Imagine Norwich winning the FA Cup

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

She's a very sexy lady

I spoke to her once outside the grandstand at NP

But she was with a dodgy looking bloke so I did a runner

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I remember her ex.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

I'm giving you information about what sexual assault is and the concept of consent. If I'm being kind, your understanding of it as I interpret from you posts suggest it's limited.

Whether or not you need to reflect on your past behaviour is your call? You're the one who brought them up.

I wasn't in the habit of getting piissed up and snogging strangers on the off chance they wanted to have me kissing them? You feel free to carry on believing I did if it makes you feel better?

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Fully aware of what it can be interpreted as thanks, but context matters and you seemed to be accusing me of things. People who kiss on a night out do not typically get written or verbal consent before doing so. I think the kind of line you are pushing is the kind of thing that gives grave sexual anxiety to many young people tbh.

If you genuinely care about womens rights and safety there are far better things you can do than make wild accusations on here.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

I'm giving you information about what sexual assault is and the concept of consent. If I'm being kind, your understanding of it as I interpret from you posts suggest it's limited.

Whether or not you need to reflect on your past behaviour is your call? You're the one who brought them up.

I wasn't in the habit of getting piissed up and snogging strangers on the off chance they wanted to have me kissing them? You feel free to carry on believing I did if it makes you feel better?

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This Spanish fa chap didn't go up to a drunken vulnerable woman and kiss her face off

He knew her , she knew him

At first she didn't appear offended by the kiss in any way at all

That doesn't mean it's always going to be acceptable behaviour of course

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Fully aware of what it can be interpreted as thanks, but context matters and you seemed to be accusing me of things. People who kiss on a night out do not typically get written or verbal consent before doing so. I think the kind of line you are pushing is the kind of thing that gives grave sexual anxiety to many young people tbh.

If you genuinely care about womens rights and safety there are far better things you can do than make wild accusations on here.

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Jimbo, the real issue here was your initial lack of understanding on what is defined as sexual assault and the concept of consent within the law.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

This Spanish fa chap didn't go up to a drunken vulnerable woman and kiss her face off

He knew her , she knew him

At first she didn't appear offended by the kiss in any way at all

That doesn't mean it's always going to be acceptable behaviour of course

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What are you rambling about?

Sludge, whether or not Robiales is guilty of sexual assault or not, I’ll let the powers that be deal with it but I suggest to you look up the definition of sexual assault and consent under UK law.

“He knew her, she knew him...” what’s the relevant point there? You do know up to 90% of victims of rape and sexual assault knew their attackers?

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Jimbo, the real issue here was your initial lack of understanding on what is defined as sexual assault and the concept of consent within the law.

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Not at all. I understand consent, but I also understand that these things are not always absolutely black and white, and the example here is a case in point (that is being investigated) as is the examples I gave of people kissing on nights out etc, when one person will typically 'lean in' without written or verbal consent.

For that you started talking about drunken sex pests and shared a link to a rape crisis charity.

You can present these things as black and white issues if you like, but the reality is that they aren't.

There's an enormous amount of abuse of females that goes on and coercive control is an area I feel particularly strongly about but this case is overblown in my opinion and actually masks bigger issues for me, and I've spoken to several women about it in the last week and not come across a single one taking the line you seem to be taking and I'm not really sure a kiss on the lips per se is sexual. Tongues is, I'm not sure a peck is, even between adults.

I take your point on consent more generally but I don't think you can be calling people sex pests for having a slightly different take on this tbh.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

What are you rambling about?

Sludge, whether or not Robiales is guilty of sexual assault or not, I’ll let the powers that be deal with it but I suggest to you look up the definition of sexual assault and consent under UK law.

“He knew her, she knew him...” what’s the relevant point there? You do know up to 90% of victims of rape and sexual assault knew their attackers?

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Jesus Christ

If you think this sort of thing is always a sexual assault .....and it's clear that you do ......then the cells are going to be full from here till eternity

There are plenty of times when this sort of kiss is totally unwanted , intimidating and sometimes a criminal act but thank feck you are not on the jury

You sound like a trendy lefty , the type that at university would join the women's society and go to their discos and go on field trips to displays of early female artwork in Greece


And then go home and read Fiesta because Kathy Lloyd's in it this month


You ain't fooling me sonny

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Jesus Christ

If you think this sort of thing is always a sexual assault .....and it's clear that you do ......then the cells are going to be full from here till eternity

There are plenty of times when this sort of kiss is totally unwanted , intimidating and sometimes a criminal act but thank feck you are not on the jury

You sound like a trendy lefty , the type that at university would join the women's society and go to their discos and go on field trips to displays of early female artwork in Greece


And then go home and read Fiesta because Kathy Lloyd's in it this month


You ain't fooling me sonny

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Man who seemingly lives with his waanking sock, porn collection and frequently describes women as “rotters” (yes I know it’s in the main parody) fails to understand the legal definition of sexual assault because he is a massively opinionated arse.

Not a surprise really.

How was Kathy Lloyd looking in Fiesta? Worth a pull?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Not at all. I understand consent, but I also understand that these things are not always absolutely black and white, and the example here is a case in point (that is being investigated) as is the examples I gave of people kissing on nights out etc, when one person will typically 'lean in' without written or verbal consent.

For that you started talking about drunken sex pests and shared a link to a rape crisis charity.

You can present these things as black and white issues if you like, but the reality is that they aren't.

There's an enormous amount of abuse of females that goes on and coercive control is an area I feel particularly strongly about but this case is overblown in my opinion and actually masks bigger issues for me, and I've spoken to several women about it in the last week and not come across a single one taking the line you seem to be taking and I'm not really sure a kiss on the lips per se is sexual. Tongues is, I'm not sure a peck is, even between adults.

I take your point on consent more generally but I don't think you can be calling people sex pests for having a slightly different take on this tbh.

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James “leaning in” can be construed a ‘trying it on’. The politics, issues and social norms on this subject have changed and evolved greatly over the last few decades even years. What may have been seen as appropriate behaviour previously is now seen (rightly for me) as not. I suppose that’s why we don’t see men pinch or slap women’s arses as much as the previous decades where Carry On films and Benny Hill ruled comedy?

Women are more aware of their rights and what is abuse, what previously was seen as ‘fair game’ isn’t. I think women are calling that progress. Some men seem to be struggling with it? ‘Trying it on’ in the noughties (naughtiest perhaps) could be construed as overstepping the mark now.

In the Robiales v Hermoso incident, using UK Law is there reason to believe an investigation should be considered? By definition and the seemingly lack of consent then I’ll say ‘Yes’. I’ll let the powers to be decide the outcome. As already stated (I think by yourself?) if not sexual assault it’s certainly an abuse of power, position and deeply inappropriate behaviour.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

James “leaning in” can be construed a ‘trying it on’. The politics, issues and social norms on this subject have changed and evolved greatly over the last few decades even years. What may have been seen as appropriate behaviour previously is now seen (rightly for me) as not. I suppose that’s why we don’t see men pinch or slap women’s arses as much as the previous decades where Carry On films and Benny Hill ruled comedy?

Women are more aware of their rights and what is abuse, what previously was seen as ‘fair game’ isn’t. I think women are calling that progress. Some men seem to be struggling with it? ‘Trying it on’ in the noughties (naughtiest perhaps) could be construed as overstepping the mark now.

In the Robiales v Hermoso incident, using UK Law is there reason to believe an investigation should be considered? By definition and the seemingly lack of consent then I’ll say ‘Yes’. I’ll let the powers to be decide the outcome. As already stated (I think by yourself?) if not sexual assault it’s certainly an abuse of power, position and deeply inappropriate behaviour.

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The last sentence is a great point. This isn't "oh, she knows him", there is a massive gulf in their respective positions, and it happened on a public occasion which made it even less likely that she could immediately protest.

I think I remember seeing Hollywood actors feeling up actresses on red carpet walks and the women not able to move their hands because of where they were.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Man who seemingly lives with his waanking sock, porn collection and frequently describes women as “rotters” (yes I know it’s in the main parody) fails to understand the legal definition of sexual assault because he is a massively opinionated arse.

Not a surprise really.

How was Kathy Lloyd looking in Fiesta? Worth a pull?

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She was great

And you had a look too

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66632652

Interesting perspective and details in there, although it’s mainly from women so I’m not sure if it counts?

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?sto...l&id=583817882

Some folks on here don’t seem to appreciate that there are varying degrees of sexual assault - just like other crimes such as theft. Nobody here is suggesting that anyone who kisses a girl without their consent can expect to face jail time. Just like you wouldn’t go to jail for minor shoplifting. But it’s still theft and you may expect to lose your job over it. Same deal with this Hermoso case. Get it?

Duplicate post

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

James “leaning in” can be construed a ‘trying it on’. The politics, issues and social norms on this subject have changed and evolved greatly over the last few decades even years. What may have been seen as appropriate behaviour previously is now seen (rightly for me) as not. I suppose that’s why we don’t see men pinch or slap women’s arses as much as the previous decades where Carry On films and Benny Hill ruled comedy?

Women are more aware of their rights and what is abuse, what previously was seen as ‘fair game’ isn’t. I think women are calling that progress. Some men seem to be struggling with it? ‘Trying it on’ in the noughties (naughtiest perhaps) could be construed as overstepping the mark now.

In the Robiales v Hermoso incident, using UK Law is there reason to believe an investigation should be considered? By definition and the seemingly lack of consent then I’ll say ‘Yes’. I’ll let the powers to be decide the outcome. As already stated (I think by yourself?) if not sexual assault it’s certainly an abuse of power, position and deeply inappropriate behaviour.

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I don’t think anyone is advocating the pinching or slapping of arses whatsoever, so not sure those examples are of great value, although as you say, they do demonstrate how times change, not that I ever recall those periods and I am in my early 40s.

I think you will find women have a diversity of opinions on this topic and certainly do in terms of what is considered ‘abuse’ and I think you need to be pretty careful in labelling going in to kiss someone as ‘sexual abuse’. The world is full of people trying to understand other peoples feelings, and many men and women (particularly younger ones) will try and kiss someone and if it isn’t wanted, the person pulls away. To label that person as a sexual abuser is I think very damaging and to even present this as an idea does contribute to a world in which there is growing social and sexual anxiety amongst young people. As I said, I don’t think it’s progress, I think it’s actually a very conservative approach to sexuality and human interaction.

In this case, no one doubts that he shouldn’t have done it or that an investigation shouldn’t occur if she requested one – which she has. I also acknowledge the power dynamic The question is whether this really is sexual abuse and what the consequence of it is and I’m not really sure that kissing on lips is by definition sexual, as again, blanket interpretations of this can’t always be provided.

I strongly suspect there is more going on here. Have you seen the video of the players on the bus? The BBC of course have not reported on that, instead populating their article (which you posted above) with the usual opinions that back up their stance, which they shouldn’t even really have, as they should be neutral.

Either way, trying to label me some kind of sexual abuser isn’t really on Jordi. Slap on the wrist for that (not a real one, don’t report me for assault!)

This is the video that emerged today btw. You can ask yourselves why the BBC decide to do articles in which they ask people like Laura Bates for comments but don't report on this? I have my own theory on that, but presentation of the full story doesn't seem to be their motivation.

https://en.as.com/videos/video-emerg...biales-kiss-v/

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I don’t think anyone is advocating the pinching or slapping of arses whatsoever, so not sure those examples are of great value, although as you say, they do demonstrate how times change, not that I ever recall those periods and I am in my early 40s.

I think you will find women have a diversity of opinions on this topic and certainly do in terms of what is considered ‘abuse’ and I think you need to be pretty careful in labelling going in to kiss someone as ‘sexual abuse’. The world is full of people trying to understand other peoples feelings, and many men and women (particularly younger ones) will try and kiss someone and if it isn’t wanted, the person pulls away. To label that person as a sexual abuser is I think very damaging and to even present this as an idea does contribute to a world in which there is growing social and sexual anxiety amongst young people. As I said, I don’t think it’s progress, I think it’s actually a very conservative approach to sexuality and human interaction.

In this case, no one doubts that he shouldn’t have done it or that an investigation shouldn’t occur if she requested one – which she has. I also acknowledge the power dynamic The question is whether this really is sexual abuse and what the consequence of it is and I’m not really sure that kissing on lips is by definition sexual, as again, blanket interpretations of this can’t always be provided.

I strongly suspect there is more going on here. Have you seen the video of the players on the bus? The BBC of course have not reported on that, instead populating their article (which you posted above) with the usual opinions that back up their stance, which they shouldn’t even really have, as they should be neutral.

Either way, trying to label me some kind of sexual abuser isn’t really on Jordi. Slap on the wrist for that (not a real one, don’t report me for assault!)

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Fair play James, your unwillingness to acknowledge legal definitions, recognise situations that could be construed as sexual asssult as legally defined and try changing the narrative where you are now the victim, sort of encapsulates how far there is to go in this issue.

Cheers for the slap on the wrist as admonishment, kinky and consensual by the way. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

This is the video that emerged today btw. You can ask yourselves why the BBC decide to do articles in which they ask people like Laura Bates for comments but don't report on this? I have my own theory on that, but presentation of the full story doesn't seem to be their motivation.

https://en.as.com/videos/video-emerg...biales-kiss-v/

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Three days ago you said:

"The whole story is so completely, utterly and ridiculously blown out of proportion, it is quite unbelievable, and it says a lot about the current state of the media IMO.. I'm going to try and stop following the story, it's all mad."


And now you're complaining that the BBC hasn't covered this video and isn't talking about it enough!

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Fair play James, your unwillingness to acknowledge legal definitions, recognise situations that could be construed as sexual asssult as legally defined and try changing the narrative where you are now the victim, sort of encapsulates how far there is to go in this issue.

Cheers for the slap on the wrist as admonishment, kinky and consensual by the way. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

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:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Fair play James, your unwillingness to acknowledge legal definitions, recognise situations that could be construed as sexual asssult as legally defined and try changing the narrative where you are now the victim, sort of encapsulates how far there is to go in this issue.

Cheers for the slap on the wrist as admonishment, kinky and consensual by the way. Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.

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I do accept the legal definition. I can read. My point, (which you know, but choose to ignore) is that this may or may not constitute that definition, and that I think there are probably serious consequences if it does - as opposed to just being awkward or a significant power dynamic issue, which I have fully recognised from the start.

And if you are going to be judge, jury and executioner with the law, you will also be aware that you cannot go around calling people sex pests online!

Just posting a link to the law and thinking that is that is not how the law works. Context always always matters, and your presentation of the issue as black and white is not really correct.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Three days ago you said:

"The whole story is so completely, utterly and ridiculously blown out of proportion, it is quite unbelievable, and it says a lot about the current state of the media IMO.. I'm going to try and stop following the story, it's all mad."


And now you're complaining that the BBC hasn't covered this video and isn't talking about it enough!

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Indeed, it is overblown! I didn't want to get involved, but after posting a fairly anodyne post someone else escalated it! I should learn to turn the other cheek..

I think if the BBC qre going to cover it, they should seek the truth, not use the story to pump out some articles from radical feminists and then ignore it when a video emerges that may paint the story in a different light.

It's a fantastic example of media bias really.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I do accept the legal definition. I can read. My point, (which you know, but choose to ignore) is that this may or may not constitute that definition, and that I think there are probably serious consequences if it does - as opposed to just being awkward or a significant power dynamic issue, which I have fully recognised from the start.

And if you are going to be judge, jury and executioner with the law, you will also be aware that you cannot go around calling people sex pests online!

Just posting a link to the law and thinking that is that is not how the law works. Context always always matters, and your presentation of the issue as black and white is not really correct.

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Oh wow...

I suggest you read my posts again.

Try not adding your own narrative which suit your opinions which are based on your personal life experiences

Use that famed ability of nuance you've bestowed on yourself and add other people's perspectives.

You can do this buddy.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

This is the video that emerged today btw. You can ask yourselves why the BBC decide to do articles in which they ask people like Laura Bates for comments but don't report on this? I have my own theory on that, but presentation of the full story doesn't seem to be their motivation.

https://en.as.com/videos/video-emerg...biales-kiss-v/

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Who is Laura Bates ?

It might be that the Spanish woman kissed by the president is utterly distraught at what happened and it could be that this video shows her trying her best to deal with the situation

But in my opinion that would probably be bollocks

Is it possible , irrespective of the fact that for some people it was unacceptable......for her and her team mates they felt it was exuberance......and they were just then getting on with enjoying their win

And then the press and others got hold of it and have helped guide the narrative ? Sort of channelling this fellas daft actions into a major war crime with all the attendant armchair psychologists wading in

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Oh wow...

I suggest you read my posts again.

Try not adding your own narrative which suit your opinions which are based on your personal life experiences

Use that famed ability of nuance you've bestowed on yourself and add other people's perspectives.

You can do this buddy.

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So we are supposed to post on messageboards without using our own opinions and life experiences?!

Yes, I've applied the nuance, and it doesn't point to just posting legal definitions, claiming it's sexual assault and then insinuating anyone who disagrees is a sex pest.

Put the pitch fork down Jordi! There's an investigation ongoing!