We will never know how good he could have been as a City player. He might have been the player that kept us out of the mess we now find ourselves in.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
RIP
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We will never know how good he could have been as a City player. He might have been the player that kept us out of the mess we now find ourselves in.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
RIP
https://www.pprune.org/accidents-clo...sland-110.html
From the pilots forum
I am inclined to believe you on account of you being Feedback and your obvious knowledge and experience in the field.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
However given that Henderson was the organiser of the flights, the flights were in his name as pilot, and he was the one leasing it, and him demonstrated to be knowingly aware of DI's lack of qualifications - I find it hard to accept that Henderson wouldn't be vicariously liable.
I appreciate it may be the case, but these portions of relevant law pulled from reading around would give credence to that it Henderson does have blame laying firmly on him albeit him not being the pilot who ended up in the cockpit (even though he was the one down on the paperwork! (so for all intents and purposes I would argue was the pilot! - tenuous I appreciate - pilots may routinely have to change to any number of circs I would imagine)
Section 76 of the Civil Aviation Act 1982 - If the aircraft is leased-out for a period of more than 14 days and the pilot is not an employee of the owner the liability is transferred to the individual/party to which the aircraft is demised (lessee by way of agreement).
Operators may be found guilty of corporate manslaughter or homicide pursuant to the Corporate Manslaughter and Corporate Homicide Act 2007 where: (i) the way in which the carrier’s activities had been managed or organised caused a person’s death; (ii) the person’s death was the result of a gross breach of a relevant duty of care owed to that person by the carrier; and (iii) the way in which the senior management of the carrier managed or organised the carrier’s activities was a substantial element of the breach.
as an operator they have a duty of care to their customers. Believe it or not, it is not unheard of to find out a pilot has been flying for many years without the requisite ratings. Its extremely rare, but not unheard of. checks these days are far more stringent.Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
Wasn't it McKay that organised the flight, employing Henderson, in the first instance? Therefore, isn't McKay "vicariously liable", too?Quote:
Originally Posted by gabbsthenewt
In short, if Henderson really had no responsibility and it was all Ibbotson as the pilot, then this case wouldn't even have got to court.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD
Anybody know if Nantes (via McKay) was responsible for the flight ?
I guess it'll all come out in the end. I don't tihnk this had any real bearing on the topic of whether we have to pay the transfer fee or not though - even if Nantes arranged the flightQuote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
N reg aircraft...."self spannered". Ie less oversight and, potentially, less safe.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
McKay employed Henderson to get Sala to Cardiff in time for Sala to join his new teammates in training the next day. To add to the complications, McKays sons were on City's books at the time and soon disappeared from the club (Colchester for one of them, I think) after the plane went down. McKay was after his slice of the cake and wanted to make sure Sala's transfer went through. In that respect Nantes are right to want their transfer fee and aren't liable IMHO.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
I've not articulated myself at all well here, I'll admit that. The PIC is responsible for the aircraft from the moment the engine is turned on to the moment the engine is turned off. The aircraft operator also has a responsibility outside of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
As a pilot, I just cannot understand Ibbotson's thinking in flying. He was ultimately responsible once the aircraft decided to depart.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
He could have just waited until the following morning …he must have reasons to depart that fateful evening … …..the weather was atrocious
another poster has said that he had financial issues, so that's probably the reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
Indeed. He needed the cash from piloting the aircraft and, as a gas engineer, had a job on the following day which he wanted to get to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Feedback
I mean the obvious reading from it would be that he decided to fly believing he and the plane were capable of just about pulling off the flight. Clearly he didn't know well enough and shouldn't have been entrusted with the aircraft.Quote:
Originally Posted by TWGL1
on that flight forum they seemed to be saying that his experience or otherwise might not have had that much to do with the crash if it was carbon monoxide that caused him to become unconsciousQuote:
Originally Posted by gabbsthenewt
9 pages, a verdict and still no closer to understanding who will have to pay
Well we didn’t…..can’t believe he doesn’t go down for this? Attempted murder?Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
Of course, but the feasibility of the flight given the conditions, equipment and pilot was already questionable; so it's quite hard to say the carbon monoxide did them - they would have been fine without it; it would seem I would say quite likely instead that the flight had a significant risk of being doomed carbon monoxide issue or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
most aircraft have some kind of CO monitor the cockpit or flight date. The monitors do have a short life though and do need to be replaced.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rjk
CO poisoning would have affected very kind of pilot, although some may have understood the early warning signs better than others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cityhammer
Similar thread here from a guy in S.A
https://www.pprune.org/accidents-clo...sland-109.html
Hardly a surprise. What were you expecting? This is about Henderson's criminal liability for endangering the safety of an aircraft. It may have a bearing on the civil matters, but it's not like they were going to be covering those in this courtQuote:
Originally Posted by WJ99mobile
I can sense that a lot of people are trying to figure out whether or not this lets us off the hook for the £15m transfer fee. It's true that the main reason this whole thing has dragged out for so long, is that both clubs are covered by insurance, but neither company wishes to foot the bill, unless they have to. So we have to go through this apportionment of blame, because as we all know, where there's blame, there's a claim.
So, does the fact the Henderson has been found guilty clarify anything? Well, possibly - he was approached by McKay, and McKay was the agent acting for, well, who exactly? Cardiff City FC, or Nantes FC? That's the next step...
The one party that I’d love to see come a cropper are the McKay clan. I wouldn’t shed one tear if the majority of blame fell squarely in his/their laps. I’d imagine they’d have some sort of public liability insurance, whether it would cover such a tragedy who knows?Quote:
Originally Posted by tforturton
Today's verdict will have some bearing on next year's inquest. That in turn may point the way for any further prosecutions/insurance claims/liabilities. Unfortunately, this saga has many more twists and turns.
I agree, not heard one good word about them. Especially when you hear stuff they said about not being interested in Sala at all just doing the deal for the money etc…read he will get at least a million if we have to pay Nantes, sickening really. Can they prove he organised the flight for Sala? Does it even matter?Quote:
Originally Posted by splott parker
Yes Mckay was acting on behalf of Nantes not City.Quote:
Originally Posted by 2b2bdoo
Spedger
I stress I don't know, but wasn't Warnock close to the McKay's? Didn't he distance himself from them? Didn't he sign the two lads for CCFC? I don't know if any of this is connected but I can't help feeling there was a lot of stuff going on behind the scenes with a lot of kickbacks. All of it is grubby IMO and I'd love someone to follow the money.Quote:
Originally Posted by goats
Wasn't Warnock's son the McKay lads' agent? As you say...follow the money. Except there isn't any to follow at the moment. The more you look at it, the more Sala comes across as just an innocent pawn in the whole sorry saga.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
Hasn’t it been revealed lately that Warnock went over Dalman’s & Choo’s heads to push the deal through? If, as we hope will happen, everything does come out re. The whole tragic & sordid event, will there be a finger pointing frenzy regarding the whole financial aspect of the shitshow? Could be a light the blue touchpaper and retire affair. Did the ‘Could open up a can of worms’ quote from Henderson refer to a wider scam and not just the loss of the plane and lives? There’s definitely an undercurrent to the whole scenario, something stinks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
I have been thinking along them lines. Prior to promotion NW stated at a few Q&As i went too that if we got promotion he would not look at overseas type players, reiterating doing it the Burnley way. He not only went for Sala, but, as we recently learned, went over MD and KCs' heads (the transfer committee) to get VT to buy Sala. I am in no way implicating NW in any under-the-table stuff here, but would he have been given a recommendation by McKay? Who we now know was representing Nantes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
Feel really sorry for Emiliano's family with all this crap. But this is a complicated saga that has big money involved and big players.
R.I.P Emiliano
Spedger
:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by splott parker
I'd forgotten about that. You're right about no money to follow. I'm still hopeful there's a paper trail somewhere. If not, why not?Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD
Ironically, I think the can of worms has already been opened just by making that quote. This story's going to be investigated - it's only a matter of time. I wouldn't be surprised if The Guardian get their teeth into it.Quote:
Originally Posted by splott parker
You're right Spedger, the human cost is the greatest of all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloop_Jon_Bee
Saw this video of David Henderson with the actual plane that went down on that pilots forum, never seen this before https://www.bbc.com/news/av/magazine-34492176
Words to pick out from that...dangerous..........addictive............cha llenging. And he gave the gig to an unqualified pilot due to his romantic trip to Paris making him unavailable to fly Sala. Criminal, literally.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wozza16
From the evidence reported as presented in court, these types of flights are done on the nod with text records being the most damning. Apart from bank transfers, no paperwork at a guess.Quote:
Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew
It's a really shocking retrospective video. I had no idea this kind of thing went on. I'm not sure if it's been covered, but does he lose his license? Will he ever be allowed to fly commercially again? I haven't seen this mentioned but I kind of assumed he'd be 'struck off' like an MD. I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by IanD
Wow a truly shocking watch Wozza
How ironic he talks about “ditching a plane in the Atlantic”
An impossibility I’d imagine at night during an atrocious storm plus he goes on to say he’s known eleven experienced pilots that hadn’t made it- he’s just hung himself right there by employing a pilot who didn’t have the correct paperwork as well as the actual plane’s owner stating she never wanted ibbotson to fly her plane again!!
Don’t tell me Henderson wasn’t aware of the shocking weather that night - he must have been in touch with ibbotson with regards to time lines and McKays orders to have Sala at Cardiff
The next day was clear blue sky and flat calm - I remember the weather that evening and the news breaking the plane had gone missing
If only…….
R.I.P Emiliano