1 in 5 children is living below the poverty line in every part of Wales ?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Wasn't the miners' strike unofficial ? I also recall Scargill was demanding 100% pay rises - when coal was costing more and more to produce.

---

none of that is relevant, feedback was saying that the global financial crisis of 2008 had a bigger effect on Wales than Thatcherism in the 80s. I was just pointing out that in the experience of a lot of people, Thatcherism was much worse

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rjk

the prevailing view in the conservative party at the time (80s) was that once the jobs were all gone people would leave the area and move to London or other cities where there were jobs.
they also considered doing the same to the city of Liverpool.
literally zero concept that people would want to stay where they had grown up and where their family all were.

---

there is merit in depopulating parts of the valleys, as those communities were only created to extract coal out of the ground. when the extraction economy finished, the communities were going to decline. As unpalatable as that may sound, its just reality.

The topography of the valleys does not lend itself well to modern day light and hi-tec industry, so it is always going to be difficult to replace something like mining. However, there is a degree of historical revisionism, as the mines only employed 3% of the workforce in 1984, so losing that 3% isn't going to impact the overall economy in the way that is being described. We saw much greater job losses in 2008 yet we don't say the communities suffered as much, even though they most probably did, given the lack of government support at that time.

The anti Thatcher/Tory rhetoric is merely dogma, one that promulgates throughout the political discourse of South Wales politics. The fact is, it was nearly 40 years ago - two generations - and in that time we have had Labour rule at Westminster and Welsh Labour rule in the Senedd. If the economic fortunes could have been reversed, Labour and the left have had plenty of time and opportunity to do so.

The fact is, Wales has a weak economy (you only need to look at all the land surrounding the Senedd that remains undeveloped - anywhere else in the world and land next to government is prime real estate that is snapped up), Labour know this, and they keep the Welsh population voting for them by continually blaming the Tories, even though the decline had set in long before Thatcher.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

feedback believes in capitalism and the power of the market place

Money regulates everything

You are wasting your time

---

I believe in responsible capitalism and social democracy sludge. what I don't believe is the version of history as you interpret it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

Feedy is an accountant, isn't he? he's just scared that under Socialism, he'd be made to do something more productive and positive to benefit society. I'd give him a sweeping brush and a black bag and start him at the top of Bute St :hehe: Disclaimer (joke alert)

---

I have no problem with social democracy at all, I also have no issues with certain aspects of socialism, if the state remains well clear of it and allows the people to decide.

My first job was on a building site, making compo. it was good fun but I decided I could better serve my community by making sure the state doesn't sting the little guy by hammering him for tax

:thumbup:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

I believe in responsible capitalism and social democracy sludge. what I don't believe is the version of history as you interpret it.

---

Come on responsible capitalism is a oxymoron

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

I have no problem with social democracy at all, I also have no issues with certain aspects of socialism, if the state remains well clear of it and allows the people to decide.

My first job was on a building site, making compo. it was good fun but I decided I could better serve my community by making sure the state doesn't sting the little guy by hammering him for tax

:thumbup:

---

The boys from the blackstuff, a self made man

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

The percentage decline in jobs under Thatcher was actually double that under Wilson,(UK wide) Yes, Labour closed mines, no argument from me. Miners knew that the pits would close at some point, there was never an unlimited supply of coal. The reason why Thatcher is despised so much is because this happened at a time of very high unemployment, miners wives were refused hardship payments to feed their kids. It was ideological, the attack was wholesale and not about economics, but an attack on organised Labour. She humiliated these communities, wanted them defeated and on their knees, without real alternative in terms of jobs, re training and opportunity. That's why she is despised, it was cruel and vicious, and we are seeing the effects of what she did up until this day.

---

Good post.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by WJ99mobile

You’re looking at a topic too broadly.

AI and automation will displace more jobs than the coal pit closures ever did but it’s governments task to replace those jobs in the areas it displaces.

For the tories in that era the areas most displaced were neglected and were still paying the price now.

Our topography doesn’t help us but you can’t hide that we were the casualty chosen in order to protect the UK as a whole

---

when discussing economics you have to take a broad brush,. you can't go down to the individual level. You understand full well our topography makes anything resembling large modern manufacturing out of the question, and we can't build huge industrial parks at the top of the Valleys as the market won't go there.

My view is that we should depopulate the northern valleys building better integrated communities between Cardiff, RCT, Caerphilly. Cardiff isn't an economic powerhouse but it does ok. Create jobs there that actually bring economic value to Wales, have a modern integrated public transport system and things may improve.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

thats because you are one of his lot

I ain't

---

You couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m a working class boy from Ely. You’re problem, is you are blinkered when it comes to politics.
Anyone who disagrees with you is aTory in your eyes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

there is merit in depopulating parts of the valleys, as those communities were only created to extract coal out of the ground. when the extraction economy finished, the communities were going to decline. As unpalatable as that may sound, its just reality.

The topography of the valleys does not lend itself well to modern day light and hi-tec industry, so it is always going to be difficult to replace something like mining. However, there is a degree of historical revisionism, as the mines only employed 3% of the workforce in 1984, so losing that 3% isn't going to impact the overall economy in the way that is being described. We saw much greater job losses in 2008 yet we don't say the communities suffered as much, even though they most probably did, given the lack of government support at that time.

The anti Thatcher/Tory rhetoric is merely dogma, one that promulgates throughout the political discourse of South Wales politics. The fact is, it was nearly 40 years ago - two generations - and in that time we have had Labour rule at Westminster and Welsh Labour rule in the Senedd. If the economic fortunes could have been reversed, Labour and the left have had plenty of time and opportunity to do so.

The fact is, Wales has a weak economy (you only need to look at all the land surrounding the Senedd that remains undeveloped - anywhere else in the world and land next to government is prime real estate that is snapped up), Labour know this, and they keep the Welsh population voting for them by continually blaming the Tories, even though the decline had set in long before Thatcher.

---

3 percent of a workforce in quite well paid employment, that had direct links to manufacturing, maintenance, repair, transport, logistics, and plenty of that within the boundaries of those communities. You know that the actual figure wasn't the one you've quoted, overall. The knock on effect was huge in every respect, from the local cafe to the factory making parts and the local boozer etc.

The other thing to takei into account was the community emphasis that the mining industry created. People were upwardly mobile and proactive in terms of social care and community events, thus creating a good environment for people to grow up in, which leads to better health, motivation and something to protect and nurture. That aspect went with the attack on these communities, without a doubt.

What we are left with is a population that has had it's dignity and pride stripped away, generations of people without any real opportunity within their community, poor levels of education, teenage pregnancy, addiction to prescription drugs (see Blaenau Gwent) 30 years of neglect on both sides of the political spectrum, it's very sad to see. The difference with Thatcher is that she set out to crush these people and all that they stood for, she saw them as the enemy. It was vicious and uncompromising, that's why the Tories are hated, because they crushed these communities, and Labour have done very little for them in subsequent years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

3 percent of a workforce in quite well paid employment, that had direct links to manufacturing, maintenance, repair, transport, logistics, and plenty of that within the boundaries of those communities. You know that the actual figure wasn't the one you've quoted, overall. The knock on effect was huge in every respect, from the local cafe to the factory making parts and the local boozer etc.

The other thing to takei into account was the community emphasis that the mining industry created. People were upwardly mobile and proactive in terms of social care and community events, thus creating a good environment for people to grow up in, which leads to better health, motivation and something to protect and nurture. That aspect went with the attack on these communities, without a doubt.

What we are left with is a population that has had it's dignity and pride stripped away, generations of people without any real opportunity within their community, poor levels of education, teenage pregnancy, addiction to prescription drugs (see Blaenau Gwent) 30 years of neglect on both sides of the political spectrum, it's very sad to see. The difference with Thatcher is that she set out to crush these people and all that they stood for, she saw them as the enemy. It was vicious and uncompromising, that's why the Tories are hated, because they crushed these communities, and Labour have done very little for them in subsequent years.

---

I disagree that the Tories and Thatcher set out to decimate these communities. There was a poster on here who said he was 18 years old in 1984 and was working the mines. He spent the summer above ground and was afforded the opportunity to retrain. He even toasted Thatcher on her death.

That was an anecdote of someone who benefitted. I'm not naive to think everyone could retrain, but the opportunity was there.

And whilst there would have been job losses in the mining supply chain, this did not amount to 6% that we saw in 2008. The job losses in 1984 were significantly less than that.

You can believe whatever you want, but checking the facts would indicate you're not being objective in your critique. That's OK as it's your right to be as dogmatic and blinkered as you want, but what you state was not experienced by a significant proportion of the 20k or so miners who lost their jobs

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

I disagree that the Tories and Thatcher set out to decimate these communities. There was a poster on here who said he was 18 years old in 1984 and was working the mines. He spent the summer above ground and was afforded the opportunity to retrain. He even toasted Thatcher on her death.

That was an anecdote of someone who benefitted. I'm not naive to think everyone could retrain, but the opportunity was there.

And whilst there would have been job losses in the mining supply chain, this did not amount to 6% that we saw in 2008. The job losses in 1984 were significantly less than that.

You can believe whatever you want, but checking the facts would indicate you're not being objective in your critique. That's OK as it's your right to be as dogmatic and blinkered as you want, but what you state was not experienced by a significant proportion of the 20k or so miners who lost their jobs

---

Got to hand it to you, you’re the best on here at posting figures galore while never bothering with the links to back them up. Just about a decade before the 80s miners strike, they played as big a part as anyone in bringing down Ted Heath’s Government, yet you don’t think that played a part in how the Thatcher Government handled the closing stages of that idiot Scargill’s strike?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

I disagree that the Tories and Thatcher set out to decimate these communities. There was a poster on here who said he was 18 years old in 1984 and was working the mines. He spent the summer above ground and was afforded the opportunity to retrain. He even toasted Thatcher on her death.

That was an anecdote of someone who benefitted. I'm not naive to think everyone could retrain, but the opportunity was there.

And whilst there would have been job losses in the mining supply chain, this did not amount to 6% that we saw in 2008. The job losses in 1984 were significantly less than that.

You can believe whatever you want, but checking the facts would indicate you're not being objective in your critique. That's OK as it's your right to be as dogmatic and blinkered as you want, but what you state was not experienced by a significant proportion of the 20k or so miners who lost their jobs

---

Wow.

Using a 18 year old miner to back up your argument on retraining and opportunities.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Got to hand it to you, you’re the best on here at posting figures galore while never bothering with the links to back them up. Just about a decade before the 80s miners strike, they played as big a part as anyone in bringing down Ted Heath’s Government, yet you don’t think that played a part in how the Thatcher Government handled the closing stages of that idiot Scargill’s strike?

---

why do you always need links? are you suggesting that every time someone references anything and everything there needs to be citation? notwithstanding that point, fill your boots

mining numbers

impact of financial crash

from an unemployment low of 17,800 in Dec 2007 to a high of 44,400 in Dec 2012, Wales lost just under 30,000 jobs as a result of the great recession with the unemployment rate rising from 1.3% to 3.0% in the same period.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hilts

Wow.

Using a 18 year old miner to back up your argument on retraining and opportunities.

---

no. I was citing an anecdote of someone who was there and lived through it. all we have in response is dogma and rhetoric.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

no. I was citing an anecdote of someone who was there and lived through it. all we have in response is dogma and rhetoric.

---

Sorry. Im sure that 18 year old lived through all the hardships.

Wow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hilts

Sorry. Im sure that 18 year old lived through all the hardships.

Wow.

---

You seem to begrudge someone avoiding spending their life underground, taking an opportunity to retrain

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

why do you always need links? are you suggesting that every time someone references anything and everything there needs to be citation? notwithstanding that point, fill your boots

mining numbers

impact of financial crash

from an unemployment low of 17,800 in Dec 2007 to a high of 44,400 in Dec 2012, Wales lost just under 30,000 jobs as a result of the great recession with the unemployment rate rising from 1.3% to 3.0% in the same period.

---

No, I’m only saying that as you admitted recently that you wound up left wing posters on here for years (you used a term like “yanking their chain” as if that means something different, but if it does, it eludes me), I’m sceptical about any of the grand sweeping statements you’re fond of making without them being backed up by a link - it’s only you I was talking about regarding putting links in.

I see you ignored my question about the miners strikes of the 70s and 80s.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rjk

none of that is relevant, feedback was saying that the global financial crisis of 2008 had a bigger effect on Wales than Thatcherism in the 80s. I was just pointing out that in the experience of a lot of people, Thatcherism was much worse

---

You mean in the experience of the vocal minority who wish to push the anti tory agenda, some of whom were still sitting yellow in 1984

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by William Treseder

You couldn’t be further from the truth. I’m a working class boy from Ely. You’re problem, is you are blinkered when it comes to politics.
Anyone who disagrees with you is aTory in your eyes.

---

If you agree with a tory , you are generally a tory

I don't care where you come from or what class you are

Its completely irrelevant

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

No, I’m only saying that as you admitted recently that you wound up left wing posters on here for years (you used a term like “yanking their chain” as if that means something different, but if it does, it eludes me), I’m sceptical about any of the grand sweeping statements you’re fond of making without them being backed up by a link - it’s only you I was talking about regarding putting links in.

I see you ignored my question about the miners strikes of the 70s and 80s.

---

I didnt ignore anything. I hadn't realised you wanted my comment.

Let me go re-read what you asked/wrote and I'll come back

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Feedback

You seem to begrudge someone avoiding spending their life underground, taking an opportunity to retrain

---

No.

😂😂

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Got to hand it to you, you’re the best on here at posting figures galore while never bothering with the links to back them up. Just about a decade before the 80s miners strike, they played as big a part as anyone in bringing down Ted Heath’s Government, yet you don’t think that played a part in how the Thatcher Government handled the closing stages of that idiot Scargill’s strike?

---

In answer to your question I imagine that it played a part in their thinking, certainly they were aware that union power needed to be curtailed. Its not right that unions should be able to bring down a government, thats the job of the electorate.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Hilts

No.

😂😂

---

Yet you dismissed the anecdote due to them being only 18.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

No, I’m only saying that as you admitted recently that you wound up left wing posters on here for years (you used a term like “yanking their chain” as if that means something different, but if it does, it eludes me), I’m sceptical about any of the grand sweeping statements you’re fond of making without them being backed up by a link - it’s only you I was talking about regarding putting links in.

I see you ignored my question about the miners strikes of the 70s and 80s.

---

Now I've given my opinion regarding your comment about miners/strikers bringing down the tory government, do you have any comment about the figures I've provided? Whether you like it or not, UK and Qelsh mining was on its arse and it was only a matter of time before the industry collapsed.