-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
If someone actually thinks all lives matter is the equivalent of blm I honestly don’t think they’re worth engaging with if they still think it after it’s pointed out why it was started. I wouldn’t waste my time replying to James again.
Again for the hard of hearing; Black Lives Matter doesn’t mean only Black Lives Matter. It means they currently don’t matter and should matter as much as other people’s lives do.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
It may be. For some people. But the point is you can stand by all lives matter as s solid progressive principle and it doesn't mean you advocate stopping the RNLI saving lives.
The world is nuanced
It's not a solid progressive principle, its antagonism towards blm , thats what it's about
I hope you are sensible enough to see that
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
If someone actually thinks all lives matter is the equivalent of blm I honestly don’t think they’re worth engaging with if they still think it after it’s pointed out why it was started. I wouldn’t waste my time replying to James again.
Again for the hard of hearing; Black Lives Matter doesn’t mean only Black Lives Matter. It means they currently don’t matter and should matter as much as other people’s lives do.
In one
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
BLM will not solve the problem of racism but its a start
All lives matter is cried out by on the whole racists who simply use the phrase to deflect from their own racism . Its yeah but what about us ! ......without accepting the clear reason for protest by black people affected by racism in the first place .
I think shouting out ....all lives matter ! ....is clearly a defensive cry that wouldn't be needed if the issue of racism was addressed in the first place .
A bloke I know has a shop where he pontificate to people who are in there long enough about George Floyd being a bad guy ......which he was .....without talking about the racism that killed him . During the BLM summer he was full of stuff he had lifted from the Internet from mostly dubious sources about the protestors all being ....Marxists! .....and that the knee on his neck not being in any way related to his death . He was a black historian , a toxicologist , a pathologist and a scenes of crime expert , every day in his shop . Where no black people would go , in a town where very few black people lived and in his life where he didn't know any black people .
He is an idiot and as soon as the all lives matter cry went up , he was shouting .
There are loads of people like him , just in Wales .
Racists .
Is it a start though? Or is it exacerbating and highlighting differences between groups and allowing some very unsavoury groups to be associated under the banner?
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
In one
No one is saying it's the same. I'm just saying thatconsistently preaching that all lives matter is, or certainly can be, a pretty reasonable and progressive statement that doesn't seel to drive wedges.
Bad characters will always attach themselves to all groups, BLM certainly included but it doesn't mean it represents all members.
I honestly think it will create more division than it solves. There's a reason the football authorities rightly stressed the taking of the knee shouldn't be seen as connected to the organisation
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
No one is saying it's the same. I'm just saying thatconsistently preaching that all lives matter is, or certainly can be, a pretty reasonable and progressive statement that doesn't seel to drive wedges.
Bad characters will always attach themselves to all groups, BLM certainly included but it doesn't mean it represents all members.
I honestly think it will create more division than it solves. There's a reason the football authorities rightly stressed the taking of the knee shouldn't be seen as connected to the organisation
All lives matter is always going to be associated with racists
And that's because it attracts them
People I know but do not associate with who cry all lives matter are racists and have been long before the George Floyd murder
I am afraid its like moths to a light
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Perhaps in hindsight, Black Lives Matter Too may have been a more understandable slogan, especially to the ignorant churning out all lives matter.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
splott parker
Perhaps in hindsight, Black Lives Matter Too may have been a more understandable slogan, especially to the ignorant churning out all lives matter.
It wouldn’t matter the type of people you’d want it to be more clear for don’t actually give a shit anyway. They would have come up with something as equally disingenuous as all lives matter.
I can’t believe there are people who say it in good faith with no agenda.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Gammon lives don't matter
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
It wouldn’t matter the type of people you’d want it to be more clear for don’t actually give a shit anyway. They would have come up with something as equally disingenuous as all lives matter.
I can’t believe there are people who say it in good faith with no agenda.
Agreed, or they're really thick and don't understand the message. Protests aren't really protests if they encompass every last person on this planet. Just aint gonna work.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
No one is saying it's the same. I'm just saying thatconsistently preaching that all lives matter is, or certainly can be, a pretty reasonable and progressive statement that doesn't seel to drive wedges.
Can you please enlighten me as to why saying Black Lives Matter drives wedges?
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Can you please enlighten me as to why saying Black Lives Matter drives wedges?
Everyone shouted 'All lives Matter' Then they went home.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Speaking as someone who has brought a Syrian refugee family to live in the UK under the Home Office local community sponsorship scheme I would say that first priority needs to be given to families with young children. These families could be segregated in France and be brought over safely by normal means i.e. cross channel ferries, thus avoiding the sea crossing in flimsy inflatables and of course the people smugglers who provide them.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Can you please enlighten me as to why saying Black Lives Matter drives wedges?
Saying it doesn't, same as saying Jewish lives matter or all lives matter doesn't.
The organisation though, at the forefront of identity politics fundamentally is shifting how we view society, entrenching within us that our most important characteristics are those which we cannot control; sex, skin colour, nationality etc
By endlessly prefixing people with a skin colour you seperate us up. Sometimes that is relevent in understanding social issues, but usually it isn't.
There is very little progressive about it. It is the wrong diagnosis of the problem and when you get the diagnosis wrong, you get the medicine to fix it wrong. For example, there has been a massive increase in black people murdered in the last year as police have retreated more. This helps no one. It's far from all tied to th BLM movement but it's all connected. There is no focus on what actually kills most black people.
I don't advocate some of the extremists that latch on to 'all lives matter' anymore than the small minority of extremists those who latch onto 'black lives matter' (and someone who does and who posted about killing white people murdered six of them last week by driving his car into them).
It's just all very reactionary and the end result will drive us apart and amplify difference, where we stop seeing people and start seeing a colour.
There's loads of interesting articles on it.
https://unherd.com/2020/08/why-racia...e-reactionary/
https://youtu.be/HT0P3eeMO08
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
I think this sums up the regressive nature of a lot of identity politics for me.
https://youtu.be/Ev373c7wSRg
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
Speaking as someone who has brought a Syrian refugee family to live in the UK under the Home Office local community sponsorship scheme I would say that first priority needs to be given to families with young children. These families could be segregated in France and be brought over safely by normal means i.e. cross channel ferries, thus avoiding the sea crossing in flimsy inflatables and of course the people smugglers who provide them.
Good for you, and I agree.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Everyone shouted 'All lives Matter' Then they went home.
The same people who say all lives matter will go about “identity politics” like it’s some silver bullet to the whole thing.
To most people Black Lives Matter means don’t be racist. People will twist it and the politics but they’re very transparent.
Anyone saying all lives matter is either stupid, ignorant or trying to detract from the actual message. They aren’t worth debating it with .
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
The same people who say all lives matter will go about “identity politics” like it’s some silver bullet to the whole thing.
To most people Black Lives Matter means don’t be racist. People will twist it and the politics but they’re very transparent.
Anyone saying all lives matter is either stupid, ignorant or trying to detract from the actual message. They aren’t worth debating it with .
To effectively say "anyone who disagrees with me is ignorant or stupid" takes quite some lack of self awareness.
I hope ur right. I suspect you aren't. I think you are making things worse.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
To effectively say "anyone who disagrees with me is ignorant or stupid" takes quite some lack of self awareness.
I hope ur right. I suspect you aren't. I think you are making things worse.
What does All lives matter mean then? It's obvious what black lives matter means.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
What does All lives matter mean then? It's obvious what black lives matter means.
I would suggest it means that it's better, more progressive to go down the route of treating all human beings with equal dignity and not dividing up along racial lines.
I'm not saying I go around saying it - I don't. My point was that the debate has become so utterly preposterous that someone felt, admittedly in jest perhaps, that saying 'all lives matter' is comparable to trying to prevent the RNLI from saving drowning people.
If anything demonstrates how toxic and divisive this is then it's that. A perfectly reasonable, rational phrase has become toxic because it doesn't fit the identity politics, racialised narrative that determines that skin colour MUST play a part.
We need to step back from this way of thinking in my opinion. It's dangerous stuff.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Hmmm, if I was living under a bridge with rats to keep me company, would I be thinking of the quality of French sport, the sophisticated bars and buildings, the beautiful country side and maybe, just maybe, a chateau if I work hard enough and the French property market levels out? Add to that, a biffing accent that makes the ladies quiver.
Or would I be thinking of getting to a country with a sizeable community from my culture, country or surrounding countries with the chance of a bed and the opportunity to earn a few quid on the black market. It's a difficult decision.
"Or would I be thinking of getting to a country with a sizeable community from my culture"
Apologies if I have read this wrong, I have a habit of doing that on here, but isn't there a sizeable African and Muslim community on France?
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
Saying it doesn't, same as saying Jewish lives matter or all lives matter doesn't.
The organisation though, at the forefront of identity politics fundamentally is shifting how we view society, entrenching within us that our most important characteristics are those which we cannot control; sex, skin colour, nationality etc
By endlessly prefixing people with a skin colour you seperate us up. Sometimes that is relevent in understanding social issues, but usually it isn't.
There is very little progressive about it. It is the wrong diagnosis of the problem and when you get the diagnosis wrong, you get the medicine to fix it wrong. For example, there has been a massive increase in black people murdered in the last year as police have retreated more. This helps no one. It's far from all tied to th BLM movement but it's all connected. There is no focus on what actually kills most black people.
I don't advocate some of the extremists that latch on to 'all lives matter' anymore than the small minority of extremists those who latch onto 'black lives matter' (and someone who does and who posted about killing white people murdered six of them last week by driving his car into them).
It's just all very reactionary and the end result will drive us apart and amplify difference, where we stop seeing people and start seeing a colour.
There's loads of interesting articles on it.
https://unherd.com/2020/08/why-racia...e-reactionary/
https://youtu.be/HT0P3eeMO08
Sorry, but I think that's a load of bunkum.
You have the opportunity to say three words. Black Lives Matter. That's all it is. I couldn't give a flying feck if such a phrase has been hijacked by some extremists. How can anyone say 'All Lives Matter' but can't say 'Black Lives Matter'?
In the UK we live in a predominantly white, Christian/non-believing society where men get on better than women, where most people are heterosexual. We have lived in a society where hatred towards those who don't fit that description has been normalised in generations gone by.
I have friends and family who are homosexual. The fight of the homosexual community to have equality continues. I will happily support Gay pride. I get pissed off when w@nkers ask why gay people need gay pride, when there is no equivalent for straight people. It misses the point completely.
I have black friends. Racism is still a massive problem in this country whether we admit it or not. I don't know what it is like to suffer racism. Most black people here do. That is unacceptable. That is why Black Lives Matter to me. Solidarity with fellow human beings and standing up to say racism is unacceptable. I'm proud to say it.
For all of your "I can see both sides of the story" and "I read both sides of the argument", if your dislike for saying 'Black Lives Matters' is because of a few extremists, then you're a cockwomble.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Sorry, but I think that's a load of bunkum.
You have the opportunity to say three words. Black Lives Matter. That's all it is. I couldn't give a flying feck if such a phrase has been hijacked by some extremists. How can anyone say 'All Lives Matter' but can't say 'Black Lives Matter'?
In the UK we live in a predominantly white, Christian/non-believing society where men get on better than women, where most people are heterosexual. We have lived in a society where hatred towards those who don't fit that description has been normalised in generations gone by.
I have friends and family who are homosexual. The fight of the homosexual community to have equality continues. I will happily support Gay pride. I get pissed off when w@nkers ask why gay people need gay pride, when there is no equivalent for straight people. It misses the point completely.
I have black friends. Racism is still a massive problem in this country whether we admit it or not. I don't know what it is like to suffer racism. Most black people here do. That is unacceptable. That is why Black Lives Matter to me. Solidarity with fellow human beings and standing up to say racism is unacceptable. I'm proud to say it.
For all of your "I can see both sides of the story" and "I read both sides of the argument", if your dislike for saying 'Black Lives Matters' is because of a few extremists, then you're a cockwomble.
I don't dispute what you say and like you I have a pretty diverse range of friends. I just don't think it will work. Ultimately it will drum racialised thinking into people and not solve the issues at hand. I don't think there's much evidence it's helping at all. Fundamentally I think when you endlessly emphasise the difference then you bake that difference into thinking and policies. Do we really view the United States as an example we want to follow on race politics? Really?
Also, nearly every social metric is worse for men than women btw. But the point is we all can suffer. Some more than others of course and it's important to focus on that, I just don't think the BLM movement is the right movement to do that
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I don't dispute what you say and like you I have a pretty diverse range of friends. I just don't think it will work. Ultimately it will drum racialised thinking into people and not solve the issues at hand. I don't think there's much evidence it's helping at all. Fundamentally I think when you endlessly emphasise the difference then you bake that difference into thinking and policies. Do we really view the United States as an example we want to follow on race politics? Really?
Also, nearly every social metric is worse for men than women btw. But the point is we all can suffer. Some more than others of course and it's important to focus on that, I just don't think the BLM movement is the right movement to do that
What fecking movement? It's three words.
-
Re: Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Sorry, but I think that's a load of bunkum.
You have the opportunity to say three words. Black Lives Matter. That's all it is. I couldn't give a flying feck if such a phrase has been hijacked by some extremists. How can anyone say 'All Lives Matter' but can't say 'Black Lives Matter'?
In the UK we live in a predominantly white, Christian/non-believing society where men get on better than women, where most people are heterosexual. We have lived in a society where hatred towards those who don't fit that description has been normalised in generations gone by.
I have friends and family who are homosexual. The fight of the homosexual community to have equality continues. I will happily support Gay pride. I get pissed off when w@nkers ask why gay people need gay pride, when there is no equivalent for straight people. It misses the point completely.
I have black friends. Racism is still a massive problem in this country whether we admit it or not. I don't know what it is like to suffer racism. Most black people here do. That is unacceptable. That is why Black Lives Matter to me. Solidarity with fellow human beings and standing up to say racism is unacceptable. I'm proud to say it.
For all of your "I can see both sides of the story" and "I read both sides of the argument", if your dislike for saying 'Black Lives Matters' is because of a few extremists, then you're a cockwomble.
Not worth it mate, this has been going on for years and if people still haven’t grasped the basic fact and would rather pontificate about alt right buzz words than just say that racism is bad then they never will.
In a lot of the world (especially America) it is obvious currently a black life is worth less than a non black one. All black people want is to be treated equally. And certain people would rather stir just say oh but what about non black people, like they really give a shit.