Stay in the EU petition

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

It isn't just about what they are stopping us doing, its about having some other authority that has powers to prevent our government enacting laws for our people and having last say in our national affairs at different levels. what laws are they stopping us enacting


I do not like the fact that some foreign judges, some if not all of whom are political appointees can overrule judgements handed down in british courts by british judges to and for british people. what judgements have been over ruled

I don't like that fact that the common agricultural policy is in serious need of review but it never happens because the french are held to ransom by their farmers and veto changes. fair point

I do not like the fact that France subsidises its major companies contrary to EU policy and no one stops them. fair point

I do not like the fact that we put more money into the EU that we take out not true, plus the benefits we get on trading etc are worth it

and we are subsidisiing countries that cannot or will not run their economies within manageable figures, like Italy and Greece.. not true

Whilst on the subject, if we contribute more than we take out how can it be categorically untrue that they are just giving us our own money beck? it is untrue

I don't like how the fishing regulations favours spanish ships fishing in our waters and that they have a bigger say in the policy because they eat a lot of fish. that won’t be any better when we are out though

I do not like the way that EU countries ignore the law that says refugeees must be registered for asylum in the first country they enter, and allow them to just cross the whole of Europe to get to UK. And the EU takes no action against them for doing it. In fact they tried to penalise Italy when as a Sovereign state they prevented refugee ships from docking. so you don’t like it when they don’t register in the first country but also don’t like it when they punish a country when they’re the first country

Hungary (I think it was) had to build a fence to keep them out because other countries weren't acting on the first country rule and they got into trouble with the EU for their actions to protect, as they saw it, their own country. Hungary built a fence because they have a far right government

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There’s still not one tangible benefit of leaving in that. No one is saying the EU is perfect, in fact they do need big reforms. But the current U.K. government aren’t any better.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

There’s still not one tangible benefit of leaving in that. No one is saying the EU is perfect, in fact they do need big reforms. But the current U.K. government aren’t any better.

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I don't think I mentioned anywhere in that that the things I was mentioning were benefit or getting out of them was. What may or may not be a benefit is subjective and if anyone says X is a benefit someone else can say its not, so if anyone says something is a benefit you can find something that appears to disprove it.
What I listed are SOME of the things I don't like about the EU. There are more. There are also many people who think the same way.

With regard to opinion polls saying 63% now favour remaining means nothing. You only have to look at polls for the last referendum and the last several elections to see the value of them.

My understanding regarding referenda was always that for a thing to change 50% of the #Eligible@ vote had to vote for it, in other words half the people on the electoral roll plus 1. Any non vote being classed as a vote to maintain the status quo.
Tony Blair was the person who first changed the rules in order to get the result he promised to welsh labour on devolution. That was even narrower than this referendum but no one shouted for a re-vote, even though it resulted in our being governed by people elected by about 12% of the population, and tiers of government which cost a fortune.

Im talking tangible benefits though, there are so many people in this country deep in poverty, there are people working full time jobs and still starving, homelessness has increased massively, violent crime is up. Austerity has killed this country and we are forcing ourselves towards another financial crash. Is Brexit worth that, because of some imagined statistics and “dodgy” politicians?!

This is purely the negatives without even looking at the fact we are taking away the chances of all but the richest of our children having the chance to study or work abroad and the chance of retired brits to move abroad.

I really hope we make a success of brexit but the way it’s been negotiated there’s nothing left but a negative **** up which could have been avoided by sensible negotiating.

Whatever people voted for they didn’t vote for this.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Im talking tangible benefits though, there are so many people in this country deep in poverty, there are people working full time jobs and still starving, homelessness has increased massively, violent crime is up. Austerity has killed this country and we are forcing ourselves towards another financial crash. Is Brexit worth that, because of some imagined statistics and “dodgy” politicians?!

This is purely the negatives without even looking at the fact we are taking away the chances of all but the richest of our children having the chance to study or work abroad and the chance of retired brits to move abroad.

I really hope we make a success of brexit but the way it’s been negotiated there’s nothing left but a negative **** up which could have been avoided by sensible negotiating.

Whatever people voted for they didn’t vote for this.

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While I appreciate what you say there is no way that anyone can say negotiated differently we would have got a better deal, or that we ever will. The EU is a protectionist bloc and would always seek to drive the hardest possible bargain. They would do everything in their power to prevent it completely if they can. The only reason they are helping now is because they know a no-deal exit will hurt them as much as us, and nation states like Germany are beginning to grasp how much it will hurt their economies.

I believe the EU don't want us to leave because if we kept a successful economy, or even improve, then it will encourage other countries to consider an opt out, ( Greece? Italy? Germany? Holland?)and that will destroy the dream, which is now admitted is a federal europe, a political end-game, which previously was never admitted. We joined a common market for our goods, and that is the way it should have stayed.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

While I appreciate what you say there is no way that anyone can say negotiated differently we would have got a better deal, or that we ever will. The EU is a protectionist bloc and would always seek to drive the hardest possible bargain. They would do everything in their power to prevent it completely if they can. The only reason they are helping now is because they know a no-deal exit will hurt them as much as us, and nation states like Germany are beginning to grasp how much it will hurt their economies.

I believe the EU don't want us to leave because if we kept a successful economy, or even improve, then it will encourage other countries to consider an opt out, ( Greece? Italy? Germany? Holland?)and that will destroy the dream, which is now admitted is a federal europe, a political end-game, which previously was never admitted. We joined a common market for our goods, and that is the way it should have stayed.

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It's certainly in the EU's interests to avoid no deal. They would suffer because of it.

But to suggest a country like Germany would be hurt just as much as the UK is insane. The majority of citizens of other EU countries, with the exception of Ireland, won't notice much difference to their actual day to day lives.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

Especially being that enough of those who voted leave have died of old age and enough young people who it actually will affect for the rest of their lives have come of voting age to completely overturn the result

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Result would be the same.

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Result would be the same.

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I accept opinion poll companies have not had a good few years, but this says different and it's notable how stable the figures have stayed in the past year or so.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-...poll-of-polls/

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I accept opinion poll companies have not had a good few years, but this says different and it's notable how stable the figures have stayed in the past year or so.

https://whatukthinks.org/eu/opinion-...poll-of-polls/

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I have a feeling a second referendum would really play into the whole “sovereignty” angle that’s been getting played and we’d see a sway towards leave again.

Its coming home, its coming home - no deal will surely lead to the break up of the UK state and no deal is now the expected outcome of some of the so called experts.
Could it happen ?

Mays deal [MV3] will be voted down - basically everyone thinks that at this stage, then its no deal v's revoke and May and lots of her Government are thought to favour no deal as the people voted for Brexit, the people did not vote to stay, so no deal is the conclusion.

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Originally Posted by lardy

It's certainly in the EU's interests to avoid no deal. They would suffer because of it.

But to suggest a country like Germany would be hurt just as much as the UK is insane. The majority of citizens of other EU countries, with the exception of Ireland, won't notice much difference to their actual day to day lives.

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Indeed. Not sure why some can't (or won't) get their head around this. It's simple maths.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46612362

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Originally Posted by lardy

It's certainly in the EU's interests to avoid no deal. They would suffer because of it.

But to suggest a country like Germany would be hurt just as much as the UK is insane. The majority of citizens of other EU countries, with the exception of Ireland, won't notice much difference to their actual day to day lives.

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I think I said the EU would be hurt as much. But Germany would be hurt. Her car industry does huge business with UK which would suffer, and the germans are closer to us than any other european nation historically despite 2 wars. The German press and politicians have siad it would hurt the German economy and whre as we would be free to set up new trade deals to fill the gap ( Whetheer we do ro not is a different question) they would still be inside the EU and see the loss of our trade as permanent.

The EU can try and convince and point the UK into a certain direction but they have no control over the UK leaving as they cant stop the UK from leaving and the UK people have voted to leave, the political classes both here and in Europe don't like it and are trying various tactics but as things stand we are still leaving.

I don't think Sovereignty is " an angle being played". It is something that many people genuinely believe is important and have done for thousands of years. A few years (in evolution terms) of collective decision making will never erase that.
It is that desire for sovereignty and self determination that will acheive another leave vote despite all the economic factors screaming remain.
Another thing that will secure another leave vote is people, many like me who originally voted remain, voting leave to punish the politicians for seeking to ignore the will of the people. You'd think by now that they would have learned from history that any politician who treats the great British public with contempt is a fool.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I have a feeling a second referendum would really play into the whole “sovereignty” angle that’s been getting played and we’d see a sway towards leave again.

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I wouldn't argue too much with that, but I would say that neither side could get away with running the sort of campaign they did back in 2016 now.

I always said that although it's impossible to pin the whole debate down to one subject, immigration was the issue that people wanted to talk about most in the run up to the vote and yet one of the mysteries of the two and three quarter years since then is how little it has been mentioned (apparently, the figures show that any decrease in EU immigration has been offset by a rise from other countries). Would immigration become the issue it was again if there was another Referendum? I think that, tactically, it would be a subject that the Leave campaign would be happy to bring up again.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

The EU can try and convince and point the UK into a certain direction but they have no control over the UK leaving as they cant stop the UK from leaving and the UK people have voted to leave, the political classes both here and in Europe don't like it and are trying various tactics but as things stand we are still leaving.

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The political classes are the ones who want to leave. Farage, Rees Mogg, Johnson, May, Williamson, Francois, Davies, Gove, Leadsom all want leave.

How can anyone believe this is anything but the work of the elite political class?!

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Originally Posted by trampie09

Mays deal [MV3] will be voted down - basically everyone thinks that at this stage, then its no deal v's revoke and May and lots of her Government are thought to favour no deal as the people voted for Brexit, the people did not vote to stay, so no deal is the conclusion.

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So you’ve voted for a blow job

Yes

Ok this fat man from pontypool is going to do it

Wait no

You voted for a blow job and you’re getting a blow job

Blow job means blow job!

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I don't think Sovereignty is " an angle being played". It is something that many people genuinely believe is important and have done for thousands of years. A few years (in evolution terms) of collective decision making will never erase that.
It is that desire for sovereignty and self determination that will acheive another leave vote despite all the economic factors screaming remain.
Another thing that will secure another leave vote is people, many like me who originally voted remain, voting leave to punish the politicians for seeking to ignore the will of the people. You'd think by now that they would have learned from history that any politician who treats the great British public with contempt is a fool.

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I know that the majority of MPs are/were remainers, but what evidence is there to suggest that there is a majority in Parliament who want to hijack Brexit so we can stay in the EU? I know the Labour party abstained thereby distorting the figures, but the vote for a second Referendum was defeated by a margin on a par with those by which May's deal has twice been defeated.

All the evidence so far suggests that MPs are decisively against May's deal, but it doesn't follow that they are because they don't want Brexit under any circumstances. The EU has given Parliament the opportunity to come up with an alternative Brexit arrangement if May's deal is defeated for a third time and if that happens and Parliament is still tying itself up in knots come 12 April because it cannot agree on anything, then I would agree that you would have to question the motivation of many who sit in the House of Commons, but I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt for now at least.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

The political classes are the ones who want to leave. Farage, Rees Mogg, Johnson, May, Williamson, Francois, Davies, Gove, Leadsom all want leave.

How can anyone believe this is anything but the work of the elite political class?!

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I’ll leave it to the board to decide if these headfund managers and disaster capitalists who were privately educated thanks to their rich parents estates have the best interests of the country at heart.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I don't think Sovereignty is " an angle being played". It is something that many people genuinely believe is important and have done for thousands of years. A few years (in evolution terms) of collective decision making will never erase that.
It is that desire for sovereignty and self determination that will acheive another leave vote despite all the economic factors screaming remain.
Another thing that will secure another leave vote is people, many like me who originally voted remain, voting leave to punish the politicians for seeking to ignore the will of the people. You'd think by now that they would have learned from history that any politician who treats the great British public with contempt is a fool.

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It’s an angle because we have sovereignty and the last few months had proved that.

You’re just parroting all the rubbish the murdoch media have fed you, you’ve been completely done.

No one doesn’t want sovereignty the point is we have it and it’s being used as an angle to get votes from people who won’t look past a headline.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I don't think Sovereignty is " an angle being played". It is something that many people genuinely believe is important and have done for thousands of years. A few years (in evolution terms) of collective decision making will never erase that.
It is that desire for sovereignty and self determination that will acheive another leave vote despite all the economic factors screaming remain.
Another thing that will secure another leave vote is people, many like me who originally voted remain, voting leave to punish the politicians for seeking to ignore the will of the people. You'd think by now that they would have learned from history that any politician who treats the great British public with contempt is a fool.

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I’m sorry mate but this is like Im reading a direct propaganda output from the right wing press.

We have sovereignty and always have, why do you think we aren’t in the Euro? Why do you think our parliament has been able to do what it’s done in the last few months.

So the only benefit you’ve been able to highlight is something we already have.

Obviously democracy and sovereignty is important, no one is voting that away, but the point is we already have it and it’s clear to see from the way our government has operated for the last 20 years.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

The EU can try and convince and point the UK into a certain direction but they have no control over the UK leaving as they cant stop the UK from leaving and the UK people have voted to leave, the political classes both here and in Europe don't like it and are trying various tactics but as things stand we are still leaving.

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It's so easy to attack what people perceive as the elite members of society but some of us are just workers ants who do not influence the economy and I, for one, do put a bit of store in statements made from bodies such as the CBI, which states:

"The impacts of a no deal are vast and will impact every region and nation of the UK. From the South West of England, to the North East of Scotland, businesses are telling us a no deal would be a disaster for the UK economy, for businesses and for individual livelihoods."

Happy to read any other statements for and against, of course (and there will be statements against). We need more than knee-jerk prejudices, sweeping statements and anecdotes to inform us if we are open-minded people. The economy cannot be sustained by slogans.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I’ll leave it to the board to decide if these headfund managers and disaster capitalists who were privately educated thanks to their rich parents estates have the best interests of the country at heart.

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Croesy, there are times when I think you're reading my mind.

Brexit hasn't been instigated by the average citizen, it hasn't been instigated to benefit the average citizen, it's all about how those with money can make even more money. Following the last recession many people are only just about getting back to their feet, even a light but sustained negative impact on the economy will result in many people losing their jobs, their business, their properties, this will then allow those with the means to buy up even more land, property, and businesses on the cheap. The knock on effect, with respect to workers, is that we will see an increase in things like zero hours contracts, a decrease in the minimum wage, and a decrease in workers rights - people will be desperate to do any work for minimum wage to try to keep themselves and their families fed and with a roof over their heads. We will head back to feudalism and serfdom. I would hazard a bet that Jacob Rees-Mogg would like to see the return of workhouses as well.

A reminder:

DEMOCRACY
Breaking the law in a referendum
Refusing to allow Parliament a say
Lying to Parliament
Trying to turn people against MPs
Insisting on a 3-year old result based on lies that no longer holds a majority

NOT DEMOCRACY
Allowing people to vote on their future


From David Schneider on twitter.com

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

It's so easy to attack what people perceive as the elite members of society but some of us are just workers ants who do not influence the economy and I, for one, do put a bit of store in statements made from bodies such as the CBI, which states:

"The impacts of a no deal are vast and will impact every region and nation of the UK. From the South West of England, to the North East of Scotland, businesses are telling us a no deal would be a disaster for the UK economy, for businesses and for individual livelihoods."

Happy to read any other statements for and against, of course (and there will be statements against). We need more than knee-jerk prejudices, sweeping statements and anecdotes to inform us if we are open-minded people. The economy cannot be sustained by slogans.

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The Lancet has published a paper using the available legal and political texts on four Brexit scenarios to access their likely impact on our health service. "All forms of Brexit involve negative consequences for the UK's leadership and governance of health, in both Europe and globally, with questions about the ability of parliament and other stakeholders to scrutinise and oversee government actions."

'However, by far the worst option would be a No-Deal Brexit. The Withdrawal Agreement is likely to have many adverse consequences but will also allow much to remain as it is until December, 2020. The impact of the backstop is likely to be uneven, effectively enabling continuity in some areas (in particular for medical products, vaccines, and technology), but producing a negative impact in most other areas." The B.M.A. has also warned that a no-deal would be potentially catastrophic.

The cost of Brexit has already hit the U.K. economy to the tune of £40 billion pounds (and rising). The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development has warned that leaving with no deal would plunge the economy into recession.

But we've had enough of experts, haven't we? Why should we listen to specialists in the field of health care and economics? So many people on social media give such cogent, coherent and well-informed reasons to crash out. Where is the evidence to convince us that leaving would be an all singing all dancing wonderful experience.

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Originally Posted by Auntie Andy

The Lancet has published a paper using the available legal and political texts on four Brexit scenarios to access their likely impact on our health service. "All forms of Brexit involve negative consequences for the UK's leadership and governance of health, in both Europe and globally, with questions about the ability of parliament and other stakeholders to scrutinise and oversee government actions."

'However, by far the worst option would be a No-Deal Brexit. The Withdrawal Agreement is likely to have many adverse consequences but will also allow much to remain as it is until December, 2020. The impact of the backstop is likely to be uneven, effectively enabling continuity in some areas (in particular for medical products, vaccines, and technology), but producing a negative impact in most other areas." The B.M.A. has also warned that a no-deal would be potentially catastrophic.

The cost of Brexit has already hit the U.K. economy to the tune of £40 billion pounds (and rising). The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development has warned that leaving with no deal would plunge the economy into recession.

But we've had enough of experts, haven't we? Why should we listen to specialists in the field of health care and economics? So many people on social media give such cogent, coherent and well-informed reasons to crash out. Where is the evidence to convince us that leaving would be an all singing all dancing wonderful experience.

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My brother has already been struggling to get enough epilepsy medicine for several months now

I was against having a referendum in the first place. My view has always been if you have got issues with someone you are better of arguing constructively rather than stomping off in a rage.
I also agree with the point made above that Brexit suits certain people, certain fund managers who have already made a shit load of money on it already. Does anyone recall Farage'so concession speech around 12am on Brexit night. It was very strange as results were already starting to trickle in suggesting Brexit may be a lot closer than thought.That simple statement made certain people loads of dosh within minutes.

Sometimes you have to save people from themselves.
The UK is skint.
£2 trillion national debt,
The last banking crisis cost the UK taxpayer £27 billion.
A run on the banks the morning after a no deal would cost the taxpayer a hell of a lot more.
the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

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Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie

It's so easy to attack what people perceive as the elite members of society but some of us are just workers ants who do not influence the economy and I, for one, do put a bit of store in statements made from bodies such as the CBI, which states:

"The impacts of a no deal are vast and will impact every region and nation of the UK. From the South West of England, to the North East of Scotland, businesses are telling us a no deal would be a disaster for the UK economy, for businesses and for individual livelihoods."

Happy to read any other statements for and against, of course (and there will be statements against). We need more than knee-jerk prejudices, sweeping statements and anecdotes to inform us if we are open-minded people. The economy cannot be sustained by slogans.

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It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the implications for the UK state if no deal happens.

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Originally Posted by dandywarhol

Sometimes you have to save people from themselves.
The UK is skint.
£2 trillion national debt,
The last banking crisis cost the UK taxpayer £27 billion.
A run on the banks the morning after a no deal would cost the taxpayer a hell of a lot more.
the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

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You know that the likes of Rees mogg, farage, and banks will do rather nicely out if it though.

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Originally Posted by rs3100

Croesy, there are times when I think you're reading my mind.

Brexit hasn't been instigated by the average citizen, it hasn't been instigated to benefit the average citizen, it's all about how those with money can make even more money. Following the last recession many people are only just about getting back to their feet, even a light but sustained negative impact on the economy will result in many people losing their jobs, their business, their properties, this will then allow those with the means to buy up even more land, property, and businesses on the cheap. The knock on effect, with respect to workers, is that we will see an increase in things like zero hours contracts, a decrease in the minimum wage, and a decrease in workers rights - people will be desperate to do any work for minimum wage to try to keep themselves and their families fed and with a roof over their heads. We will head back to feudalism and serfdom. I would hazard a bet that Jacob Rees-Mogg would like to see the return of workhouses as well.

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Well put. The problem is it’s been sold to the average citizen as a benefit and you can’t really blame people for believing it.

The people who voted for it will be the hardest hit and it’s a disgrace that farage etc won’t just no be accountable but will be stinking rich because of it.

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Originally Posted by Rjk

You know that the likes of Rees mogg, farage, and banks will do rather nicely out if it though.

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William Rees-Mogg literally wrote the books on it:

Blood in the Streets: Investment Profits in a World Gone Mad

The Sovereign Individual: The Coming Economic Revolution: how to Survive and Prosper in it

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Originally Posted by Rjk

You know that the likes of Rees mogg, farage, and banks will do rather nicely out if it though.

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Rees Mogg’s hedgefund that for some reason has been moved to Dublin has made him personally £7 million profit since the referendum.

7 pages in and the only benefit anyone has given is something we already have and people have spent all year moaning at parliament because of.

People voted for sovereignty and are now crying about parliament because of it.

2.94 million signatories. Government can "consider" the petition and then just ignore it, if it so desires. It will be interesting to see what Bercow does in terms of MV3 and whether the petition is effective in any way.
Reminds me of the end of LOTR3..."we're going, were on our way, hang on a minute, yes we are going" 30 minutes later. Only in this case It's more like 3 years.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

7 pages in and the only benefit anyone has given is something we already have and people have spent all year moaning at parliament because of.

People voted for sovereignty and are now crying about parliament because of it.

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Far be it for me to back either side in this debate Croesy but the benefit they claimed was the UK state paid more into the EU than it got back therefore the UK state would be better off out and keeping that money.
As a Welsh boyo I recognise what is good for the UK state is not always good for Wales and likewise what is good for Wales is not always good for the UK state.
Wales was a net beneficiary of the EU but apparently the opposite was true of UK plc [according to leavers] therefore for Wales to benefit the UK state needs to give a portion of the money it used to give the EU to Wales to make Wales better off within the UK minus the EU than what we were in the UK but within the EU.
Of course everyone knows that the UK Government will not make up the shortfall of lost Welsh EU money, in a properly functioning state we should get the money as a proper functioning state would divert funds and resources to parts of its state that needs it, but London and the South East get everything in the UK and even just looking at Wales Cardiff and the South East get everything within Wales such is the crazy for City states.

But putting it down to money in versus money out is wrong the way to look at it. We are paying for net benefits and we make more than what we pay in back.

Why do you think the U.K. have been happy to pay to be EU members?

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Originally Posted by trampie09

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work out the implications for the UK state if no deal happens.

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Aha, the old rocket scientist maxim. Clears it all up then.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

But putting it down to money in versus money out is wrong the way to look at it. We are paying for net benefits and we make more than what we pay in back.

Why do you think the U.K. have been happy to pay to be EU members?

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I don't know why you say money in versus money out is not the correct way to look at it, some people did look at it like that and came to a different conclusion to you and they weren't happy to pay to be EU members and voted accordingly.

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Originally Posted by trampie09

I don't know why you say money in versus money out is not the correct way to look at it, some people did look at it like that and came to a different conclusion to you and they weren't happy to pay to be EU members and voted accordingly.

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It is wrong though because it’s ignoring what we pay that money for.

It’s ignoring the cheaper and easier trading we get, it’s ignoring the end access to medical research we get, it’s ignoring the access to confidential information we get, it’s ignoring the access to criminal and terrorist data we get, it’s ignoring the fact British people can travel easier through the eu, it’s ignoring the ability to move to Spain or France when you retire without any issues.

It’s like me saying you shouldn’t pay £300 for a season ticket because all you get back is a plastic card.

The net gain the U.K. get in terms of EU spend will be dwarfed by the amount of money we lose in not being in the trading bloc. Ergo it isn’t a benefit.