True socialism is the answer

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Originally Posted by Vindec

The thing which bothers me most about this thread is that so many people are totally one dimensional and cannot think beyond supporting one Political Party. How anyone can reconcile throwing money at everything and taxing business is good for the economy and the country's finances has a screw loose. Once I supported the Labour Party but cannot see how some of the barmy ideas of McDonnel and Co will be good for the nation's finances. Some of John Mc Donnel's utternaces are being shown on the BBC now and clearly he does not know the size of the nation's debt or the cost of servicing it. His deputy being interviewed by Andrew Neil now is equally clueless.

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Which barmy ideas?

[QUOTE=Rocco Siffredi;4816007]

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

You self righteous throbbing **** . You start a thread like this and expect a reasoned debate . It is pointless trying to reason with you , you have one agenda which is left of left . Go and sing the red flag at Momentum Kenfig Hill meetings and dream of the day Mc Donell presents his first budget and clap and cheer that Britain will be in a better place 🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡

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You are obsessed with bottoms and calling people gay boys

I think that tells me everything I need to know about you

What a charming individual you are

I think you need therapy to sort out these issues

Good luck , I won't be chatting with you again

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Originally Posted by Vindec

The thing which bothers me most about this thread is that so many people are totally one dimensional and cannot think beyond supporting one Political Party. How anyone can reconcile throwing money at everything and taxing business is good for the economy and the country's finances has a screw loose. Once I supported the Labour Party but cannot see how some of the barmy ideas of McDonnel and Co will be good for the nation's finances. Some of John Mc Donnel's utternaces are being shown on the BBC now and clearly he does not know the size of the nation's debt or the cost of servicing it. His deputy being interviewed by Andrew Neil now is equally clueless.

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Well that's your opinion , you clearly don't vote Labour so are naturally going to take the view that the current lot are barmy

My view is we need socialism more than ever as free market capitalism since Thatcher has got us to where we are today .......Blair was Maggie in a suit , that wasn't socialism

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Originally Posted by TISS

Relevant to what? We are discussing your claim that RTB impacted the UK housing stock.

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Thatcher gave massive incentives to council tenants to buy their own properties but ring fenced the money from those sales and prevented councils from using that money to build new houses ........apart from the council's who had plenty of money ......the predominantly tory led ones in the shires .......hence the stock of social housing was directly reduced by the right to buy .......heseltine tried to argue with Thatcher that money from the sales needed to be freed up to build replacement stock but she refused and moved him in a cabinet reshuffle

That's a fact , you may not like it but it's a fact

This really is my last reply to you feedback or whatever your username has changed to now , the evidence of the effect of right to buy on the social housing stock of this country is out there , I have even given you the title of a book written by an expert on social housing policy , there are numerous articles online that back this up , from people working in the social housing sector, if that's not good enough for you then I am wasting my time , in fact I have just wasted two minutes of my life typing this

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well that's your opinion , you clearly don't vote Labour so are naturally going to take the view that the current lot are barmy

My view is we need socialism more than ever as free market capitalism since Thatcher has got us to where we are today .......Blair was Maggie in a suit , that wasn't socialism

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The difference between us is that I am prepared to listen to all sides of an argument and vote accordingly.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

The thing which bothers me most about this thread is that so many people are totally one dimensional and cannot think beyond supporting one Political Party. How anyone can reconcile throwing money at everything and taxing business is good for the economy and the country's finances has a screw loose. Once I supported the Labour Party but cannot see how some of the barmy ideas of McDonnel and Co will be good for the nation's finances. Some of John Mc Donnel's utternaces are being shown on the BBC now and clearly he does not know the size of the nation's debt or the cost of servicing it. His deputy being interviewed by Andrew Neil now is equally clueless.

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current interest on debt is £60bn. I would prefer that to be spent on the NHS, schools, infrastructure rather than giving it to financial institutions. If we reduced the debt and therefore interest payments we would have exceptional public services

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Thatcher gave massive incentives to council tenants to buy their own properties but ring fenced the money from those sales and prevented councils from using that money to build new houses ........apart from the council's who had plenty of money ......the predominantly tory led ones in the shires .......hence the stock of social housing was directly reduced by the right to buy .......heseltine tried to argue with Thatcher that money from the sales needed to be freed up to build replacement stock but she refused and moved him in a cabinet reshuffle

That's a fact , you may not like it but it's a fact

This really is my last reply to you feedback or whatever your username has changed to now , the evidence of the effect of right to buy on the social housing stock of this country is out there , I have even given you the title of a book written by an expert on social housing policy , there are numerous articles online that back this up , from people working in the social housing sector, if that's not good enough for you then I am wasting my time , in fact I have just wasted two minutes of my life typing this

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you appear to confuse total housing stock with social housing stock, the latter being a subset of the former. I have never made any comment about RTB not impacting social housing stock. For want of repeating myself, i have said RTB does not impact total housing stock (how can it possibly impact housing stock when only the legal owners have changed?).

RTB has reduced social housing stock, but it has also reduced the numbers of people needed social housing by the same amount. Therefore whatever demand existed for new social housing before RTB existed after RTB, when all other factors are considered and taken into account.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

Hi Sludge - don want to make a long thread even longer, but when did Housing Associations come into being ? , I thought HA's came into play to replace what was council houses as in some are purely rent while others are 50/50 - so when the house is sold - the HA get 50% of the sale price which is then reused to build more etc.

There is a stigma attached to "council housing" - then gives the young who live there the impression they are second best, I think with the encouragement of housing associations to help the occupants own half the home - at least it gives them some self worth and aspiration for the future, rather than relying on hand outs and the council to paint their home for them etc.

I understand peoples arguments though re there being not as much council housing stock available - but the HA approach seems a preferable halfway solution to me.

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Housing associations were very much favoured by Thatcher as they were seen as less politically labour than the big councils .....further proof that Thatcher's pushing of the right to buy was politically motivated

But housing associations were far too small in number to provide enough social housing to replace that lost to council house sales .........and the Tories are now allowing housing association tenants to buy their homes , further eroding the social housing stock ...... they really are unbelievable ......of course they told the voters that for every housing association property sold they would build a new one , but surprise surprise that hasn't happened

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Originally Posted by Vindec

The difference between us is that I am prepared to listen to all sides of an argument and vote accordingly.

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So you are happy with the fact the Tories came in with the promise of wiping out the deficit in a parliament yet have time and time again put that date back ?

And are borrowing like crazy ?

And the poor and vulnerable are being shafted by continuing austerity

Well I have listened to that side of the arguement and it's not enticing me I am afraid

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

So you are happy with the fact the Tories came in with the promise of wiping out the deficit in a parliament yet have time and time again put that date back ?

And are borrowing like crazy ?

And the poor and vulnerable are being shafted by continuing austerity

Well I have listened to that side of the arguement and it's not enticing me I am afraid

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Do you mean the deficit built up by the former Labour government?

While the overall total of borrowing has increased which is inevitable where there is a deficit. The deficit has been reduced substantially.

How much do you think a Labour government would have to borrow to fund the cancellation of PFI projects, cancellation of student debt, free tuition fees, rail privatisation, increased public sector pay etc etc. Probably around an additional £700bn. And you blame the Tories for excessive borrowing. Are you having a laugh?

You might have a point about the poor and vulnerable but surely increased benefits means even more borrowing which you seem to be concerned about.

I am not expecting you to vote Tory but merely suggest you keep a more open mind.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Which barmy ideas?

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All of them which are soundbite politics triyong to falsely appeal to left leaning nieave voters who don't remeber the day week,what i want as a socialist its so much on increasing debt to stupid levels to rationalise industries, but to think of a new way of funding things like the NHS ie a penny on everyone's tax , charge for uncessary GP visits , apply a dentistry type of treatment charges .

Let Universities manage school budgets instead of councils .

Merge councils to save tax payers uncessary duplication of services.

Let the wealthy pay for thier health including prescriptions in Wales.

Bring in more road an congestion tolls to clean up the cities and fund public transport .

Say no to union demands such as the crazy current rail pay award in the south west.

Say no to immigration unless they arrive for a job we can't fill.

Call for a second referendum on Brexit ,that would probaly get them elected .


Just a few ideas ,much better than copying the old chaos politics of the 70''s

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Originally Posted by Vindec

Do you mean the deficit built up by the former Labour government?

While the overall total of borrowing has increased which is inevitable where there is a deficit. The deficit has been reduced substantially.

How much do you think a Labour government would have to borrow to fund the cancellation of PFI projects, cancellation of student debt, free tuition fees, rail privatisation, increased public sector pay etc etc. Probably around an additional £700bn. And you blame the Tories for excessive borrowing. Are you having a laugh?

You might have a point about the poor and vulnerable but surely increased benefits means even more borrowing which you seem to be concerned about.

I am not expecting you to vote Tory but merely suggest you keep a more open mind.

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I am no fan of the previous labour government , socialist they were not

The Tories are borrowing because their deficit reduction plans have been a disaster , they still haven't got rid of it and I have no doubt it's going to start going back up again

You may not like to hear this but the Tories in opposition backed labours spending plans and the bailing out of the banks to a penny

I voted labour with a heavy heart with Blair , brown and milliband in charge , corbyn however is wakening up socialism in this country and its about time as far as I am concerned

I note you haven't answered my response on borrowing but if you think Labour's socialist agenda will reduce the deficit then the best of luck with that. The sad thing is that Andrew Neil exposed Labour's fragility on borrowing this lunchtime where neither McDonnel or his deputy couldn't even grasp what borrowing means. Your mind is so closed to socialism that I shan't bother to respond anymore to this exchange of views. Life is just too short.

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I note you haven't answered my response on borrowing but if you think Labour's socialist agenda will reduce the deficit then the best of luck with that. The sad thing is that Andrew Neil exposed Labour's fragility on borrowing this lunchtime where neither McDonnel or his deputy couldn't even grasp what borrowing means. Your mind is so closed to socialism that I shan't bother to respond anymore to this exchange of views. Life is just too short.

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I have , it's just you don't like the answer

May is losing her grip , the Tory party is falling apart and the majority of the country have had enough of the Tories

She called an election and it backfired , she is propped up by a bunch of religious zealots and labour will be ready

You take care now

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I have , it's just you don't like the answer

May is losing her grip , the Tory party is falling apart and the majority of the country have had enough of the Tories

She called an election and it backfired , she is propped up by a bunch of religious zealots and labour will be ready

You take care now

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C'mon, Sludge, Corbyn would transform Britain in to Goatfeckistan with even greater enthusiasm than Blair, Brown and Cameron summoned.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I have , it's just you don't like the answer

May is losing her grip , the Tory party is falling apart and the majority of the country have had enough of the Tories

She called an election and it backfired , she is propped up by a bunch of religious zealots and labour will be ready

You take care now

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I know I said I wouldn't come back to you the fact you incorrectly state you have answered my question on borrowing has prompted me to come back.

This is the point you didn't answer:

"How much do you think a Labour government would have to borrow to fund the cancellation of PFI projects, cancellation of student debt, free tuition fees, rail privatisation, increased public sector pay etc etc. Probably around an additional £700bn. And you blame the Tories for excessive borrowing. Are you having a laugh?"

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

So you are happy with the fact the Tories came in with the promise of wiping out the deficit in a parliament yet have time and time again put that date back ?

And are borrowing like crazy ?

And the poor and vulnerable are being shafted by continuing austerity

Well I have listened to that side of the arguement and it's not enticing me I am afraid

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Sludge

The Tories inherited a deficit of 157bn - more than 10% of gdp. Unless they cut the deficit to nil by slashing public services, the debt was always going to rise.

It is true that they failed to reduce the deficit over their first parliament - something like the economy is far to difficult to forecast. However now that the deficit is nearer 2% of GDP and debt being around 80% of GDP, the aim now has to be to bring the debt down with less focus on the deficit.

If true socialism is the answer you have got to ask yourself what in God's name was the question?

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Originally Posted by Vindec

I know I said I wouldn't come back to you the fact you incorrectly state you have answered my question on borrowing has prompted me to come back.

This is the point you didn't answer:

"How much do you think a Labour government would have to borrow to fund the cancellation of PFI projects, cancellation of student debt, free tuition fees, rail privatisation, increased public sector pay etc etc. Probably around an additional £700bn. And you blame the Tories for excessive borrowing. Are you having a laugh?"

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We can borrow , all this run on the pound , the markets will crash crap is just that , right wing press hysteria .......the Tories are hypocrites .....saying borrowing is wrong yet borrowing .......it either is or it isn't ........we built the NHS , council housing and public services when we were massively in debt after the second world war , we need to do it again

Andrew Neill is about as impartial as ghengis khan

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

We can borrow , all this run on the pound , the markets will crash crap is just that , right wing press hysteria .......the Tories are hypocrites .....saying borrowing is wrong yet borrowing .......it either is or it isn't ........we built the NHS , council housing and public services when we were massively in debt after the second world war , we need to do it again

Andrew Neill is about as impartial as ghengis khan

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I could have sworn it was John McDonnell himself that said that Labour were preparing for a run on the pound if they ever came to power, rather than the right wing press???

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Originally Posted by TISS

Sludge

The Tories inherited a deficit of 157bn - more than 10% of gdp. Unless they cut the deficit to nil by slashing public services, the debt was always going to rise.

It is true that they failed to reduce the deficit over their first parliament - something like the economy is far to difficult to forecast. However now that the deficit is nearer 2% of GDP and debt being around 80% of GDP, the aim now has to be to bring the debt down with less focus on the deficit.

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They have slashed public services and the debt has risen , we have had seven years of austerity and it hasn't worked , the police , NHS staff etc are nearing the brunt of fiscal conservatism and it isn't working

It's never worked

[QUOTE=Nick;4816193]I could have sworn it was John McDonnell himself that said that Labour were preparing for a run on the pound if they ever came to power, rather than the right wing press???[/QUOTE

The right wing Tory controlled media have been shoving this story down gullible people's throats since the conservatives got elected

Daily mail , telegraph , express , times , the sun , sky news , ITN

[QUOTE=SLUDGE FACTORY;4816199]

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Originally Posted by Nick

I could have sworn it was John McDonnell himself that said that Labour were preparing for a run on the pound if they ever came to power, rather than the right wing press???[/QUOTE

The right wing Tory controlled media have been shoving this story down gullible people's throats since the conservatives got elected

Daily mail , telegraph , express , times , the sun , sky news , ITN

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It wasn't a story it was a direct quote from McDonnell, your shadow chancellor

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Originally Posted by Nick

I could have sworn it was John McDonnell himself that said that Labour were preparing for a run on the pound if they ever came to power, rather than the right wing press???

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What if there is a run on the pound? What happens if there is this concept of capital flight? I don't think there will be, but you never know, so we've got to scenario plan for that

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That's what he said. Why are people too thick to google something before stating it as a fact?

Right wing media spun being prepared for all eventualities as a bad thing and the selfish simpletons such as yourself lapped it up as usual.

[QUOTE=Nick;4816202]

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It wasn't a story it was a direct quote from McDonnell, your shadow chancellor

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Oh no it wasn't

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

We can borrow , all this run on the pound , the markets will crash crap is just that , right wing press hysteria .......the Tories are hypocrites .....saying borrowing is wrong yet borrowing .......it either is or it isn't ........we built the NHS , council housing and public services when we were massively in debt after the second world war , we need to do it again

Andrew Neill is about as impartial as ghengis khan

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That's true. UK debt to GDP, 1946 - 243%. UK debt to GDP, 2017 - 86%. Those that worship at the altar of austerity pretend not to know.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

All of them which are soundbite politics triyong to falsely appeal to left leaning nieave voters who don't remeber the day week,what i want as a socialist its so much on increasing debt to stupid levels to rationalise industries, but to think of a new way of funding things like the NHS ie a penny on everyone's tax , charge for uncessary GP visits , apply a dentistry type of treatment charges .

Let Universities manage school budgets instead of councils .

Merge councils to save tax payers uncessary duplication of services.

Let the wealthy pay for thier health including prescriptions in Wales.

Bring in more road an congestion tolls to clean up the cities and fund public transport .

Say no to union demands such as the crazy current rail pay award in the south west.

Say no to immigration unless they arrive for a job we can't fill.

Call for a second referendum on Brexit ,that would probaly get them elected .


Just a few ideas ,much better than copying the old chaos politics of the 70''s

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I'll try again, which barmy ideas? If you want a new different politics, maybe start by answering the question.

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Originally Posted by ninianclark

I always thought Corbyn should have campaigned at the last General Election on a ONE ticket issue - that of a second referendum.

If people wanted out of the EU abstain or vote Tory, want remain then vote Lib Dem or Labour - at least that way i t should deliver a Govt that has a clear mandate to A. Govern the UK and B. Brexit

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So we ignore schools, health, police and the rest for a whole term?

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Originally Posted by TISS

Sludge

The Tories inherited a deficit of 157bn - more than 10% of gdp. Unless they cut the deficit to nil by slashing public services, the debt was always going to rise.

It is true that they failed to reduce the deficit over their first parliament - something like the economy is far to difficult to forecast. However now that the deficit is nearer 2% of GDP and debt being around 80% of GDP, the aim now has to be to bring the debt down with less focus on the deficit.

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And for that we rely on economic growth, which is forecast to be practically non-existent.

I know you get this levelled at you a lot but it does feel like they can do no wrong.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

They have slashed public services and the debt has risen , we have had seven years of austerity and it hasn't worked , the police , NHS staff etc are nearing the brunt of fiscal conservatism and it isn't working

It's never worked

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The debtvwas always going to rise. I thought everyone knew the debt would carry on rising as long as we had a deficit. Perhaps you can share this new branch of arithmetic where you can have a deficit whilst reducing the debt at the same time?

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

That's what he said. Why are people too thick to google something before stating it as a fact?

Right wing media spun being prepared for all eventualities as a bad thing and the selfish simpletons such as yourself lapped it up as usual.

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McDonnell was on R4 Today being interviewed when he said it. He definitely said Labour had war games where they planned a run on the pound.

He was being interviewed by Nick Robinson

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Originally Posted by Organ Morgan.

That's true. UK debt to GDP, 1946 - 243%. UK debt to GDP, 2017 - 86%. Those that worship at the altar of austerity pretend not to know.

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Honestly, the UK had just fought a costly and bloody war. The two are very different circumstances

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

And for that we rely on economic growth, which is forecast to be practically non-existent.

I know you get this levelled at you a lot but it does feel like they can do no wrong.

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Who? The Tories?

They get plenty wrong. Europe for a start. They also misjudged the proper implementation of universal credit, tax simplification has turned into a dogs dinner.

I don't have much time for the Tories.

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Originally Posted by TISS

McDonnell was on R4 Today being interviewed when he said it. He definitely said Labour had war games where they planned a run on the pound.

He was being interviewed by Nick Robinson

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Funny it hasn't been mentioned on one website or twitter even once today then. Seems pretty unual, anyone would think you were chatting utter bollocks.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Funny it hasn't been mentioned on one website or twitter even once today then. Seems pretty unual, anyone would think you were chatting utter bollocks.

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It was about 3 or 4 weeks ago.

My bad, it was more like 8 or 9 weeks ago

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b095psnx

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Originally Posted by TISS

It was about 3 or 4 weeks ago.

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Hasn't been mentioned once online since September and you said he was being interviewed today by Nick Robinson in your previous post.

So not only will you swallow any pro Tory rhetoric in the media you'll even invent some to try and get the blue side to win in an argument. Go for a sit down pal.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Hasn't been mentioned once online since September and you said he was being interviewed today by Nick Robinson in your previous post.

So not only will you swallow any pro Tory rhetoric in the media you'll even invent some to try and get the blue side to win in an argument. Go for a sit down pal.

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When someone uses the phrase “my bad” you know they are talking a load of old bollox

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Hasn't been mentioned once online since September and you said he was being interviewed today by Nick Robinson in your previous post.

So not only will you swallow any pro Tory rhetoric in the media you'll even invent some to try and get the blue side to win in an argument. Go for a sit down pal.

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Oh FFS he was being interviewed on R4's Today programme. If you listened to R4 (as I do every day) you will know the programme between 6-9am is called 'Today'.

I've even linked to the interview.

For the record, I have not swallowed anything. I am reporting the facts that Nick Robinson interviewed John McDonnell and what was discussed. John McDonnell discussed many things, mainly about Brexit and the car crash this government is overseeing, along with the various 'war games' scenarios (a run on the pound being one of them) that Labour high command had discussed

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Originally Posted by Auntie Andy

When someone uses the phrase “my bad” you know they are talking a load of old bollox

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Not really. My bad is a turn of phrase.

I've already linked to the John McDonnell today interview. Try listening to it