Crowds banned from all sporting events in Wales for foreseeable future

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

It’s about a democratically elected Welsh govt trying to do the right thing for Wales.

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And they're failing. Consistently.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

it really does look like its " we are different / independant to Westminster " of course he knows Welsh labour are the only party in Wales and people will automatically vote for them every time

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So Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales all take a similar approach, Westminster takes a different approach, but it’s Wales trying to be different from Westminster? Why have this same argument over and over, it goes nowhere. They are all doing what they think is right and what they think they can achieve given the make up and views of their cabinet, backbenchers and wider parties. That’s how politics works.

The Westminster govt may well announce additional restrictions in the coming days, brining them closer to the other UK governments.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

And they're failing. Consistently.

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Good job we have a democracy in Wales then. When Wales was failed for generation after generation from Westminster, there was bugger all the people of Wales could do about it. If Wales wants policy change now, they can vote for it.

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

Good job we have a democracy in Wales then.

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What has democracy got to do with the consistent failure of the Welsh government to do the best thing for the Welsh public?

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

What has democracy got to do with the consistent failure of the Welsh government to do the best thing for the Welsh public?

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The consistent failure viewpoint is likely not shared by sufficient numbers to bring about change. The point I was making was that at least we have a mechanism now to make change happen in Wales in devolved policy areas if sufficient numbers vote for change.

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

The consistent failure viewpoint is likely not shared by sufficient numbers to bring about change.

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That is likely. But then we're living in a country that voted for Brexit.

Germany, Finland, Spain, France, Portugal, Netherlands etc are all implementing restrictions that are either the same or stricter than we have in Wales, that's what i've read, if i'm correct and that's without checking on other European countries. Is their an over reaction from these nations and their governments as well. Obviously, most of us here are UK based, but i don't think that we can ignore the fact that other countries are going as hard or harder than Wales.

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Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

That is likely. But then we're living in a country that voted for Brexit.

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Therein lies the real problem...

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Germany, Finland, Spain, France, Portugal, Netherlands etc are all implementing restrictions that are either the same or stricter than we have in Wales, that's what i've read, if i'm correct and that's without checking on other European countries. Is their an over reaction from these nations and their governments as well. Obviously, most of us here are UK based, but i don't think that we can ignore the fact that other countries are going as hard or harder than Wales.

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Errrrmmmm…. ‘Covid Omicron: European nations reinstate restrictions’ https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59747689

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

Erm…. Covid Omicron: European nations reinstate restrictions https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-59747689

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Maybe they're all over reacting.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Maybe they're all over reacting.

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Maybe the leaders of those respective countries are not being held to account by a number of MPs that do not want any restrictions implemented at all and got their leader by his tiny bollocks?

Additionally, just maybe those respective leaders are not narcissistic twaats who don't mind making tough decisions for the good of their populations instead of being more worried about looking like a Christmas Grinch?

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Maybe the leaders of those respective countries are not being held to account by a number of MPs that do not want any restrictions implemented at all and got their leader by his tiny bollocks?

Additionally, just maybe those respective leaders are not narcissistic twaats who don't mind making tough decisions for the good of their populations instead of being more worried about looking like a Christmas Grinch?

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Great analysis and I might add maybe some of those respective leaders care more about their people's health and welfare rather than the way they are destined to vote.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Maybe the leaders of those respective countries are not being held to account by a number of MPs that do not want any restrictions implemented at all and got their leader by his tiny bollocks?

Additionally, just maybe those respective leaders are not narcissistic twaats who don't mind making tough decisions for the good of their populations instead of being more worried about looking like a Christmas Grinch?

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Yup, i agree.:xmasthumbup:

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Maybe the leaders of those respective countries are not being held to account by a number of MPs that do not want any restrictions implemented at all and got their leader by his tiny bollocks?

Additionally, just maybe those respective leaders are not narcissistic twaats who don't mind making tough decisions for the good of their populations instead of being more worried about looking like a Christmas Grinch?

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Is there any reason for the vitriol? 'Narcissistic twaats'(sic) 'tiny bollox'? Its comments like that that have made this board so offensive.
I have no idea who is right and who is wrong but isn't it better to see how things start to pan out before blaming someone for
something that hasn't yet happened?
The argument of those against the stricter policy in wales point to the evidence that the new variant is less deadly and less likely to hospitalise than the previous, and when asked for the figures to justify his call Drakeford either couldn't or wouldn't produce them.
As for the continental countries, they are further behind the curve than UK, have no way to control their borders and have in general far smaller a percentage of populations vaccine protected. All these things give people pause for thought and to question why certain things happen.
But don't let that get in the way of slagging off the government, you do it in almost every other thread you join. Enjoy your christmas.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Is there any reason for the vitriol? 'Narcissistic twaats'(sic) 'tiny bollox'? Its comments like that that have made this board so offensive.
I have no idea who is right and who is wrong but isn't it better to see how things start to pan out before blaming someone for
something that hasn't yet happened?
The argument of those against the stricter policy in wales point to the evidence that the new variant is less deadly and less likely to hospitalise than the previous, and when asked for the figures to justify his call Drakeford either couldn't or wouldn't produce them.
As for the continental countries, they are further behind the curve than UK, have no way to control their borders and have in general far smaller a percentage of populations vaccine protected. All these things give people pause for thought and to question why certain things happen.
But don't let that get in the way of slagging off the government, you do it in almost every other thread you join. Enjoy your christmas.

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Stop crying about bad language you massive fuucking wuss.

It's a message board not a monastery.

Hope you've had a good Christmas too.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Is there any reason for the vitriol? 'Narcissistic twaats'(sic) 'tiny bollox'? Its comments like that that have made this board so offensive.
I have no idea who is right and who is wrong but isn't it better to see how things start to pan out before blaming someone for
something that hasn't yet happened?
The argument of those against the stricter policy in wales point to the evidence that the new variant is less deadly and less likely to hospitalise than the previous, and when asked for the figures to justify his call Drakeford either couldn't or wouldn't produce them.
As for the continental countries, they are further behind the curve than UK, have no way to control their borders and have in general far smaller a percentage of populations vaccine protected. All these things give people pause for thought and to question why certain things happen.
But don't let that get in the way of slagging off the government, you do it in almost every other thread you join. Enjoy your christmas.

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Norway has some of the strictest border controls in Europe and they've pretty much gone down the same line as Wales, or maybe even before Wales. It's a minefied, i tell ya :hehe:

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Norway has some of the strictest border controls in Europe and they've pretty much gone down the same line as Wales, or maybe even before Wales. It's a minefied, i tell ya :hehe:

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I agree, but the mental affect of all these restrictions and lockdowns and the affect on childrens education are just as serious but some seem to think that they are unimportant, or at least the actions they take suggest that.
There is no right or wrong way, it should be about balancing to try to arrive at the least bad results for all those things. If schools don't open again it will be a disaster that will have repercussions far beyond the spring or next year. And teachers cannot go to school because they'll ger fined given the fact the welsh government knows they can work from home.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I agree, but the mental affect of all these restrictions and lockdowns and the affect on childrens education are just as serious but some seem to think that they are unimportant, or at least the actions they take suggest that.
There is no right or wrong way, it should be about balancing to try to arrive at the least bad results for all those things. If schools don't open again it will be a disaster that will have repercussions far beyond the spring or next year. And teachers cannot go to school because they'll ger fined given the fact the welsh government knows they can work from home.

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"And teachers cannot go to school because they'll get fined given the fact the Welsh government knows they can work from home."

You trying to do comedy or are really that twp?

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

"And teachers cannot go to school because they'll get fined given the fact the Welsh government knows they can work from home."

You trying to do comedy or are really that twp?

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well if they don't get fined he is breaking his own rules!!! Explain how he isn't!

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Is there any reason for the vitriol? 'Narcissistic twaats'(sic) 'tiny bollox'? Its comments like that that have made this board so offensive.
I have no idea who is right and who is wrong but isn't it better to see how things start to pan out before blaming someone for
something that hasn't yet happened?
The argument of those against the stricter policy in wales point to the evidence that the new variant is less deadly and less likely to hospitalise than the previous, and when asked for the figures to justify his call Drakeford either couldn't or wouldn't produce them.
As for the continental countries, they are further behind the curve than UK, have no way to control their borders and have in general far smaller a percentage of populations vaccine protected. All these things give people pause for thought and to question why certain things happen.
But don't let that get in the way of slagging off the government, you do it in almost every other thread you join. Enjoy your christmas.

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Re your claim about Drakeford producing figures, Welsh Government publishes the Technical Advisory Cell advice and modelling every month: https://gov.wales/advice-coronavirus...-advisory-cell

Re the situation on the continent, being further behind the curve is not an argument not to be proactive. Anyway, France has over 100,000 cases today.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

well if they don't get fined he is breaking his own rules!!! Explain how he isn't!

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You're doing twp then! Have another pop at reading the rules buddy.

I'll tell my wife she's not expected in next week although she's had to do some planning for the return of kids back into school or the very least hubs for key workers kids.

She'll be grateful I got this information from you.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

You're doing twp then! Have another pop at reading the rules buddy.

I'll tell my wife she's not expected in next week although she's had to do some planning for the return of kids back into school or the very least hubs for key workers kids.

She'll be grateful I got this information from you.

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so the rules only apply to he people who drakeford decides they do!! They worked from home before so they should again. If they can work and everyone can go to the pub/restaurant then why can't everyone work normally? It's a simple question.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

well if they don't get fined he is breaking his own rules!!! Explain how he isn't!

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Seriously?

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

Seriously?

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yes seriously.
I know everyone will say "Ah but the children must be educated" but there was no stipulation in the regulations and we know teachers can work from home because they did it before? And then there is the backlog that will increase in DVLA paperwork fecking up HGV licencing again, amongst other things, or are they exempt too? Who decides?how are the police to enforce a law which only applies to the people drakeford wants it to apply to?

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

yes seriously.
I know everyone will say "Ah but the children must be educated" but there was no stipulation in the regulations and we know teachers can work from home because they did it before? And then there is the backlog that will increase in DVLA paperwork fecking up HGV licencing again, amongst other things, or are they exempt too? Who decides?how are the police to enforce a law which only applies to the people drakeford wants it to apply to?

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I don't think it's a new law I think it was in place in the earlier lockdowns. The difference then was there was a lockdown and it was to protect workers from being asked in to offices when they couldn't go into any other house or any pub or anywhere apart from an essential shop.

However from what they said last week now people could legally all work together in somebody's house and mix 30 households in 1 house- or meet in a pub or restaurant to work in groups of 6 on one table- but they can't sit alone in an office.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

yes seriously.
I know everyone will say "Ah but the children must be educated" but there was no stipulation in the regulations and we know teachers can work from home because they did it before? And then there is the backlog that will increase in DVLA paperwork fecking up HGV licencing again, amongst other things, or are they exempt too? Who decides?how are the police to enforce a law which only applies to the people drakeford wants it to apply to?

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You're aware the same regulations were in place earlier in the pandemic, right? And you're aware how many fines were issued, right? And you're aware that in person schooling for some pupils has remained throughout the pandemic, right?

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

Re your claim about Drakeford producing figures, Welsh Government publishes the Technical Advisory Cell advice and modelling every month: https://gov.wales/advice-coronavirus...-advisory-cell

Re the situation on the continent, being further behind the curve is not an argument not to be proactive. Anyway, France has over 100,000 cases today.

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I don't disagree that the figures are published monthly but when he announced the boxing day measure he was directly asked by a journalist for the figure on which the decision was based and he talked for 10 minutes to say the journalist wasn't going to get them suggesting to many that up to date figures might not actually exist or may not support his actions.
Yes france has over 100,000 but thy are still behind UK in the time that they have been seeing Omicron spread so they better get ready for more.

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

You're aware the same regulations were in place earlier in the pandemic, right? And you're aware how many fines were issued, right? And you're aware that in person schooling for some pupils has remained throughout the pandemic, right?

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Logic indicates this is patently false.

Online remote learning has been occurring, still is when the need is deemed - conveniently the final week of last term before Christmas.

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

You're aware the same regulations were in place earlier in the pandemic, right? And you're aware how many fines were issued, right? And you're aware that in person schooling for some pupils has remained throughout the pandemic, right?

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Yes I'm aware that some children still went to school because of family circumstances but schools were not open for general education.
With your comment about the number of fines issued previously are you suggesting that the police won't arrest or fine anyone, and are you suggesting that is OK? In that case we may as well just all ignore the regulations and go about our business as usual.

Also consider businesses who have to employ more staff but must maintain a reduced clientele. for them it's a double whammy, not only less income but more expense. maybe they should all ignore the new regulations as well.
Is that what your remark is suggesting? If it is not what did you mention it for. I'd love to know.

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Originally Posted by logic

Logic indicates this is patently false.

Online remote learning has been occurring, still is when the need is deemed - conveniently the final week of last term before Christmas.

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Read my words again, you've misunderstood them.

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

Read my words again, you've misunderstood them.

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Logic would indicate you need to be more precise in your wording.

The implication you made was that in person schooling was generally available; "children of essential workers" and "vulnerable children" were the subset you should have referred to. It's also worth pointing out that plenty of "vulnerable children" were denied in person education, in particular children with special needs. Quite a few didn't receive in person teaching, essential given their needs because they aren't as important as NHS workers.

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Originally Posted by logic

Logic would indicate you need to be more precise in your wording.

The implication you made was that in person schooling was generally available; "children of essential workers" and "vulnerable children" were the subset you should have referred to. It's also worth pointing out that plenty of "vulnerable children" were denied in person education, in particular children with special needs. Quite a few didn't receive in person teaching, essential given their needs because they aren't as important as NHS workers.

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So if teachers could work from home then there is no reason why the shouldn't now. so again I ask, does this mean schools will be closed?

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

So if teachers could work from home then there is no reason why the shouldn't now. so again I ask, does this mean schools will be closed?

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Logic indicates that if unions believe they can push Dripford to do so, it will happen.

If it doesn't happen then all teachers who go to school should be fined and all school Governors/Head Teachers who allow them to should also be fined.
If not then the law is just what a lot of people say it is, Drakeford making up rules just to be different to England and indefensible in a court of law.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Yes I'm aware that some children still went to school because of family circumstances but schools were not open for general education.
With your comment about the number of fines issued previously are you suggesting that the police won't arrest or fine anyone, and are you suggesting that is OK? In that case we may as well just all ignore the regulations and go about our business as usual.

Also consider businesses who have to employ more staff but must maintain a reduced clientele. for them it's a double whammy, not only less income but more expense. maybe they should all ignore the new regulations as well.
Is that what your remark is suggesting? If it is not what did you mention it for. I'd love to know.

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I was implying that your initial statement about teachers not going to school because of the work from home regs was/is wrong.

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Originally Posted by logic

Logic would indicate you need to be more precise in your wording.

The implication you made was that in person schooling was generally available; "children of essential workers" and "vulnerable children" were the subset you should have referred to. It's also worth pointing out that plenty of "vulnerable children" were denied in person education, in particular children with special needs. Quite a few didn't receive in person teaching, essential given their needs because they aren't as important as NHS workers.

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Logic would indicate you need to be more precise in your reading.

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

I was implying that your initial statement about teachers not going to school because of the work from home regs was/is wrong.

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Logic would indicate that a literal interpretation of what Dripford has laid down would indicate that xsnaggle is correct. Remote learning has been used before, therefore teachers can work from home.

The "common sense" view is that learning should be in person where applicable - special needs provision really demands it tbh. The issue is that Dripford issues broad edicts without considering edge cases. Ban Welsh football fans from home games, allow them to go to away games in England.

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Originally Posted by logic

Logic would indicate that a literal interpretation of what Dripford has laid down would indicate that xsnaggle is correct. Remote learning has been used before, therefore teachers can work from home.

The "common sense" view is that learning should be in person where applicable - special needs provision really demands it tbh. The issue is that Dripford issues broad edicts without considering edge cases. Ban Welsh football fans from home games, allow them to go to away games in England.

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Online shopping is a thing, therefore all shops should close type logic. Brilliant.

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Originally Posted by superflyblues

Online shopping is a thing, therefore all shops should close type logic. Brilliant.

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Logic would indicate you've the reading capacity of a dead slug.

Your analogy is utterly false. How can a shop worker work online? Can they stock shelves virtually? Tesco online is a separate entity within the Tesco chain from the stores division, for example.

The point being made which is clearly miles above your head, is that a literal interpretation of Dripford's edicts indicate schools should close. Apart from those children who use public transport, teaching can be conducted remotely as it has been before - with some specific exceptions. As was pointed out, Dripford doesn't consider nuances and edge cases.

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Originally Posted by logic

Logic would indicate you need to be more precise in your wording.

The implication you made was that in person schooling was generally available; "children of essential workers" and "vulnerable children" were the subset you should have referred to. It's also worth pointing out that plenty of "vulnerable children" were denied in person education, in particular children with special needs. Quite a few didn't receive in person teaching, essential given their needs because they aren't as important as NHS workers.

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Logic would indicate that you should learn how to read