept them as such. What I was interested in was if anyone had facts to back up their opinions which often, in my opinion, take the gloss off a City performance or achievement by stating that the opposition side or league contributed by being 'poor'. Often, in my opinion, these people have trouble enjoying our success which is something I find strange.

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With all due respect, I think you’re being way too precious. After all, the two things are not mutually exclusive - City can play well and win well against poor opposition, and they’ve already done so on a number of occasions this season. A good example was the Rotherham game back in August. The Bluebirds played well and cruised to a 3-0 victory. The Millers were utterly abysmal and offered virtually nothing from the first whistle to the last. It was an easy victory over really poor opposition.

At the end of last season, lots of fans were full of doom and gloom about our prospects for 2025/26. They apparently believed League One was a tough division and City would be likely to struggle in it. Some even went as far as predicting we’d be marooned in the lower divisions for years to come.

I wasn't one of those people. On the contrary, as I said on here on several occasions, I believed the chances were that League One would be a significant drop in standard. I could see no reason why City wouldn’t either bounce back to the Championship at the first time of asking or at least within a couple of years provided the club appointed the right sort of manager and made some sensible signings.

Having said that, I must admit I’ve been surprised by just how poor the standard of football in this division is this season, or at least how poor it’s appeared to be in the games I’ve seen so far. I fully expected City to be challenging towards the top of the table, but I wasn’t aware of just how limited a lot of our opponents would be.

I can’t comment on yesterday’s victory as I haven’t even seen the highlights yet. Plenty of people who did watch it seem to be suggesting that City played well, but our players didn’t really need to extend themselves against poor opponents who offered very little. That makes perfect sense to me, as that has been the case in a number of other games this season.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

I think all 3 points you make it’s actually a blessing to be able to implement them in
league 1 rather than another season in the championship where the aim it is to just survive and on the back of several very negative seasons.

Theres clearly a difference in level, not as huge as some make out, but certainly enough of a difference to make it easier for BBM to implement his style and mold the team.

Its worth pointing out that in the last two years Ipswich and Sunderland have gone straight through and got back to back promotions. Not suggesting for one second we will do the same, we havent got out of league 1 yet, but maybe for the top teams in league 1 it shows the gap isn’t that huge.

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I think there's a lot to be said for the way going down to League One gives teams a chance to reboot. It seems to me that the drop in quality provides a great opportunity for teams with a bit of talent to be able to keep possession and play football. I think this in turn builds confidence, trust and actually helps players improve. We've seen this in the past with teams like Wigan, Reading, Swansea, Bournemouth, Brentford and Brighton just to name a few. Pundits are already talking about BBM and our squad of talented youngsters. We're going to find it a lot easier to get quality loans if this continues, as well as attract better academy and senior players. We live in hope. At last. Still need to get rid of that worm though. (And badges with white birds - seriously how hard is it to remind the kit manufacturer that the bird should be blue?)

Precious and strange. My middle names. Probably fair enough.
I believe that's the most positive post you've put up in the last few years.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

With all due respect, I think you’re being way too precious. After all, the two things are not mutually exclusive - City can play well and win well against poor opposition, and they’ve already done so on a number of occasions this season. A good example was the Rotherham game back in August. The Bluebirds played well and cruised to a 3-0 victory. The Millers were utterly abysmal and offered virtually nothing from the first whistle to the last. It was an easy victory over really poor opposition.

At the end of last season, lots of fans were full of doom and gloom about our prospects for 2025/26. They apparently believed League One was a tough division and City would be likely to struggle in it. Some even went as far as predicting we’d be marooned in the lower divisions for years to come.

I wasn't one of those people. On the contrary, as I said on here on several occasions, I believed the chances were that League One would be a significant drop in standard. I could see no reason why City wouldn’t either bounce back to the Championship at the first time of asking or at least within a couple of years provided the club appointed the right sort of manager and made some sensible signings.

Having said that, I must admit I’ve been surprised by just how poor the standard of football in this division is this season, or at least how poor it’s appeared to be in the games I’ve seen so far. I fully expected City to be challenging towards the top of the table, but I wasn’t aware of just how limited a lot of our opponents would be.

I can’t comment on yesterday’s victory as I haven’t even seen the highlights yet. Plenty of people who did watch it seem to be suggesting that City played well, but our players didn’t really need to extend themselves against poor opponents who offered very little. That makes perfect sense to me, as that has been the case in a number of other games this season.

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"With all due respect" 😁? Precious and strange strange are my middle names. Probably fair enough.
I think that's the most positive post you've put up in the last five years. I look forward to reading further opinions.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

At the end of last season, lots of fans were full of doom and gloom about our prospects for 2025/26. They apparently believed League One was a tough division and City would be likely to struggle in it. Some even went as far as predicting we’d be marooned in the lower divisions for years to come.

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Guilty as charged.

I formed my opinion on the way the club has been run, the quality of managers appointed, and the apparent lack of character from the players in the closing months of last season.

The turnaround has been dramatic on the last two points.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

They aren’t facts, they’re opinions. You seem to get upset or irritated by the opinions of others regarding the quality (or lack of) in League One, but you don’t seem to have any opinions yourself. Strange.

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He’s got a point though, when has anyone ever said on here about a season when we’ve been in the EFL “were in a really good division this year”?

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Based on what you’ve seen so far, how do you rate the quality of the football in League One and the strength of the division overall?

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IMO League 1 is not as strong as the Championship but stronger than League 2 ( can't put my finger on why ). I see no evidence that League 1 this year is weaker than League 1 last year.

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Originally Posted by Garth Blue

IMO League 1 is not as strong as the Championship but stronger than League 2 ( can't put my finger on why ). I see no evidence that League 1 this year is weaker than League 1 last year.

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Neither do I. But then, other than a couple of play-off games (which were grim), I didn’t watch any League One football last season, so I’ve got no real point of reference. How about you? How much much League One football did you watch last season?

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Neither do I. But then, other than a couple of play-off games (which were grim), I didn’t watch any League One football last season, so I’ve got no real point of reference. How about you? How much much League One football did you watch last season?

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I watched very little L1, apart from a few Wrexham games and the play-offs. Which is why I see no evidence that League 1 is weaker (or stronger) than any other year. I doubt whether there have been many teams in L1 who play the way we do.

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Originally Posted by Garth Blue

I watched very little L1, apart from a few Wrexham games and the play-offs. Which is why I see no evidence that League 1 is weaker (or stronger) than any other year. I doubt whether there have been many teams in L1 who play the way we do.

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Thing is, nobody mentioned League One being weaker than any other year.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Thing is, nobody mentioned League One being weaker than any other year.

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yet

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Thing is, nobody mentioned League One being weaker than any other year.

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Just answering your question butty.

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Originally Posted by Garth Blue

Just answering your question butty.

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Not really, bach. It was you who introduced the notion of a comparison with previous seasons, not me. I’ve got no idea what League One has been like in recent times. Like most City fans, I’ve been watching either Championship or Premier League football for the previous 22 seasons. I haven’t been paying any attention to League One games.

Now that I am watching games at this level, I’m surprised by how poor most of the sides appear to be. And judging by the comments on this message board and in the pub after games, I’m certainly not alone.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Not really, bach. It was you who introduced the notion of a comparison with previous seasons, not me. I’ve got no idea what League One has been like in recent times. Like most City fans, I’ve been watching either Championship or Premier League football for the previous 22 seasons. I haven’t been paying any attention to League One games.

Now that I am watching games at this level, I’m surprised by how poor most of the sides appear to be. And judging by the comments on this message board and in the pub after games, I’m certainly not alone.

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I answered your question but not in the way you liked. No surprises there.

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Originally Posted by Garth Blue

I answered your question but not in the way you liked. No surprises there.

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You did, but it wasn’t a genuine answer. Just a smug, dismissive one, which is par for the course. But never mind, not important. To me, anyway.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

You did, but it wasn’t a genuine answer. Just a smug, dismissive one, which is par for the course. But never mind, not important. To me, anyway.

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A smug person is someone who is overly pleased with themselves, often in a way that is annoying or condescending to others, showing a strong sense of self-satisfaction about their own cleverness, achievements, or position. This self-satisfaction implies a high opinion of themselves, making them seem arrogant, superior, and often lacking in humility. You do see the irony in your use of this word, don't you? But then, maybe not.

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Originally Posted by Garth Blue

A smug person is someone who is overly pleased with themselves, often in a way that is annoying or condescending to others, showing a strong sense of self-satisfaction about their own cleverness, achievements, or position. This self-satisfaction implies a high opinion of themselves, making them seem arrogant, superior, and often lacking in humility. You do see the irony in your use of this word, don't you? But then, maybe not.

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I

Very clever Garth.
I think Dave knows he can be quite smug sometimes.
Try not to take him too seriously.
He's one of the best WUMs on here...the amount of posters that bite is astonishing.

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Originally Posted by kendoddsdadsdogsdead

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Very clever Garth.
I think Dave knows he can be quite smug sometimes.
Try not to take him too seriously.
He's one of the best WUMs on here...the amount of posters that bite is astonishing.

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Thanks Ken. On this occasion, I think Spiderman bit.

It is quite noticeable how we have had a good start but it is still very tight at the top. It seems like a lot of teams towards the top end of the table are seeing off teams towards the bottom with ease.

There is a real gap in quality from top to bottom it seems so we are going to have to keep winning thatÂ’s for sure

Apologies if I sound like I'm nit picking but Peterborough drew with Bradford City, Blackpool beat both Huddersfield and Barnsley. Burton drew with Huddersfield and Mansfield. We thrashed Plymouth when they were bottom 4 who are now on a strong run up the table. At the end of the season there will be a 40ish to 60ish point gap between top and bottom.
I seem to remember someone suggesting that if it's a small gap then that's a poor league and if it's a big gap it's a strong one. My opinion would be that's statistical bollox. If City finish top then IMHO that's a great league and if we finish bottom, not so.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

He’s got a point though, when has anyone ever said on here about a season when we’ve been in the EFL “were in a really good division this year”?

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Talking to myself again I see.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Talking to myself again I see.

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You’ve posed a question that can’t be answered unless someone is prepared to trawl through thousands of posts from years gone by. I’m not prepared to do that and I doubt you are. But what I will say is that any time anybody dares to suggest that an EFL division is weak, others will offer counter arguments (of sorts), as has happened in this very thread.

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Originally Posted by TheBirchgrovePub

It is quite noticeable how we have had a good start but it is still very tight at the top. It seems like a lot of teams towards the top end of the table are seeing off teams towards the bottom with ease.

There is a real gap in quality from top to bottom it seems so we are going to have to keep winning thatÂ’s for sure

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Yes, it does seem different in that respect. The top half seems a lot better than the bottom half and even winning most weeks we aren't pulling clear at all, we have to keep winning, lots of draws won't cut it.

Not true in my case. I didn't dare offer a counter argument to the assertion a league is weak, I merely posed the question how do we know if it's weak or not. In fact I'd still be grateful if someone could help with evidence as to how judge that.
TOBW has pointed out (I think) that probably seldom or never has anyone suggested that the City have been in a really strong league. There are at least 2 of us who think that's the case, without trawling through the board's history.

What I’ve noticed is how much quicker we’re passing the ball compared to last year. The passes are earlier and hit with some purpose.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

You’ve posed a question that can’t be answered unless someone is prepared to trawl through thousands of posts from years gone by. I’m not prepared to do that and I doubt you are. But what I will say is that any time anybody dares to suggest that an EFL division is weak, others will offer counter arguments (of sorts), as has happened in this very thread.

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It's the same as every other year; the standard of all leagues improves just ever so slightly as players get slightly more professional and athletic. Of course, as it's a lower league than we are used to, it's a lower standard of team and player.

Our players are Championship standard, so are finding it reasonably easy most of the time, they are only there because of Riza and the board for appointing and keeping him.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

With all due respect, I think you’re being way too precious. After all, the two things are not mutually exclusive - City can play well and win well against poor opposition, and they’ve already done so on a number of occasions this season. A good example was the Rotherham game back in August. The Bluebirds played well and cruised to a 3-0 victory. The Millers were utterly abysmal and offered virtually nothing from the first whistle to the last. It was an easy victory over really poor opposition.

At the end of last season, lots of fans were full of doom and gloom about our prospects for 2025/26. They apparently believed League One was a tough division and City would be likely to struggle in it. Some even went as far as predicting we’d be marooned in the lower divisions for years to come.

I wasn't one of those people. On the contrary, as I said on here on several occasions, I believed the chances were that League One would be a significant drop in standard. I could see no reason why City wouldn’t either bounce back to the Championship at the first time of asking or at least within a couple of years provided the club appointed the right sort of manager and made some sensible signings.

Having said that, I must admit I’ve been surprised by just how poor the standard of football in this division is this season, or at least how poor it’s appeared to be in the games I’ve seen so far. I fully expected City to be challenging towards the top of the table, but I wasn’t aware of just how limited a lot of our opponents would be.

I can’t comment on yesterday’s victory as I haven’t even seen the highlights yet. Plenty of people who did watch it seem to be suggesting that City played well, but our players didn’t really need to extend themselves against poor opponents who offered very little. That makes perfect sense to me, as that has been the case in a number of other games this season.

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If Riza had stayed, we'd have struggled; it's down to a decent Manager getting the best from pretty good players when coached correctly. Trott was also a key signing, allowing us to play it out from the back with so much more confidence, having an extra outfield player in goal.

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Originally Posted by PaulWent76

Not true in my case. I didn't dare offer a counter argument to the assertion a league is weak, I merely posed the question how do we know if it's weak or not. In fact I'd still be grateful if someone could help with evidence as to how judge that.

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You judge it by the evidence you see with your own eyes (or at least I do). It's no more complicated than that really.

So far this season, the quality of the actual football in most of the League One games I've watched has been poor. The defending is generally erratic, the majority of teams seem to surrender possession very easily, a lot of the finishing is weak and a number of teams have seemed to offer very little in the final third. Also, most of the teams appear far less physical and direct than I'd expected. No doubt I'm biased to a degree as I've been watching Championship or Premier League football for so long, but while I expected a significant drop in the overall standard of play, I've been surprised by just how weak a lot of the team seem to be.

Are you sure you're not confusing the notion of a weak league with a competitive one?

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Originally Posted by North Cardiff Blue

Yes, it does seem different in that respect. The top half seems a lot better than the bottom half and even winning most weeks we aren't pulling clear at all, we have to keep winning, lots of draws won't cut it.

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I was surprised after winning on the weekend to find we were still fourth

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

You judge it by the evidence you see with your own eyes (or at least I do). It's no more complicated than that really.

So far this season, the quality of the actual football in most of the League One games I've watched has been poor. The defending is generally erratic, the majority of teams seem to surrender possession very easily, a lot of the finishing is weak and a number of teams have seemed to offer very little in the final third. Also, most of the teams appear far less physical and direct than I'd expected. No doubt I'm biased to a degree as I've been watching Championship or Premier League football for so long, but while I expected a significant drop in the overall standard of play, I've been surprised by just how weak a lot of the team seem to be.

Are you sure you're not confusing the notion of a weak league with a competitive one?

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Like you did last season? Surely a competitive league is where the difference between top and bottom is less. Anybody can beat anybody. Several posters in this thread have suggested a marked difference in quality between to and bottom.

Last season, we were the most shit team in a set of about 10 really shit teams.

Yet, if you expressed that opinion you were accused: of not being a true supporter; of being unkind to the players/manager(s); of wanting Cardiff City to fail.

This season, we are doing really well, in a bunch of about half a dozen teams who are doing well. The other teams in L1 have been poor in many respects.

Yet, if you expressed that opinion you are accused: of not being a true supporter; of being unkind to the players/manager(s); of wanting Cardiff City to fail.

It seems no-one is allowed to have an opinion other than: Cardiff City is the greatest team the world has ever seen, and playing in a really tough division.

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Originally Posted by Garth Blue

Like you did last season? Surely a competitive league is where the difference between top and bottom is less. Anybody can beat anybody. Several posters in this thread have suggested a marked difference in quality between to and bottom.

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He's back...

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about last season. Indeed, I'm not sure what you're trying to say with any of this post. It makes no sense to me.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

You judge it by the evidence you see with your own eyes (or at least I do). It's no more complicated than that really.

So far this season, the quality of the actual football in most of the League One games I've watched has been poor. The defending is generally erratic, the majority of teams seem to surrender possession very easily, a lot of the finishing is weak and a number of teams have seemed to offer very little in the final third. Also, most of the teams appear far less physical and direct than I'd expected. No doubt I'm biased to a degree as I've been watching Championship or Premier League football for so long, but while I expected a significant drop in the overall standard of play, I've been surprised by just how weak a lot of the team seem to be.

Are you sure you're not confusing the notion of a weak league with a competitive one?

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Thanks for taking the trouble to reply.

From my POV my question about evidential poor Vs strong leagues has been answered and I won't feel the need to question anyone about it in future. Having said that you've now raised an interesting point about weak/strong vs competitive but I'm going to leave that well alone.

Enjoy your football.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

YouÂ’ve posed a question that canÂ’t be answered unless someone is prepared to trawl through thousands of posts from years gone by. IÂ’m not prepared to do that and I doubt you are. But what I will say is that any time anybody dares to suggest that an EFL division is weak, others will offer counter arguments (of sorts), as has happened in this very thread.

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Well, I've been posting on here for over a quarter of a century now and if we leave aside the two Premier League seasons, I can't recall anyone ever saying what a great quality league we're in this season. My memory has never been infallible though and so, you never know, maybe someone has said that or similar. In fact, it may have been said on more than one occasion, but I'd be astonished is it has been said on more than five occasions. On the other hand, I'd say I've been posting on here for twenty five seasons where we've been in the EFL and, by a very., very conservative estimate, I'd say that twenty of those have seen a poster on here saying the standard of the league this year is crap.

I could write an awful lot on this because, using the Championship as an example, you've got a league that very rarely does thrashings, I don't find the football hugely entertaining, yet, week in, week our, games are very competitive with little in games in terms of both the scoreline and difference between the teams. It has a reputation for dramatic finishes and the comment that anyone can beat anyone in the league seems more approriate in the Championship than many other leagues which have the same claim made about them. Because people find it so hard to define what makes a league a strong one, I'd say it's hard to argue that it's a strong league year in, year out, but I think it's a compelling league most seasons even if the entertainment value in terms of good quality football is not overly high.

Two seasons ago, a deeply flawed City team finished in the top half of the division and were genuinely considered as Play Off possibles for about two thirds of the campaign. All of this in a season where we were being told that the standard at the top was so much better than the previous season and what happened, the three promoted teams lauded so much while they were in. the second tier, came straight back down with barely a whimper of protest - the truth was that Neil Warnock's unheralded team of 18/19 had made a much better fist of the Premier League than Ipswich, Leicester and Southampton did last season.

The terms we use to describe a division as weak, strong, good quality, mediocre, poor quality, etc, are all subjective. It's just opinions at the end of the day.

So, what are your views on what we've seen so far of League One? Would you regard the football being played by most of the teams at this level as being of a decent standard? Leaving City's form and style of play out of the equation, has anything about League One surprised you or is the quality of the division pretty much as you expected?

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

The terms we use to describe a division as weak, strong, good quality, mediocre, poor quality, etc, are all subjective. It's just opinions at the end of the day.

So, what are your views on what we've seen so far of League One? Would you regard the football being played by most of the teams at this level as being of a decent standard? Leaving City's form and style of play out of the equation, has anything about League One surprised you or is the quality of the division pretty much as you expected?

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It's worse than I expected and we are better than I expected, although I never thought that we would struggle, I had us down as 5th in the prediction thread, and I do think that we will go up this season.

I'm a bit surprised by this thread because if people can't judge the level of play in league 1, then surely they can judge the quality of player and what those players can or can't do at crucial moments in a game, after all, we have all been watching the game for many years.

From what I have seen there are a large chunk of players at this level who can't play, struggle to make good decisions, need an extra touch (That's a big one) need longer on the ball and generally lack quality. Whether it's worse or better than last season, I have absolutely no idea, But it's my opinion that the standard outside the top three or four is very poor.

You clearly have a short memory. Or you're a simpleton. But you're not a simpleton.

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Originally Posted by Garth Blue

You clearly have a short memory. Or you're a simpleton. But you're not a simpleton.

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What are you talking about? Spell it out. That can’t be too difficult for you surely?

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Originally Posted by Garth Blue

You clearly have a short memory. Or you're a simpleton. But you're not a simpleton.

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Don't know if that's for me, although I do have a short memory and I clearly admit that I can be a bit of a simpleton on times, can't we all ..

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

What are you talking about? Spell it out. That can’t be too difficult for you surely?

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Last season you said that the Championship was weak. To support your case you said that no teams were running away with the league and that teams at the bottom were often beating teams at the top (Or words to that effect. Like you I don't have the time to trawl though comments to find the exact words). I said that teams from the bottom beating teams at the top were evidence of a competitive league not a weak league. Yesterday, you made the same point. I'm glad you've now recogonised the weakness in your original argument.