Palestine Action

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Originally Posted by chrisp_1927

Couple of links:
https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-...ack-arms-firm/

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...-firms-uk-site

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Thanks for the response and the links. Filton was certainly a significant (and atypical) incident.

I didn't realise the Terrorism Act (and Anti-Terror Police from the SE) were used so much in these prosecutions. One of the original 18 people arrested (5 more were arrested in June this year) was accused of assaulting a police officer who was arresting one of the other activists; more of them were charged with 'violent disorder' which seems to be a catch-all.

The tools/implements you referenced were in one of the linked reports - although it looks as if they were intended to be used to break in to the Elbit factory, one was used in the scuffle with police and factory security.

So I agree in this case the allegation was more than just breaking in and causing 'criminal damage' to an armaments factory. There might also be a charge of assault or ABH.

There were (and still are) existing laws that deal with those kind of incidents - without any need to label it terrorism or to use the full coercive power of the state to suppress direct action and intimidate protestors.

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Originally Posted by chrisp_1927

Sorry, I'm a bit late to reply. But their 'action' against elbit in Bristol contained the actions I mentioned. It's been very conveniently forgotten about by the guardian articles. I do think prescription is a bit strong, but with what they've done I wouldn't be surprised if there is intelligence on them being willing to do much worse. Then again it could just be Starmer trying to look tough again (the most likely option).

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Fair comment.

More violent terrorists stopped. These dangerous women won't be holding placards again!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...s-search-house

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Originally Posted by jon1959

More violent terrorists stopped. These dangerous women won't be holding placards again!

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...s-search-house

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What a load of shit those police should have been on the streets for the real criminals

The UK government’s ban on Palestine Action limits the rights and freedoms of people in the UK and is at odds with international law, the UN human rights chief has said.

Volker Türk, the UN human rights commissioner, said ministers’ decision to designate the group a terrorist organisation was “disproportionate and unnecessary” and called on them to rescind it.

In a statement on Friday, he said the ban amounted to an “impermissible restriction” of people’s rights to freedom of expression and assembly that was “at odds with the UK’s obligations under international human rights law”.

He added that the decision restricted the rights of people involved with Palestine Action “who have not themselves engaged in any underlying criminal activity but rather exercised their rights to freedom of expression, peaceful assembly and association”.

Türk said it could “lead to further chilling effect on the lawful exercise of these rights by many people” and that the UK government should halt any police and legal proceedings against protesters who have been arrested on the basis of the proscription.

The Guardian has contacted the Home Office for comment.

Dozens of people have been arrested for holding placards in support of Palestine Action since the group was proscribed on 5 July.

In a case reported by the Guardian on Thursday, an 80-year-old woman from Somerset was arrested for holding a placard at a pro-Palestine rally and was held by police for almost 27 hours, with officers forcing their way into her house and searching it.

Marianne Sorrell said she felt “very traumatised” after officers removed 19 items from her home, including iPads, a Palestine flag, books on Palestine, material related to Extinction Rebellion and the climate crisis, as well as drumsticks for – and a belt that holds – her samba drum.

In another case, armed police threatened to arrest a 42-year-old woman, Laura Murton, in Kent, for supporting a proscribed organisation because she was holding a Palestinian flag and had signs saying “Free Gaza” and “Israel is committing genocide”.

Several UN experts, civil liberties groups, cultural figures and hundreds of lawyers have condemned the ban as draconian and said it sets a dangerous precedent by conflating protest with terrorism. Concern has also been expressed by some Home Office staff.

Ministers proscribed the group under the Terrorism Act 2000 after some of its members broke into a military airfield in June and spray-painted two RAF aircraft. The ban means that being a member of Palestine Action or inviting support for it carries a maximum sentence of 14 years in prison.

Palestine Action is the first direct action protest group to be banned under the Terrorism Act, placing it in the same category as Islamic State, al-Qaida and the far-right group National Action.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...ts-volker-turk

Nice to see the BBC reporting on this too.

Stuff like this just totally undermines institutions like the UN really. The only reason people on here are vocal about is because they are left wing. If it were the other side of politics you would all be calling for them to be banned - as they would have been years ago

Oh FFS :facepalm:

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Originally Posted by stevo

Oh FFS :facepalm:

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When did a UN human rights chief last intervene on such matters?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

When did a UN human rights chief last intervene on such matters?

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Probably not often enough. Genocide is genocide, right?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

When did a UN human rights chief last intervene on such matters?

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Oh FFS :facepalm:




He seems to be very consistent. Which is good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volker_Türk

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Originally Posted by stevo

Probably not often enough. Genocide is genocide, right?

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Ironically enough I don't think they have formally declared that.

But that has nothing to do with Palestine Action. Whatever the rights and wrongs of something morally, you can't take the law into your own hands.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Oh FFS :facepalm:




He seems to be very consistent. Which is good.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volker_Türk

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Thought you would like him!

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Ironically enough I don't think they have formally declared that.

But that has nothing to do with Palestine Action. Whatever the rights and wrongs of something morally, you can't take the law into your own hands.

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Right. So what you’re saying is that until they declare it’s genocide in Gaza you’re happy to assume it’s not? Whatever.

As for Palestine Action - what they’re doing is an act of war. And a just war at that. It is NOT terrorism. Wake up and smell the coffee.

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Originally Posted by stevo

Right. So what you’re saying is that until they declare it’s genocide in Gaza you’re happy to assume it’s not? Whatever.

As for Palestine Action - what they’re doing is an act of war. And a just war at that. It is NOT terrorism. Wake up and smell the coffee.

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I think the legal definition of things does matter tbh.

I speak with my old Man twice a week.
He’s as working class as they come, always voted Labour and been a Union Member, he encouraged me to join The Union that I did in my first proper job after leaving school.

He has now decided to vote Reform and explained to me why.
Yet, He’s still very pragmatic and measured in his views, he really doesn’t like Kier Starmer but believes that it is essential that people get behind him and hope for the best as it’s in the Country’s interest for him to do well. He voted Remain in Brexit and after the vote…we have to go with what the people voted for.

Last night he really let go on the situation of The Palestinian crisis in Gaza which is really unlike him. I think I brought it out of him talking about a few documentaries that I have watched this last week about Yugoslavia.
My Dad calling out the atrocities in Gaza with the passion that he did surprised me.

I’m going to try and take some time to reassess my cynicism of the situation.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I think the legal definition of things does matter tbh.

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So, are you seeing a difference between the legal definition of genocide and what’s happening in Gaza? If so, please explain.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I speak with my old Man twice a week.
He’s as working class as they come, always voted Labour and been a Union Member, he encouraged me to join The Union that I did in my first proper job after leaving school.

He has now decided to vote Reform and explained to me why.
Yet, He’s still very pragmatic and measured in his views, he really doesn’t like Kier Starmer but believes that it is essential that people get behind him and hope for the best as it’s in the Country’s interest for him to do well. He voted Remain in Brexit and after the vote…we have to go with what the people voted for.

Last night he really let go on the situation of The Palestinian crisis in Gaza which is really unlike him. I think I brought it out of him talking about a few documentaries that I have watched this last week about Yugoslavia.
My Dad calling out the atrocities in Gaza with the passion that he did surprised me.

I’m going to try and take some time to reassess my cynicism of the situation.

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you mentioned Yugoslavia there

intrigued to know what you mean in relation to the Palestine situation ?

I might be going to Bosnia in a few weeks time i,m 50 50 at the minute

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Originally Posted by MOZZER2

you mentioned Yugoslavia there

intrigued to know what you mean in relation to the Palestine situation ?

I might be going to Bosnia in a few weeks time i,m 50 50 at the minute

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This last week I’ve watched a few documentaries about the fall of Yugoslavia including a six part series on BBC IPlayer that I believe was made in 1995.
So before the Kosovo conflict later and before the war crimes tribunal at The Hague.

It has interviews with most of the major players including Milosevic, Tudjman, Radivan Karadzic and Izetbegovic as well as UN Generals, David Owen and The US Ambassador at the time.

It really is compelling viewing but incredibly grim.

I watched another documentary on YouTube which was about 2 and a half hours long which gives a little deeper understanding of how Yugoslavia came to be, The way that Marshal Tito held it together, the Socialist economy that was initially prosperous but eventually failed and how decades if not centuries of resentment of the various ethnicities of each country came to the surface and resulted in genocide, ethnic cleansing and brutality beyond imagination.

Here is the second documentary that I watched, but I’d highly recommend The Fall of Yugoslavia on IPlayer as well.

https://youtu.be/OkQOQUrayxo?si=2xdCCL6uvW1ErKip

And now the police have decided not to arrest peaceful protestors challenging the proscription!

Maybe the stupidity of the situation is finally seeping through to police chiefs. Just needs to reach the government!

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/news/202...dmarsdn8syijsb

In a further indication of the chaos and confusion that the proscription of Palestine Action has plunged the police into, eight sign holders in Totnes (including George Monbiot) and three in Edinburgh on Saturday 26 July sat for sixty minutes without being arrested under the Terrorism Act after they joined a nationwide wave of protest as part of the Defend Our Juries’ campaign, Lift The Ban, opposing the Home Secretary’s classification of the direct action group as a ‘terrorist’ organisation.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I think the legal definition of things does matter tbh.

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Originally Posted by stevo

So, are you seeing a difference between the legal definition of genocide and what’s happening in Gaza? If so, please explain.

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JamesWales - I’m really interested to hear your thoughts on this.

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Originally Posted by stevo

JamesWales - I’m really interested to hear your thoughts on this.

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It's a war. It's ****ing horrendous. People are dying by the bucket load and it's heartbreaking and disgraceful but yes, whether or not a genocide is happening is not for me or others to determine when there is a legal definition, no? The dynamics of the war for me are less about genocide and more about the two sides having vastly disproportionate military hardware, which guarantees greatly more suffering on one side than the other, with absolutely tragic consequences for Palestinians.

I'm not really interested in the debate tbh. I think it's being exploited and it actually doesn't help bring an end to it at all. So personally I think it wise to stick to a legal definition. Others can argue it out if they so wish. I don't think throwing the word around has helped the conflict end quicker.

Cue a barrage of abuse now. (Which is why I'm not really interested in the debate over the technical definition of a word)

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

It's a war. It's ****ing horrendous. People are dying by the bucket load and it's heartbreaking and disgraceful but yes, whether or not a genocide is happening is not for me or others to determine when there is a legal definition, no? The dynamics of the war for me are less about genocide and more about the two sides having vastly disproportionate military hardware, which guarantees greatly more suffering on one side than the other, with absolutely tragic consequences for Palestinians.

I'm not really interested in the debate tbh. I think it's being exploited and it actually doesn't help bring an end to it at all. So personally I think it wise to stick to a legal definition. Others can argue it out if they so wish. I don't think throwing the word around has helped the conflict end quicker.

Cue a barrage of abuse now. (Which is why I'm not really interested in the debate over the technical definition of a word)

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You would have been (presumably) in favour of jail for gay people, against universal suffrage and pro slavery given, at the time, those were all illegal too. Or is the "law" an organic thing that eventually arcs towards justice and is incorrectly configured at present?

What happens to Palestine Action in September if the Government recognises the Palestinian state?

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Originally Posted by az city

You would have been (presumably) in favour of jail for gay people, against universal suffrage and pro slavery given, at the time, those were all illegal too. Or is the "law" an organic thing that eventually arcs towards justice and is incorrectly configured at present?

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:thumbup: