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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
It isn't even comparable.
Are you really suggesting that say the netherlands are as much controlled by the EU as we are by Westminster?
its all relative. We have devolution to decide matters than are more local in nature, and we have decisions made by Westminster that are more national in nature. and we had the EU for matters that were pan European.
The Netherlands is sovereign, but many of its laws are based on directives and regulations from the EU, however it is up to the Dutch people on how they implement them.
so in answer to your question, it depends.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
You asked how inward investment would occur. I proffered a solution.
You've now changed tack with some vague statement about "independence".
you offered nothing of the sort. How do you propose we cut the fiscal gap whilst competing with the Irish? We have to compete against the Irish as we are sure as hell ain't going toe to toe with the English.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
What benefits? As things stand Wales can join with Scotland in some decisions and form a united front. On our own it will be Wales vs England and England will have total control once they've got rid of the Senedd. With less to fight against, the Barnett formula will be replaced by something which makes Wales worse off.
Exactly. We have a Westminster government that will break international law. I'm not too keen on a handshake agreement with any of them. Preserving the Senedd and receiving greater control is essential.
Just to say, none of this is anti-English or anti anybody. This is about Westminster and contrived parliamentary majorities (no matter what political party).
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
You're basically giving the reasons why the UK leaving the EU is such folly, but here's my response.
Free trade with hundreds of millions. Freedom to live, work and study in Europe. I reckon that, whatever we lost on financially from Westminster would be more than made up in EU grants to improve infrastructure and make Wales a better place to do business and create jobs. Instead of an insular island that thinks it is a world leader, we'd be a part of something much bigger.
If there was independence, I reckon it wouldn't be a hard independence like some want for the UK from the EU. I think that if Wales and Scotland were both independent and were members of the EU, England would have to rethink its relationship with the EU. However, there would be something quite poetic about English people needing visas to come and live, work and holiday in Wales!
I don't disagree with the bit in bold, its why we should have remained in the EU. However, taking on board the hard Brexit we are about to experience, all the reasons given for the UK to stay in the EU (free market at its door, freedom of movement with its largest trading partner) would then apply to Wales if we were to leave the UK.
Whether you like it or not, our largest trading partner by far is England, and if England is outside of the EU then the benefits of remaining, for Wales at least, would be tiny compared to being part of the UK. If we joined the EU for free trade, we'd have tariffs, customs, duties and excise on any trade with England. Are we really advocating going into a trade war with the English - lets remember, what we export is miniscule from their point of view.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
You're surely not serious. Look up the size of the EU single market and compare with England.
That's one of the silliest comments you've made thus far.
our largest trading partner is England, by a country mile. you'd swap free trade with England for free trade with the EU. you're a ****ing moron, there's no other way to say it and I apologise in advance for saying it.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
You're basically giving the reasons why the UK leaving the EU is such folly, but here's my response.
Free trade with hundreds of millions. Freedom to live, work and study in Europe. I reckon that, whatever we lost on financially from Westminster would be more than made up in EU grants to improve infrastructure and make Wales a better place to do business and create jobs. Instead of an insular island that thinks it is a world leader, we'd be a part of something much bigger.
If there was independence, I reckon it wouldn't be a hard independence like some want for the UK from the EU. I think that if Wales and Scotland were both independent and were members of the EU, England would have to rethink its relationship with the EU. However, there would be something quite poetic about English people needing visas to come and live, work and holiday in Wales!
So this! :thumbup:
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
I used to be a very strong nationalist, Welsh and nothing, as i left school i would go on pro-wales marches, my dream was a independent Wales, the FWA and MAC were inspirational to a young blue matt, fighting for our freedom, I then met a few gogs on a march, had a few beers and they really didnt like anyone from South Wales, I was welsh through and through , but to these gogs i was almost English, afterall i was from Barry, it was a eye opener for me
I then put my welshness into folliowing cardiff and wales, that was enough for me, i voted PC, job done, as welsh as welsh can be
I then met some girl on holiday, she was from Cheltenham ( so from the evil empire ) she way out of my league so i ignored the fact that she wasnt welsh, I then began to realise that it was all rather stupid, Welsh or English, it makes no difference, look at the current issue with Andy Burnham ( the great north / south divide ), Someone somewhere will decide they are hard done by by someone else, it is always someone else's fault,
I then moved down here ( near Bath ) and not many English dislike the Welsh, when we were doing well in Euro16, alot of English were supporting the Welsh, Wales is alot of people down here 2nd team, they want us to do well, afterall they are our neighbours
You can be Welsh and still British, the English are not really the evil empire
I've yet to meet any English man or woman who harbours this mythical dislike of the Welsh. In fact, a lot of the English I speak to love Wales and its people.
the dislike is a one way street, they really only like to beat us a rugby, and then only the southerners.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
az city
I actually think small nations in the EU do better than Wales does vis-a-vis England. For instance, if Wales voted for a socialist government that's what it would get not a Tory one 150 miles away. Small nations are also over-represented in EU decision-making bodies.
Wales has been a one party socialist state for 20+ years and we are falling further and further behind.
What happens if Cardiff votes for a Lib-dem government but Wales votes Labour - should Cardiff seek independence as well?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
our largest trading partner is England, by a country mile. you'd swap free trade with England for free trade with the EU. you're a ****ing moron, there's no other way to say it and I apologise in advance for saying it.
Ad hominum. You've just lost all credibility and proven that you can't debate or are even worthy of any more time and energy on this thread.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
What benefits? As things stand Wales can join with Scotland in some decisions and form a united front. On our own it will be Wales vs England and England will have total control once they've got rid of the Senedd. With less to fight against, the Barnett formula will be replaced by something which makes Wales worse off.
unlike Scotland and most certainly Northern Ireland, Welsh parties have typically been Welsh flavours of the same UK party e.g. tory, lib-dem, Labour.
I've never seen England v Wales v Scotland in Westminster. I'm not saying it does not happen, but UK politics is thankfully party driven and not driven by purported ethnic lines. **** that, who wants to be Belgium or Bosnia.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
Ad hominum. You've just lost all credibility and proven that you can't debate or are even worthy of any more time and energy on this thread.
whatever
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
our largest trading partner is England, by a country mile. you'd swap free trade with England for free trade with the EU. you're a ****ing moron, there's no other way to say it and I apologise in advance for saying it.
I think that's a reasonable conclusion. Not sure about the relative affluence of Wales, its size or its ability to stand on its own feet. I presume a Welsh nation would apply to be part of the EU single market and customs union. Most of the small nation beneficiaries of this are those breaking up from soviet structures in central and eastern Europe. Being part of and trading with the EU whilst having to do it through the non-EU country of England is fraught with problems.
That's why I think the biggest leverage the UK has in its negotiations with the EU is the isolation of a member state, Ireland, if trade is less than seamless.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
That's not what you've just argued. You've cited England as our partners. The UK is NI, Wales, Scotland and England.
yes of course, but this Welsh independence movement is about being free from England, not about being free.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
The reunification of Ireland is closer now than ever before.
I can't see the unionists ever agreeing to that, but you clearly think otherwise
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
Scotland will likely become its own nation state.
Likewise, I doubt this will happen in my time
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
So investing in closer ties to an old-boys-network of old public school chums doesn't sound that appealing.
Have you actually been to England? its got a bit more about it than the old boys network.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
But surely you aren't equating the EU and all the benefits of freedom of movement, trade etc with a trip across the Severn Bridge to Bristol (which, by-the-way, we could do anyway, and then decide to continue on to any European city to 'trade' freely if we so desired before - as the UK - we put the barrel in our mouth and pulled the trigger)?
I'm pro EU, you're preaching to the choir
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I do wonder if people like yourself have ever worked in other European countries, speak any other languages or work in a profession that is Pan-European, global?
been there done that, perhaps if you understood I'm for less borders not more, i'm for people not state, you might appreciate why I don't think splitting into smaller and smaller political entities is a good thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
Millions of people have had their European Citizenship stripped from them. I gave up feeling British after 2016. I now only consider myself Welsh. I have zero identity with any Westminster government anymore.
I'm still Welsh, British and European. how can anyone take that away from me, since its a feeling. Perhaps you can explain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
I want Wales to break away from crown, church and state-run systems.
so, anarchy, libertarian in the classical sense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
There is something else too - you keep banging on about feasibility studies and the fact that the M4 bypass isn't going ahead. Two things - feasibility studies are just that, to find out if something is feasible, the other is that they can 'save' a lot of money too. It was decided that it wasn't feasible and I (and many others - see what I did there) am really pleased about that from an environmental point of view. We need more affordable social-housing in Wales and investment in public transport links way before an M4 bypass. We need to make sure that every decision is an environmental one first and start thinking of future generations instead of continuing to fck things up like this
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...ke-way-for-hs2
I've not mentioned feasibility studies at all. I was just saying that what was in my mind a sensible decision (and I say this as someone who travels to and from my office in Bristol regularly) was to improve the road network. you're not going to get Mr UK out of his car, as its too ingrained in his psyche.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
If that isn't enough. Try reminding yourself that very few people thought the re-unification of Germany, the abolition of apartheid, the fall of the USSR were ever possible. All these things have happened in my lifetime.
agreed, but you're talking about oppressive regimes that stifled people's freedoms. We just don't have that here in Wales. most are too busy wondering who's going to be ejected from a house/beach/jungle/song contest to take to the streets to make a difference
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
Wales has been a one party socialist state for 20+ years and we are falling further and further behind.
What happens if Cardiff votes for a Lib-dem government but Wales votes Labour - should Cardiff seek independence as well?
You could argue that the UK has been a one party centre right state since 1979 if you consider that Blair's Labour moved the party to the right, ditching traditional Labour values and it has fallen behind other big nations in many ways. 7th largest economy and nose diving. Always rated poorly in basic standards of education and wealth divide, yet becoming more and more corrupt.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
You could argue that the UK has been a one party centre right state since 1979 if you consider that Blair's Labour moved the party to the right, ditching traditional Labour values and it has fallen behind other big nations in many ways. 7th largest economy and nose diving. Always rated poorly in basic standards of education and wealth divide, yet becoming more and more corrupt.
New Labour were centre left.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
yes of course, but this Welsh independence movement is about being free from England, not about being free.
I can't see the unionists ever agreeing to that, but you clearly think otherwise
Likewise, I doubt this will happen in my time
Have you actually been to England? its got a bit more about it than the old boys network.
I'm pro EU, you're preaching to the choir
been there done that, perhaps if you understood I'm for less borders not more, i'm for people not state, you might appreciate why I don't think splitting into smaller and smaller political entities is a good thing.
I'm still Welsh, British and European. how can anyone take that away from me, since its a feeling. Perhaps you can explain?
so, anarchy, libertarian in the classical sense.
I've not mentioned feasibility studies at all. I was just saying that what was in my mind a sensible decision (and I say this as someone who travels to and from my office in Bristol regularly) was to improve the road network. you're not going to get Mr UK out of his car, as its too ingrained in his psyche.
agreed, but you're talking about oppressive regimes that stifled people's freedoms. We just don't have that here in Wales. most are too busy wondering who's going to be ejected from a house/beach/jungle/song contest to take to the streets to make a difference
Seriously, I appreciate you going to trouble of addressing these points and will ignore the "whateverrr" but just try to not sling insults.
I honestly can't go through everything but will just say, things are veering off into other directions and I don't want to hijack this thread.
For the record, there's absolutely no anti-English bone in my body. I've been educated, lived and worked in England over the years. Let's not make this anti-English when it isn't. I cringe when we chant anti-English stuff (especially as we have an English manager, English players and play in the English league).
I've never really thought of myself as anything other than humanitarian.
I don't deny that travel by car to Bristol everyday gives you a different perspective but as someone who hasn't driven for over ten years because of disability, we can all adapt. I love motorsport but and football but it will never be at the expense of the environment.
And no, of course I wasn't comparing Wales to those examples of world change. I was just highlighting that we have no idea what's going to happen and anything is possible. It's both exciting and frightening.
I can no longer easily travel and work/live in Europe. Nothing you say will change that. That has been taken away from me. I'm angry about it.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Apropos of the anti English sentiment, it wasn't addressed at you, so apologies if it came across that way.
The general impression I get (from the nationalists) is that they'd trade UK membership for EU membership, which isn't really independence, just independence from the English.
And for what its worth, I'm none too happy about leaving the EU. We have a common ideal in wanting to travel freely without impediment.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
I've yet to meet any English man or woman who harbours this mythical dislike of the Welsh. In fact, a lot of the English I speak to love Wales and its people.
the dislike is a one way street, they really only like to beat us a rugby, and then only the southerners.
Strange you should say that, most of my contacts are English including family , there love of Wales is really impressive , especially as they are aware of some Welsh folks dislike of anything English .
Very sad.
British Welsh sounds good to me .
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
our largest trading partner is England, by a country mile. you'd swap free trade with England for free trade with the EU. you're a ****ing moron, there's no other way to say it and I apologise in advance for saying it.
Calm down, dear. It's an internet message board.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
Apropos of the anti English sentiment, it wasn't addressed at you, so apologies if it came across that way.
The general impression I get (from the nationalists) is that they'd trade UK membership for EU membership, which isn't really independence, just independence from the English.
And for what its worth, I'm none too happy about leaving the EU. We have a common ideal in wanting to travel freely without impediment.
I get it. Thank you. I was never going to get involved with anything other than football on this board. That didn't last long! :ayatollah:
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
I've yet to meet any English man or woman who harbours this mythical dislike of the Welsh. In fact, a lot of the English I speak to love Wales and its people.
the dislike is a one way street, they really only like to beat us a rugby, and then only the southerners.
Rubbish. There's Anne Robinson for a start.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
I've read this many times and I have no idea what it is you are trying to say.
You said you have more in common with someone from Bristol than North Wales. When I support the Welsh National team. I am surrounded by people from all over Wales. Town and Country. Urban and Rural. North South East and West. Welsh speakingand English speaking. We have everything in common and it feels great.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
I used to be a very strong nationalist, Welsh and nothing, as i left school i would go on pro-wales marches, my dream was a independent Wales, the FWA and MAC were inspirational to a young blue matt, fighting for our freedom, I then met a few gogs on a march, had a few beers and they really didnt like anyone from South Wales, I was welsh through and through , but to these gogs i was almost English, afterall i was from Barry, it was a eye opener for me
I then put my welshness into folliowing cardiff and wales, that was enough for me, i voted PC, job done, as welsh as welsh can be
I then met some girl on holiday, she was from Cheltenham ( so from the evil empire ) she way out of my league so i ignored the fact that she wasnt welsh, I then began to realise that it was all rather stupid, Welsh or English, it makes no difference, look at the current issue with Andy Burnham ( the great north / south divide ), Someone somewhere will decide they are hard done by by someone else, it is always someone else's fault,
I then moved down here ( near Bath ) and not many English dislike the Welsh, when we were doing well in Euro16, alot of English were supporting the Welsh, Wales is alot of people down here 2nd team, they want us to do well, afterall they are our neighbours
You can be Welsh and still British, the English are not really the evil empire
I am not anti-English, I am anti-Westminster. I want the best for Wales. Simple as that.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
You said you have more in common with someone from Bristol than North Wales. When I support the Welsh National team. I am surrounded by people from all over Wales. Town and Country. Urban and Rural. North South East and West. Welsh speakingand English speaking. We have everything in common and it feels great.
Its no different from the Niedersachsen / Plaatdeutsch considering themselves Dutch / German but having a common culture.
I can be Welsh and British at the same time
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
Its no different from the Niedersachsen / Plaatdeutsch considering themselves Dutch / German but having a common culture.
I can be Welsh and British at the same time
Of course you can be should you wish. But it appears that being Welsh means very little to you if you feel you have more in common with someone from Bristol. Supporting my national team means a lot to me. And the feeling when all of Wales comes together to support them is amazing.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bluebirdman Of Alcathays
Rubbish. There's Anne Robinson for a start.
I saw a repeat of that recently. It's awful, truly awful and am still really annoyed it was ever broadcast. It was bad then but seeing it in 2020 is even worse. Weakest link was the TV watchdog! https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2001/apr/16/race.world
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
Of course you can be should you wish. But it appears that being Welsh means very little to you if you feel you have more in common with someone from Bristol. Supporting my national team means a lot to me. And the feeling when all of Wales comes together to support them is amazing.
I'll never forget the advert on Ely Bridge which went along the lines of "Never forget you're Welsh". But you don't have to live in Wales to know that.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
it wasnt the end of the world then, and certainly isnt now, one persons opinion, who really cares ? ?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
Of course you can be should you wish. But it appears that being Welsh means very little to you if you feel you have more in common with someone from Bristol. Supporting my national team means a lot to me. And the feeling when all of Wales comes together to support them is amazing.
Thats your opinion but it really doesn't mean cultural differences are made at a line on a map. People are transient, political entities are not.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TISS
Its no different from the Niedersachsen / Plaatdeutsch considering themselves Dutch / German but having a common culture.
I can be Welsh and British at the same time
Not if you have a Welsh Nationalist tattoo you cant :popcorn:
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
I am not anti-English, I am anti-Westminster. I want the best for Wales. Simple as that.
fair enough
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rjk
Of course he's not saying that.
We can invest in infrastructure projects that will help the economy, but HS2 doesn't benefit us at all, neither does trident.
I'd love to see a severn barrage at some point in the future.
Schemes like this
http://euanmearns.com/the-severn-barrage-revisited/
Suggest they can generate up to 10% of the UKs energy at a very cheap price in comparison with other methods.
That could be enough to provide the whole of wales with cheap energy (which will be attractive to industry) and have enough left over to sell to England.
Even better if it could also include a road bridge to Lavernock or Nash point, as that could really boost the area.
This kind of project SHOULD be easier to achieve in a union like the UK, but it is so London centric that I don't think it would ever happen.
The point is we don't pay for Trident or HS2 currently as we are net beneficiaries of grants and handouts which we're able to spend on the infrastructure projects I listed which we already have(my personal favourite being the Merthyr bypass).
If we were independent we would not have the money for a Severn barrage.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Garth Blue
So not that he made a lot of money off the back a Welsh natural resource?
I was answering a statement about all the 'Welsh' millions going to London. The money was made possible by outside investment. Welsh workers got paid cash too.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AfricanBluebird
Just seeing what appetite there is on this board for moving towards full independence.
I think the ineptness of the Tories, the arogance & corruption of Westminster and the London-centric / English biased media (including the left-wing media), has made it easier to believe we would be better off on our own.
I'm under no illusions that it will be difficult and we have a long way to go, but has anyone else shifted towards independence recently?
You gotta be F ucking taking the piss !!!!!!!!!!!
You seriously want Donald DUCKford in charge !!!!!!!!
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
blue matt
it wasnt the end of the world then, and certainly isnt now, one persons opinion, who really cares ? ?
I agree, but if you substitute Welsh for any other nationality I'd very much doubt it would have been broadcast.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
BLUETIT
You gotta be F ucking taking the piss !!!!!!!!!!!
You seriously want Donald DUCKford in charge !!!!!!!!
You're a 70 year old man, grow up.
If Wales ever get independence Labour will not be the ones in charge.
One of the main posters on this thread (against Welsh independence) told me in person that if Wales did something with corporation tax (lowering it I think) that that would cover everything due to the inward investment.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ken smith
You're a 69 year old man, grow up.
If Wales ever get independence Labour will not be the ones in charge.
One of the main posters on this thread (against Welsh independence) told me in person that if Wales did something with corporation tax (lowering it I think) that that would cover everything due to the inward investment.
:thumbup:
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
I see the important questions haven't been answered such as the currency and the deficit Wales has over England yet still some believe independence is preferable. Mention is made of the Severn Barrage. I doubt it will ever happen even if it makes more sense now than it did 40 years ago when the scheme was first suggested. Other grandiose schemes such as the Severnside Airport won't happen either for the same reason - finance. However, such schemes would be even less likely to happen if Wales were independent; there simply would not be the finance as those in Wales would already be taxed to the hilt to help with the deficit which would probably be a requirement of the UK government if the pound became the currency and also would reinforce the fact Wales could never be truly independent. Wales could never meet the stringent economic requirements of the EU either so the euro would not be an option. The main scheme that is needed - the M4 improvement around Newport - could and should happen but, wait a minute, politics seems to have got in the way. If there was the political will that scheme would be built but it seems the Welsh government are against it even though the scheme would provide jobs by promoting industrial development. So, even if independence were to happen (which it won't) could the politicians be trusted to do the right thing?
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ken smith
You're a 70 year old man, grow up.
If Wales ever get independence Labour will not be the ones in charge.
One of the main posters on this thread (against Welsh independence) told me in person that if Wales did something with corporation tax (lowering it I think) that that would cover everything due to the inward investment.
That's the policy of the Tory government which Labour oppose.
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Re: Political post.. @Yescymru
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ken smith
You're a 70 year old man, grow up.
If Wales ever get independence Labour will not be the ones in charge.
One of the main posters on this thread (against Welsh independence) told me in person that if Wales did something with corporation tax (lowering it I think) that that would cover everything due to the inward investment.
Then Ireland would just lower theirs