40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel

Incidentally, I'm not trying to influence your beliefs. You're entitled to believe whatever you wish as long as you cause no harm to other humans or animals and keep your beliefs to yourself. I for one believe there are fairies at the back of my garden and no one could convince me otherwise.

Nevertheless, as the plethora of man made religions go, I've always felt the old Manaechian doctrine of humans being part God and part Devil with an eternal fight for dominance by the two psyches is the best explanation of the human plight. It's a never ending struggle for mastery of our collective soul which involves intellectual heft denouncing and finally defeating bestial selfishness.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

You've made my point, intelligence has nothing to do with morality, the question remains that IF we are evolved animals, then why do we have a sense of right and wrong when other animals will simply eat each other for lunch?

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Are you really pretending to stand on the side of morality?

I have no idea how you define morality but you have claimed on this board that the Israeli government is showing restraint in its ethnic cleansing of Palestinians who (I assume from everything else you have posted) you see as squatting on land that your god promised to his chosen people 3000+ years ago, as recorded in the the documents that came down to us as the Old Testament.

You are an immoral, reactionary, cheerleader for ethnic cleansing, genocide and crimes against humanity - all because you have an infantile belief in a stone age to medieval book that has been mangled over generations of mistranslations and feeds your need for a supernatural explanation for the universe and our place in the world.

Your constant banging on with biblical quotes to support your far right political views is tedious, irrelevant and and offensive. You won't stop, but I can't see any reason to pander to your crap any more. You are clearly fishing, and it would be better if there were no more bites!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Are you really pretending to stand on the side of morality?

I have no idea how you define morality but you have claimed on this board that the Israeli government is showing restraint in its ethnic cleansing of Palestinians who (I assume from everything else you have posted) you see as squatting on land that your god promised to his chosen people 3000+ years ago, as recorded in the the documents that came down to us as the Old Testament.

You are an immoral, reactionary, cheerleader for ethnic cleansing, genocide and crimes against humanity - all because you have an infantile belief in a stone age to medieval book that has been mangled over generations of mistranslations and feeds your need for a supernatural explanation for the universe and our place in the world.

Your constant banging on with biblical quotes to support your far right political views is tedious, irrelevant and and offensive. You won't stop, but I can't see any reason to pander to your crap any more. You are clearly fishing, and it would be better if there were no more bites!

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Why doesn't he just keep his ridiculous nonsense to himself?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Are you suggesting that non-Christians do not have morals and/or are incapable of coming up with any? As the majority of the population of the world are not of your ilk (and never has been) that sounds rather ridiculous.

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Well?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Incidentally, I'm not trying to influence your beliefs. You're entitled to believe whatever you wish as long as you cause no harm to other humans or animals and keep your beliefs to yourself. I for one believe there are fairies at the back of my garden and no one could convince me otherwise.

Nevertheless, as the plethora of man made religions go, I've always felt the old Manaechian doctrine of humans being part God and part Devil with an eternal fight for dominance by the two psyches is the best explanation of the human plight. It's a never ending struggle for mastery of our collective soul which involves intellectual heft denouncing and finally defeating bestial selfishness.

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Not bad for a agnostic/secular construct, but how would that be fair to non intellectuals?

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Well?

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The issue isn't what (for some) is the convenience of morality, but the origin of it?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

The issue isn't what (for some) is the convenience of morality, but the origin of it?

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So is it your belief that the Christian god is resposible for injecting humanity with morals in China (population 1.5 billion), India (population 1.5 billion) and throughout the of Muslims world (population c. 1.8 billion)? numbers

*I used Wikipedia population figures but it's not a hill I would be prepared to die on, as it were. Anyone with any nous will get the thrust of my question.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

So is it your belief that the Christian god is resposible for injecting humanity with morals in China (population 1.5 billion), India (population 1.5 billion) and throughout the of Muslims world (population c. 1.8 billion)? numbers

*I used Wikipedia population figures but it's not a hill I would be prepared to die on, as it were. Anyone with any nous will get the thrust of my question.

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No, in fact here is what Christ said about the human heart in it's natural state:-

Matthew 15:19 - "For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander"

NB: 15 minutes of Eastenders should provide examples of most of these if clarification is needed.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

No, in fact here is what Christ said about the human heart in it's natural state:-

Matthew 15:19 - "For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander"

NB: 15 minutes of Eastenders should provide examples of most of these if clarification is needed.

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Thoughts do not come from the heart.

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Originally Posted by jeepster

Thoughts do not come from the heart.

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Here is your god 'science' addressing the issue:-

The biological relationship between the heart and the brain
The heart pumps blood. It is needed for survival. The heart does not have components that manifest as thinking but it does show strong changes to emotions, but it can’t itself feel. The brain/mind allows us to think, feel, and act using many systems of neurons that work together. The brain/mind creates emotions and thoughts. We also know that the brain guides the functioning of every other organ, including the heart. Organs respond to each other and work together. They are in a feedback loop.

The heart has about 40,000 neurites (projections from a neuron’s cell body) of its own – commonly called “the little brain[1],” which is also recently 3-D mapped[2]. They monitor and adjust the heart’s functions and send signals back to the brain[3], which indirectly influences perception and decision-making. There are theories that these neurites also participate in habit-style learning and memory. In comparison to the neurites in the brain (100 billion neurons with 50-60 neurites each), 40,000 is almost zero, but not zero.

Emotions cause changes in heart rate[4], and have a unique “cardiac profile” for common emotions. Sadness increases blood pressure and resistance in the circulatory system but reduces the amount of blood pumped. Fear and joy increase systolic blood pressure. Anger increases blood output and diastolic blood pressure. Generally, emotions change 4 very important properties of the cardiovascular system: Blood pressure, heart rate variability, vascular resistance, and heart output. This is why relaxation exercises work – we can consciously control how the heart works to a small extent using emotions.

Changes in heart rate due to non-psychological reasons[5] like food, diet, organ regulation, disease, etc., affect our emotions too. In fact, the James-Lange theory of emotion (re-interpreted with new findings) states that emotions are labeled in the brain after physiological changes. And those changes then affect our perception, which again changes the body’s response. For example, a sudden change in heart rate might cause a person to worry, and then anxious thoughts coming from detecting worrisome information can further increase heart rate after that.

But the relationship between the 2 is more complicated.[6] The medulla oblongata, a part of the brainstem, is one of the most primitive regions of the brain, and it controls automatic processes like heartbeat and breathing. Damage to this area can slowly degrade breathing and heart function. In neurodegenerative disorders like ALS, Parkinson’s, and Alzheimer’s, neurons in that area can die or malfunction and eventually lead to death by cardiac arrest.

More physiological changes like physical ticking, facial expressions, pupil dilation, sweating, changes in voice, etc., indicate emotional states. That’s why the idea that emotions are physical also seems accurate in everyday scenarios. We have evolved to experience the mental aspect of emotions along with physical changes. Our sympathetic nervous system and parasympathetic nervous system connect emotions and physical changes. This association is so strong that it continuously reinforces the connection between the heart and emotion. We don’t experience one without the other. Physical changes make emotions tangible and observable to others, too. That is why we can gain some insight into other people’s emotional states by observing their physical states – especially, the heart – the speed of pumping, heaviness, and chest movement.

These observations show the heart is closely tied to emotions at a physical level, but the labeling of emotion occurs in the brain. So, using the word “heart” to represent emotions is quite natural and logical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

No, in fact here is what Christ said about the human heart in it's natural state:-

Matthew 15:19 - "For from the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, all sexual immorality, theft, lying, and slander"

NB: 15 minutes of Eastenders should provide examples of most of these if clarification is needed.

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The heart is a muscle and pumps blood. It has little to do with morality as far as we know.
As for quoting Jesus, there's no proof he said such a thing or was the son of your god anyway.

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Originally Posted by jeepster

Thoughts do not come from the heart.

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"Source - Eastenders" is f**king ballsy, you've got to respect it

Quote:

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Here is your god 'science' addressing the issue:-

The biological relationship between the heart and the brain
The heart pumps blood. It is needed for survival. The heart does not have components that manifest as thinking but it does show strong changes to emotions, but it can’t itself feel. The brain/mind allows us to think, feel, and act using many systems of neurons that work together. The brain/mind creates emotions and thoughts. We also know that the brain guides the functioning of every other organ, including the heart. Organs respond to each other and work together. They are in a feedback loop.

The heart has about 40,000 neurites (projections from a neuron’s cell body) of its own – commonly called “the little brain[1],” which is also recently 3-D mapped[2]. They monitor and adjust the heart’s functions and send signals back to the brain[3], which indirectly influences perception and decision-making. There are theories that these neurites also participate in habit-style learning and memory. In comparison to the neurites in the brain (100 billion neurons with 50-60 neurites each), 40,000 is almost zero, but not zero.

Emotions cause changes in heart rate[4], and have a unique “cardiac profile” for common emotions. Sadness increases blood pressure and resistance in the circulatory system but reduces the amount of blood pumped. Fear and joy increase systolic blood pressure. Anger increases blood output and diastolic blood pressure. Generally, emotions change 4 very important properties of the cardiovascular system: Blood pressure, heart rate variability, vascular resistance, and heart output. This is why relaxation exercises work – we can consciously control how the heart works to a small extent using emotions.

Changes in heart rate due to non-psychological reasons[5] like food, diet, organ regulation, disease, etc., affect our emotions too. In fact, the James-Lange theory of emotion (re-interpreted with new findings) states that emotions are labeled in the brain after physiological changes. And those changes then affect our perception, which again changes the body’s response. For example, a sudden change in heart rate might cause a person to worry, and then anxious thoughts coming from detecting worrisome information can further increase heart rate after that.

But the relationship between the 2 is more complicated.[6] The medulla oblongata, a part of the brainstem, is one of the most primitive regions of the brain, and it controls automatic processes like heartbeat and breathing. Damage to this area can slowly degrade breathing and heart function. In neurodegenerative disorders like ALS, Parkinson’s, and Alzheimer’s, neurons in that area can die or malfunction and eventually lead to death by cardiac arrest.

More physiological changes like physical ticking, facial expressions, pupil dilation, sweating, changes in voice, etc., indicate emotional states. That’s why the idea that emotions are physical also seems accurate in everyday scenarios. We have evolved to experience the mental aspect of emotions along with physical changes. Our sympathetic nervous system and parasympathetic nervous system connect emotions and physical changes. This association is so strong that it continuously reinforces the connection between the heart and emotion. We don’t experience one without the other. Physical changes make emotions tangible and observable to others, too. That is why we can gain some insight into other people’s emotional states by observing their physical states – especially, the heart – the speed of pumping, heaviness, and chest movement.

These observations show the heart is closely tied to emotions at a physical level, but the labeling of emotion occurs in the brain. So, using the word “heart” to represent emotions is quite natural and logical.

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You have this weird spin about the word 'science'. It's not a belief system like religion. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Religion (yours anyway): Things written by anonymous people millenia ago writing stories (often contradictory) that often appeared in previous religions and by people who were not witnesses to the event.
Science: The most renowned and respected scientists attach their names to papers they write and provide as much evidence as they can for their peers to review.

Religion: Set in stone. God's word and 'he' is the unarguable authority. 100% true. Can't be modified.
Science: A process of trying to ascertain an understanding of the world and the universe by trial and error. Even the best scientists make mistakes and make wrong assumptions but progress seems to be made in the main. Hence the ability to destroy some cancers, enable space travel and vaccinate against diseease that were once more prevalent. No-one is the ultimate authority. Theories modify and change as more information becomes available. Not knowing something is not a problem for most thinking scientists or members of the public.

Religion Scientists throughout history have been vilified, killed and tortured for espousing theories that were contrary to the teachings of the church. Offers a reward for its believers and punishment for those who are non-believers.
Science Punishment and reward are absent.

Religion Describes non-believers as lesser people in that they are heretics, blasphemers, infidels, apostates and not going to the Christian heaven. Hugely divisive and a contributory factor to wars and conflict as a result.
Science N/A

Religion: Comes up with no evidence that seems pass a test that will satisfy the average person with analytical skills and who wasn't brought up in the religion.
Science: Findings are shared, tests can be made by others around the world and there's no monopoly on the findings (whether they stand up to later informationreceived or not)

If you equate science with your religion you are being rather ridiculous. Science, with its shortfalls due to our imperfect knowledge, is the complete antithesis of religion.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

"Source - Eastenders" is f**king ballsy, you've got to respect it

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🤣🤣

Quote:

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Here is your god 'science' addressing the issue:-

The biological relationship between the heart and the brain
The heart pumps blood. It is needed for survival. The heart does not have components that manifest as thinking but it does show strong changes to emotions, but it can’t itself feel. The brain/mind allows us to think, feel, and act using many systems of neurons that work together. The brain/mind creates emotions and thoughts. We also know that the brain guides the functioning of every other organ, including the heart. Organs respond to each other and work together. They are in a feedback loop.

The heart has about 40,000 neurites (projections from a neuron’s cell body) of its own – commonly called “the little brain[1],” which is also recently 3-D mapped[2]. They monitor and adjust the heart’s functions and send signals back to the brain[3], which indirectly influences perception and decision-making. There are theories that these neurites also participate in habit-style learning and memory. In comparison to the neurites in the brain (100 billion neurons with 50-60 neurites each), 40,000 is almost zero, but not zero.

Emotions cause changes in heart rate[4], and have a unique “cardiac profile” for common emotions. Sadness increases blood pressure and resistance in the circulatory system but reduces the amount of blood pumped. Fear and joy increase systolic blood pressure. Anger increases blood output and diastolic blood pressure. Generally, emotions change 4 very important properties of the cardiovascular system: Blood pressure, heart rate variability, vascular resistance, and heart output. This is why relaxation exercises work – we can consciously control how the heart works to a small extent using emotions.

Changes in heart rate due to non-psychological reasons[5] like food, diet, organ regulation, disease, etc., affect our emotions too. In fact, the James-Lange theory of emotion (re-interpreted with new findings) states that emotions are labeled in the brain after physiological changes. And those changes then affect our perception, which again changes the body’s response. For example, a sudden change in heart rate might cause a person to worry, and then anxious thoughts coming from detecting worrisome information can further increase heart rate after that.

But the relationship between the 2 is more complicated.[6] The medulla oblongata, a part of the brainstem, is one of the most primitive regions of the brain, and it controls automatic processes like heartbeat and breathing. Damage to this area can slowly degrade breathing and heart function. In neurodegenerative disorders like ALS, Parkinson’s, and Alzheimer’s, neurons in that area can die or malfunction and eventually lead to death by cardiac arrest.

More physiological changes like physical ticking, facial expressions, pupil dilation, sweating, changes in voice, etc., indicate emotional states. That’s why the idea that emotions are physical also seems accurate in everyday scenarios. We have evolved to experience the mental aspect of emotions along with physical changes. Our sympathetic nervous system and parasympathetic nervous system connect emotions and physical changes. This association is so strong that it continuously reinforces the connection between the heart and emotion. We don’t experience one without the other. Physical changes make emotions tangible and observable to others, too. That is why we can gain some insight into other people’s emotional states by observing their physical states – especially, the heart – the speed of pumping, heaviness, and chest movement.

These observations show the heart is closely tied to emotions at a physical level, but the labeling of emotion occurs in the brain. So, using the word “heart” to represent emotions is quite natural and logical.

---

You have this weird spin about the word 'science'. It's not a belief system like religion. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Religion (yours anyway): Things written by anonymous people millenia ago writing stories (often contradictory) that often appeared in previous religions and by people who were not witnesses to the event.
Science: The most renowned and respected scientists attach their names to papers they write and provide as much evidence as they can for their peers to review.

Religion: Set in stone. God's word and 'he' is the unarguable authority. 100% true. Can't be modified.
Science: A process of trying to ascertain an understanding of the world and the universe by trial and error. Even the best scientists make mistakes and make wrong assumptions but progress seems to be made in the main. Hence the ability to destroy some cancers, enable space travel and vaccinate against diseease that were once more prevalent. No-one is the ultimate authority. Theories modify and change as more information becomes available. Not knowing something is not a problem for most thinking scientists or members of the public.

Religion Scientists throughout history have been vilified, killed and tortured for espousing theories that were contrary to the teachings of the church. Offers a reward for its believers and punishment for those who are non-believers.
Science Punishment and reward are absent.

Religion Describes non-believers as lesser people in that they are heretics, blasphemers, infidels, apostates and not going to the Christian heaven. Hugely divisive and a contributory factor to wars and conflict as a result.
Science N/A

Religion: Comes up with no evidence that seems pass a test that will satisfy the average person with analytical skills and who wasn't brought up in the religion.
Science: Findings are shared, tests can be made by others around the world and there's no monopoly on the findings (whether they stand up to later information received or not)

If you equate science with your religion you are being rather ridiculous. Science, with its shortfalls due to our imperfect knowledge, is the complete antithesis of religion.

Forgetting the religious guff truthpaste spouts that we all know is made up mumbo jumbo eons ago by church loons trying to control the population with fear, I think ww3 might have just kicked off….

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Originally Posted by goats

Forgetting the religious guff truthpaste spouts that we all know is made up mumbo jumbo eons ago by church loons trying to control the population with fear, I think ww3 might have just kicked off….

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It's of enormous concern but I wouldn't imagine that it will start a world war, as such.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

It's of enormous concern but I wouldn't imagine that it will start a world war, as such.

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The Middle East morelike

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Originally Posted by goats

The Middle East morelike

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Not 'ww3' then

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

Not 'ww3' then

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They tend to start subtly

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Originally Posted by goats

Forgetting the religious guff truthpaste spouts that we all know is made up mumbo jumbo eons ago by church loons trying to control the population with fear, I think ww3 might have just kicked off….

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Ezekiel beat you by over 2,500 years and identified ALL the main players in this conflict, but just dismiss it as some religious 'guff' spouted by loons. Humanity changes not.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Ezekiel beat you by over 2,500 years and identified ALL the main players in this conflict, but just dismiss it as some religious 'guff' spouted by loons. Humanity changes not.

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Btec Nostradamus.

Just done a Google deep dive and it turns out this Ezekiel predicted Tyre would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, and that Egypt would be 'laid waste' by the king of Babylon. Neither happened!

He also predicted that Israel would live in peace with its' neighbours. I suppose Netanyahu got bored and stopped reading by that bit!

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Btec Nostradamus.

Just done a Google deep dive and it turns out this Ezekiel predicted Tyre would be destroyed by Nebuchadnezzar, and that Egypt would be 'laid waste' by the king of Babylon. Neither happened!

He also predicted that Israel would live in peace with its' neighbours. I suppose Netanyahu got bored and stopped reading by that bit!

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A deep dive into a book with 48 chapters in just seven minutes!

It shows.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Ezekiel beat you by over 2,500 years and identified ALL the main players in this conflict, but just dismiss it as some religious 'guff' spouted by loons. Humanity changes not.

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Glad he wrote it down, did anyone else too? Or were others opinions not important back then? I guess we can just assume his word was the one eh?

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Originally Posted by goats

Glad he wrote it down, did anyone else too? Or were others opinions not important back then? I guess we can just assume his word was the one eh?

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Yes, prophecy makes up over 25% of the entire Bible, many of the prophecies overlap with more than one prophet giving their take on the same event from a different perspective. Sometimes the future event is given to one prophet, other events can be given to numerous individuals. What you have to remember is the chances of many people (most of them who never met each other and came from different eras and cultures, from fishermen to kings, all recorded a collective document that harmonises and complements every other section of writing; this is one of the things that proves that there is one mind behind all that was recorded. It's scope of origin is about 1600 years, with everything written down from around 1500BC to 100AD.
The second thing that proves it ultimately originates outside our time and space is it's intimate knowledge of the future, with the human authors having no way of even dreaming about the detailed future events they are writing down.

No other document in human history comes close to such detailed content.
It is when studied, proved to be the eternal word of God.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Yes, prophecy makes up over 25% of the entire Bible, many of the prophecies overlap with more than one prophet giving their take on the same event from a different perspective. Sometimes the future event is given to one prophet, other events can be given to numerous individuals. What you have to remember is the chances of many people (most of them who never met each other and came from different eras and cultures, from fishermen to kings, all recorded a collective document that harmonises and complements every other section of writing; this is one of the things that proves that there is one mind behind all that was recorded. It's scope of origin is about 1600 years, with everything written down from around 1500BC to 100AD.
The second thing that proves it ultimately originates outside our time and space is it's intimate knowledge of the future, with the human authors having no way of even dreaming about the detailed future events they are writing down.

No other document in human history comes close to such detailed content.
It is when studied, proved to be the eternal word of God.

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So, who chose what was recorded in these prophets documents back then? Exactly, just the ones they wanted. Early missionaries spouting their nonsense to try and control the masses as far back as time goes. No one is buying it anymore….looking at the state of the church in the uk and the age if those who go, I’d be amazed if hardly any churches still exist in 100 years, a bit like the decline seen in the last 100 years. I’m just off to watch Jurassic park with the kids

Quote:

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Originally Posted by goats

So, who chose what was recorded in these prophets documents back then? Exactly, just the ones they wanted. Early missionaries spouting their nonsense to try and control the masses as far back as time goes. No one is buying it anymore….looking at the state of the church in the uk and the age if those who go, I’d be amazed if hardly any churches still exist in 100 years, a bit like the decline seen in the last 100 years. I’m just off to watch Jurassic park with the kids

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That's an interesting conclusion, the Bible is consistently THE best selling book year on year, yet nobody is buying it :hehe:

I notice you immediately switched your attack from the Bible to the state of churches in the UK, that is NOT an argument.

Enjoy your popcorn, fiction and half-term :thumbup:

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

That's an interesting conclusion, the Bible is consistently THE best selling book year on year, yet nobody is buying it :hehe:

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After another deep dive into the dark corners of Google I have discovered that 100 million bibles are 'sold' each year (in recent decades). But just one organisation (The Bible Society) accounts for 40% of those 'sales' - and it distributes 'free' copies to anyone it can get to take one! There are other evangelical and missionary organisations and cults that also buy or print vast numbers of bibles and hand them out including the Gideons that are, amazingly, still going and filling up hotel room drawers with unread tomes.

I have no doubt that a very large number of bibles have been printed and distributed over the centuries, and no doubt some of them were bought by individuals. But after Gutenberg invented the printing press it seems the majority (certainly since the mid nineteenth century) have been given away. Not exactly a queue outside Waterstones for the latest imprint!

I have got three bibles in the house (or rather two full bibles and one New Testament) and didn't buy any of them. One was given by a school, the other two by a church. I have also got a Koran which I did buy - out of curiosity. Ownership of these books is not evidence of belief.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jon1959

After another deep dive into the dark corners of Google I have discovered that 100 million bibles are 'sold' each year (in recent decades). But just one organisation (The Bible Society) accounts for 40% of those 'sales' - and it distributes 'free' copies to anyone it can get to take one! There are other evangelical and missionary organisations and cults that also buy or print vast numbers of bibles and hand them out including the Gideons that are, amazingly, still going and filling up hotel room drawers with unread tomes.

I have no doubt that a very large number of bibles have been printed and distributed over the centuries, and no doubt some of them were bought by individuals. But after Gutenberg invented the printing press it seems the majority (certainly since the mid nineteenth century) have been given away. Not exactly a queue outside Waterstones for the latest imprint!

I have got three bibles in the house (or rather two full bibles and one New Testament) and didn't buy any of them. One was given by a school, the other two by a church. I have also got a Koran which I did buy - out of curiosity. Ownership of these books is not evidence of belief.

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The act of paying for a book is not always connected to how much we appreciate or value it.
About ten years ago I was invited to an annual dinner event held by the Gideons. It included numerous testimonies of individuals who had read a Gideon Bible at places such as Police Stations, Hospitals, Schools and Army Barracks. That one free copy had provided the key moment in their lives, as they discovered who Christ Jesus really was, and what He had done for them, the result was this, it gave them a real purpose, it changed their earthly lives and their eternal destiny.
The Bible will continue to be bought, given away and read. Only eternity will reveal all the results.

And while the future of the USA remains in the balance, here are two great men from its history:-

“I believe the Bible is the best gift God has ever given to man. All the good from The Saviour of the world is communicated to us through this Book.” Abraham Lincoln

“No educated man can afford to be ignorant of the Bible.” Theodore Roosevelt

Interesting:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...state-solution

Criticism of the Israeli government and calls for tolerance and a commitment to a two-state solution were the major themes of an event in London on Sunday organised by the left-leaning Israeli newspaper Haaretz.

The conference, titled Israel After October 7th: Allied or Alone?, featured speakers from across Israeli and UK politics, academia and media. It served in part to show the extent to which some members of the Jewish diaspora have been traumatised not just by the horrors of 7 October but also the response of Benjamin Netanyahu’s government.

Haaretz’s publisher, Amos Schocken, opened the event by saying the Israeli government was so disastrous and had so distorted Zionism that the only recourse lay in the international community applying sanctions, just as it had done to change apartheid South Africa.

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Many speakers urged Labour to do more. Ayman Odeh, the leader of Israel’s Arab-Jewish party Hadash, said the UK government must “end all military, financial and diplomatic support” provided to the Netanyahu government.

“Palestinians themselves are looking for a different future, and therefore it underlines the urgency of ending the conflict and establishing a new reality for Gaza, one which provides Israel with the security it needs, and Palestinians in Gaza with the ability to govern themselves effectively, and that is what we must all work towards,” Odeh said.

Naama Lazimi, a member of the recently formed Democrats in the Knesset, singled out Israel’s far-right national security minister, Itamar Ben-Gvir, for criticism, accusing him of undermining the independence of the police and destroying Israeli values of pluralism.

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Critics will say the event was a throwback to an Israel that has gone, destroyed by demography, Hamas extremism and Netanyahu’s populism. The most senior Israeli politician present was the former prime minister Ehud Olmert. The Israeli ambassador to the UK was not present.

The organisers insisted the event reflected a true cross-section of the Jewish diaspora, and as speaker after speaker said, no one has any other solution but two states eventually living side by side.

Lazimi reminded her audience: “A two-state solution – a Jewish state and a Palestinian state – might look far away now, but peace is made between enemies.”

“Palestinians themselves are looking for a different future, and therefore it underlines the urgency of ending the conflict and establishing a new reality for Gaza, one which provides Israel with the security it needs, and Palestinians in Gaza with the ability to govern themselves effectively, and that is what we must all work towards,” Odeh said.

If only they had thought of that a few decades ago. I can't see the two-state idea being a long term solution but it may work for a while to bring stability to the region along with rebuilding confidence, businesses and homes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

“Palestinians themselves are looking for a different future, and therefore it underlines the urgency of ending the conflict and establishing a new reality for Gaza, one which provides Israel with the security it needs, and Palestinians in Gaza with the ability to govern themselves effectively, and that is what we must all work towards,” Odeh said.

If only they had thought of that a few decades ago. I can't see the two-state idea being a long term solution but it may work for a while to bring stability to the region along with rebuilding confidence, businesses and homes.

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If only the British had thought of that decades ago. It's not a good idea to parachute an ethnic group into other people's homelands and encourage them to lay waste to the indigenous population

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

If only the British had thought of that decades ago. It's not a good idea to parachute an ethnic group into other people's homelands and encourage them to lay waste to the indigenous population

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Any part of history can look peculiar if viewed within a limited timeframe.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Any part of history can look peculiar if viewed within a limited timeframe.

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Maybe so but what we're talking about isn't peculiar, it was sinister.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Maybe so but what we're talking about isn't peculiar, it was sinister.

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Weren’t the Israeli Arabs there first some 2/3000 years ago?

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Originally Posted by goats

Weren’t the Israeli Arabs there first some 2/3000 years ago?

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I'm not really sure what ethnic group they comprised apart from being Semites.

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Originally Posted by goats

Weren’t the Israeli Arabs there first some 2/3000 years ago?

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This may answer your question:

1)Before the modern state of Israel there was the British mandate, Not a Palestinian state .

2) Before the British mandate there was the ottoman empire, Not a Palestinian state .

3) Before the ottoman empire there was the Islamic mamluk sultanate of Egypt, Not a Palestinian state .

4)Before the Islamic mamluk sultanate of Egypt there was the ayyubid dynasty, Not a Palestinian state .Godfrey of bouillon conquered it in 1099.

5) Before the ayyubid dynasty there was the christian kingdom of Jerusalem, Not a Palestinian state .

6) Before the christian kingdom of Jerusalem there was the Fatimid caliphate, Not a Palestinian state .

7) Before the Fatimid caliphate there was the byzantine empire, Not a Palestinian state .

8)) Before the byzantine empire there was the Roman empire, Not a Palestinian state .

9) Before the Roman empire there was the hasmonean dynasty, Not a Palestinian state .

10)Before the hasmonean dynasty there was the Seleucid empire,Not a Palestinian state .

11) Before the Seleucid empire there was the empire of Alexander the 3rd of Macedon, Not a Palestinian state .

12) Before the empire of Alexander the 3rd of Macedon there was the Persian empire, Not a Palestinian state .

13) Before the Persian empire there was the Babylonian empire, Not a Palestinian state .

14) Before the Babylonian empire there was the kingdoms of Israel and Judea, Not a Palestinian state .

15) Before the kingdoms of Israel and Judea there was the kingdom of Israel, Not a Palestinian state .

16) Before the kingdom of Israel there was the theocracy of the 12 tribes of Israel, Not a Palestinian state .

17) Before the theocracy of the 12 tribes of Israel there was the individual state of Canaan, Not a Palestinian state .

In fact in this corner of the earth there was everything but a Palestinian state!

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

This may answer your question:

1)Before the modern state of Israel there was the British mandate, Not a Palestinian state .

2) Before the British mandate there was the ottoman empire, Not a Palestinian state .

3) Before the ottoman empire there was the Islamic mamluk sultanate of Egypt, Not a Palestinian state .

4)Before the Islamic mamluk sultanate of Egypt there was the ayyubid dynasty, Not a Palestinian state .Godfrey of bouillon conquered it in 1099.

5) Before the ayyubid dynasty there was the christian kingdom of Jerusalem, Not a Palestinian state .

6) Before the christian kingdom of Jerusalem there was the Fatimid caliphate, Not a Palestinian state .

7) Before the Fatimid caliphate there was the byzantine empire, Not a Palestinian state .

8)) Before the byzantine empire there was the Roman empire, Not a Palestinian state .

9) Before the Roman empire there was the hasmonean dynasty, Not a Palestinian state .

10)Before the hasmonean dynasty there was the Seleucid empire,Not a Palestinian state .

11) Before the Seleucid empire there was the empire of Alexander the 3rd of Macedon, Not a Palestinian state .

12) Before the empire of Alexander the 3rd of Macedon there was the Persian empire, Not a Palestinian state .

13) Before the Persian empire there was the Babylonian empire, Not a Palestinian state .

14) Before the Babylonian empire there was the kingdoms of Israel and Judea, Not a Palestinian state .

15) Before the kingdoms of Israel and Judea there was the kingdom of Israel, Not a Palestinian state .

16) Before the kingdom of Israel there was the theocracy of the 12 tribes of Israel, Not a Palestinian state .

17) Before the theocracy of the 12 tribes of Israel there was the individual state of Canaan, Not a Palestinian state .

In fact in this corner of the earth there was everything but a Palestinian state!

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Thanks for that but a more simple explanation would have sufficed. Been reading up on it, in the distant past I guess the various groups lived side by side with no real borders as such. All changed when the Jews were forced to leave their land….

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Originally Posted by goats

Thanks for that but a more simple explanation would have sufficed. Been reading up on it, in the distant past I guess the various groups lived side by side with no real borders as such. All changed when the Jews were forced to leave their land….

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No problem, maybe the detail wasn't necessary for a few, but be in no doubt, it is certainly more than necessary for some.
While I fully agree with your final comment, it's interesting to note that a remnant of Jews have always remained in the land.
This song (with lyrics) will provide more avenues of study for those who wish to read more about these unique people who have a remarkable and unprecedented history.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

No problem, maybe the detail wasn't necessary for a few, but be in no doubt, it is certainly more than necessary for some.
While I fully agree with your final comment, it's interesting to note that a remnant of Jews have always remained in the land.
This song (with lyrics) will provide more avenues of study for those who wish to read more about these unique people who have a remarkable and unprecedented history.

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All people are unique, and all have a remarkable and unprecedented history.