The War starts Putin announces "Military Operation" in Ukraine. Explosions heard in Kyiv

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Because basically British people are xenophobic jingoistic feckwits

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Don’t underestimate the power of those who can drive ****wits to a single goal. The world is jam-packed with ****wits. Grab a fraction of them and you have a moron army. Farridge is dangerous but he’s not a moron. The PM is both.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I wonder how many people would relish a nuclear war? If things escalate too much this could be the inevitable outcome. Unless there's absolutely no alternative it makes sense for Western nations to show the utmost restraint in an attempt to contain the situation.

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Sorry I don’t agree. This is happening in Europe. The EU and NATO should have put their foot down in the first place when troop build ups were continuing to grow. Putin has been let loose to do what he likes. We can cover our national monuments in blue and yellow colour and our politicians, protests and social media can spout out “we’re with you Ukraine” however this has done and will do nothing. It has been building for months. Dialogue and sanctions against Russia and putin didn’t work. The politicians know this, they expected this and they’ve let it happen.
The only way to beat a bully is bully him back.
Ukraine are on their own and I now find it shit NATO and the EU let it happen.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Because basically British people are xenophobic jingoistic feckwits

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Your oft stated opinions of the British people in general and nyone in authority in particular make me wonder more and more why you stay here.
Why don't you move somewhere more in line with your thinking and philosophy?

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Originally Posted by Monster munch

Sorry I don’t agree. This is happening in Europe. The EU and NATO should have put their foot down in the first place when troop build ups were continuing to grow. Putin has been let loose to do what he likes. We can cover our national monuments in blue and yellow colour and our politicians, protests and social media can spout out “we’re with you Ukraine” however this has done and will do nothing. It has been building for months. Dialogue and sanctions against Russia and putin didn’t work. The politicians know this, they expected this and they’ve let it happen.
The only way to beat a bully is bully him back.
Ukraine are on their own and I now find it shit NATO and the EU let it happen.

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A flattened Ukraine, reformed again into a great Russia is clearly a price worth paying

What else justifies what's happened ?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

A flattened Ukraine, reformed again into a great Russia is clearly a price worth paying

What else justifies what's happened ?

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What would you do at this point if you were in charge? Genuinely interested. British and US troops on the ground, full blown war with Russia?

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Originally Posted by Monster munch

Sorry I don’t agree. This is happening in Europe. The EU and NATO should have put their foot down in the first place when troop build ups were continuing to grow. Putin has been let loose to do what he likes. We can cover our national monuments in blue and yellow colour and our politicians, protests and social media can spout out “we’re with you Ukraine” however this has done and will do nothing. It has been building for months. Dialogue and sanctions against Russia and putin didn’t work. The politicians know this, they expected this and they’ve let it happen.
The only way to beat a bully is bully him back.
Ukraine are on their own and I now find it shit NATO and the EU let it happen.

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I don't think it's a clear cut scenario. The chances are that no matter what the West did short of military resistance nothing would have stopped Putin. Many commentators think he would not have been fazed by even the most severe sanctions.

I was just pointing out how difficult this is for any leader to deal with. There might have been a possibility that if the West had stuffed Ukraine with troops Putin might have considered this too much of a challenge and backed off. On the other hand he might have retaliated and soon it might have escalated beyond control. I'm just glad I don't have to make the decisions.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

What's the point of countries having an army if all its going to do is twiddle its thumbs and sit on its hands when the shit hits the fan ?

This situation has made a nonsense out of the politicians and diplomats whilst those able to do a job , the army , the navy and the air force of various countries , is impotent

Bunch of jokers

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The reason we are not fighting is the same reason Putin knew he could do it... because Ukraine is not a member of the alliance of nations that protect each others freedoms. It's that simple.
And part of what Putin is doing is an attempt to ensure that they never will be.

I reckon we’ll be clapping on our doorsteps for Ukraine next Thursday if Johnson has his way.

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Originally Posted by delmbox

What would you do at this point if you were in charge? Genuinely interested. British and US troops on the ground, full blown war with Russia?

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What makes you think sludge knows, he just takes any and every opportunity to knock this country and the government. Even people who commit crimes aren't to blame, society and the people who enforce the law are, didn't you know?
If we had thrown the Marines and the Para Brigade in there he'd be shouting about us getting involved in 'another' war that is none of our business, and shouting to stop the war. He is as predictable as day follows night!

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Your oft stated opinions of the British people in general and nyone in authority in particular make me wonder more and more why you stay here.
Why don't you move somewhere more in line with your thinking and philosophy?

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That's a bit er ....nazi like isn't it ?

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Originally Posted by delmbox

What would you do at this point if you were in charge? Genuinely interested. British and US troops on the ground, full blown war with Russia?

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It's too late now

Build up of troops since 2014 ?

Can't say we wernt warned

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

What makes you think sludge knows, he just takes any and every opportunity to knock this country and the government. Even people who commit crimes aren't to blame, society and the people who enforce the law are, didn't you know?
If we had thrown the Marines and the Para Brigade in there he'd be shouting about us getting involved in 'another' war that is none of our business, and shouting to stop the war. He is as predictable as day follows night!

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This government has had 8 years of military build up to work with others to do something about this .

I am afraid its been caught short .

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Someone posted a photo of this 80-year-old who showed up to join the army, carrying with him a small case with 2 t-shirts, a pair of extra pants, a toothbrush and a few sandwiches for lunch. He said he was doing it for his grandkids. <a href="https://t.co/bemD24h6Ae">pic.twitter.com/bemD24h6Ae</a></p>&mdash; Kateryna Yushchenko (@KatyaYushchenko) <a href="https://twitter.com/KatyaYushchenko/status/1496983880494198789?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 24, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

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Originally Posted by Baloo

<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Someone posted a photo of this 80-year-old who showed up to join the army, carrying with him a small case with 2 t-shirts, a pair of extra pants, a toothbrush and a few sandwiches for lunch. He said he was doing it for his grandkids. <a href="https://t.co/bemD24h6Ae">pic.twitter.com/bemD24h6Ae</a></p>&mdash; Kateryna Yushchenko (@KatyaYushchenko) <a href="https://twitter.com/KatyaYushchenko/status/1496983880494198789?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">February 24, 2022</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>

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Boris will have a hug a ukranian in the uk day

And we will all wear Ukranian clothes

And listen to The Wedding Present

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I don't think it's a clear cut scenario. The chances are that no matter what the West did short of military resistance nothing would have stopped Putin. Many commentators think he would not have been fazed by even the most severe sanctions.

I was just pointing out how difficult this is for any leader to deal with. There might have been a possibility that if the West had stuffed Ukraine with troops Putin might have considered this too much of a challenge and backed off. On the other hand he might have retaliated and soon it might have escalated beyond control. I'm just glad I don't have to make the decisions.

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No I get that. It is a very tricky one for sure now….but My frustration is the build up has been happening for months and the threat of sanctions and all that jazz just wasn’t going to work.
I understand Ukraine isn’t part of NATO so clearly not covered by article 5 however Biden and Co have been saying for months that he’s going to invade, they knew it.
So why wasn’t force threatened that if a sovereign nation, part of Europe if invaded will be met by force by the international community rather than sanctions which could take months.
Putin is done now. Even China is on the 50/50 and they normally back him with everything.

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Originally Posted by Monster munch

No I get that. It is a very tricky one for sure now….but My frustration is the build up has been happening for months and the threat of sanctions and all that jazz just wasn’t going to work.
I understand Ukraine isn’t part of NATO so clearly not covered by article 5 however Biden and Co have been saying for months that he’s going to invade, they knew it.
So why wasn’t force threatened that if a sovereign nation, part of Europe if invaded will be met by force by the international community rather than sanctions which could take months.
Putin is done now. Even China is on the 50/50 and they normally back him with everything.

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Well both America and Britain in the past have not been backward in coming forwards when it comes to foreign policy

But this is Russia

2014 was the beginning of troop and armament movements

Plenty of time was available before any conflict to put arms and boots and tanks in Ukraine.

But all that's happened is a small donation in real terms of any concrete military support .

It's a plague on all their houses really .

there are some insane posts on Reddit at the moment.

There are always a few things posted from years ago purporting to be from today when this sort of thing happens, so its important to check - but a lot of them check out and my god it's insane out there

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well both America and Britain in the past have not been backward in coming forwards when it comes to foreign policy

But this is Russia

2014 was the beginning of troop and armament movements

Plenty of time was available before any conflict to put arms and boots and tanks in Ukraine.

But all that's happened is a small donation in real terms of any concrete military support .

It's a plague on all their houses really .

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What would you have said if the UK and America et al put tanks into Ukraine in 2016 or 2018 or any other time. The opposition would have been enormous

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Originally Posted by Monster munch

No I get that. It is a very tricky one for sure now….but My frustration is the build up has been happening for months and the threat of sanctions and all that jazz just wasn’t going to work.
I understand Ukraine isn’t part of NATO so clearly not covered by article 5 however Biden and Co have been saying for months that he’s going to invade, they knew it.
So why wasn’t force threatened that if a sovereign nation, part of Europe if invaded will be met by force by the international community rather than sanctions which could take months.
Putin is done now. Even China is on the 50/50 and they normally back him with everything.

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I hope China doesn't back him in the Security Council. That could be a glimmer of light.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It's too late now

Build up of troops since 2014 ?

Can't say we wernt warned

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Bit pointless banging on about what the response has been if you haven't got a clue what you'd do differently though

I'm trying to disengage my brain from politics in general and my own bias...it's tough though when people are so blatant in their hatred for the United Kingdom.

People should shut their fcking mouths about Britain's envolvement or accusing people of jingoism.

Do you know what Britain has done so far?
Do you know what Britain will do?
Do you know how British anti tank weapons helped Ukraine today???

The UK have committed a shit ton more to Ukraine
than the likes of Germany.

A proper anti facist is on his way right now to Wisconsin Avenue in DC.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I hope China doesn't back him in the Security Council. That could be a glimmer of light.

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That would be beautiful.
Can't see it happening sadly.

If anybody wants to help financially btw.

https://www.gq.com/story/where-to-donate-in-ukraine

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Your oft stated opinions of the British people in general and nyone in authority in particular make me wonder more and more why you stay here.
Why don't you move somewhere more in line with your thinking and philosophy?

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“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” Clarence Darrow.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

That would be beautiful.
Can't see it happening sadly.

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There's some hope China might abstain, possibly a forlorn hope but it's something to cling on to.

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Originally Posted by az city

“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” Clarence Darrow.

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But it sticks in the throat somewhat when the person saying we should have done more, send troop or whatever, has spent for ever slagging off the government for actually doing things and thinks the UK is an agent of the US and everything it does is bad. He's a fecking joke.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

But it sticks in the throat somewhat when the person saying we should have done more, send troop or whatever, has spent for ever slagging off the government for actually doing things and thinks the UK is an agent of the US and everything it does is bad. He's a fecking joke.

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“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.” Howard Zinn.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

There's some hope China might abstain, possibly a forlorn hope but it's something to cling on to.

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BREAKING: UN Security Council resolution condemning Russia for invasion of Ukraine fails due to Russian veto, China abstains

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

There's some hope China might abstain, possibly a forlorn hope but it's something to cling on to.

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They Did it!!

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Originally Posted by delmbox

What would you do at this point if you were in charge? Genuinely interested. British and US troops on the ground, full blown war with Russia?

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I think European and British troops should flood the Ukraine and push the Russians back.
You cannot allow one country, however powerful they are, to take liberties like this.
Sanctions are not gonna help the people of the Ukraine right now, when they are desperate for help.

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Originally Posted by MOZZER2

BREAKING: UN Security Council resolution condemning Russia for invasion of Ukraine fails due to Russian veto, China abstains

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UN Security Council voting on resolution condemning Russia.

Yes

- United States
- United Kingdom
- France
- Norway
- Ireland
- Albania
- Gabon
- Mexico
- Brazil
- Ghana
- Kenya

No

- Russia

Abstain

- China
- India
- United Arab Emirates

Maybe we should all just accept on this thread that there is a variegated set of views on what the West can/should do in response to Putin's naked aggression.

To me, there is one indisputable given - Putin is 100% in the wrong - but there are many, many more uncertainties. I feel a sense of despair because I feel the World is probably at its closest to war than at any other point in my lifetime.

I'm just hoping that there is a lot more going on behind the scenes than is apparent in the media.

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Originally Posted by MOZZER2

UN Security Council voting on resolution condemning Russia.

Yes

- United States
- United Kingdom
- France
- Norway
- Ireland
- Albania
- Gabon
- Mexico
- Brazil
- Ghana
- Kenya

No

- Russia

Abstain

- China
- India
- United Arab Emirates

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Why did India and the UAE abstain?

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

I think European and British troops should flood the Ukraine and push the Russians back.
You cannot allow one country, however powerful they are, to take liberties like this.
Sanctions are not gonna help the people of the Ukraine right now, when they are desperate for help.

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So you want the UK to declare war on Russia?

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Originally Posted by az city

“Dissent is the highest form of patriotism.” Howard Zinn.

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You can sit there and quote your shite all day. It doesn't alter anything. You are as bad. You sit on here banging on about brexit being bad from a position where it has no affect on you what so ever.

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Originally Posted by az city

Why did India and the UAE abstain?

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maybe Russia supply with India with military equipment might have something to do with it ?

as for UAE I haven't got a clue

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Originally Posted by az city

Why did India and the UAE abstain?

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India rely on Russian missiles for protection against China apparently. Dunno about UAE. Probably just butties.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

You can sit there and quote your shite all day. It doesn't alter anything. You are as bad. You sit on here banging on about brexit being bad from a position where it has no affect on you what so ever.

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Peace be with you, too. Chill out. Read the post immediately after.

Actually, Brexit had a major effect on me. I was intending to go back to France to work and then retire.

Just for the record, I don't think what I posted was "shite". You may feel any criticism of one's nation is unacceptable, I don't. I think it's healthy. Have you not seen there have been 2K+ arrests in Russia of anti-war protesters? Your logic points to the Russian authorities being justified.

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Originally Posted by az city

Why did India and the UAE abstain?

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Don't know about the UAE but India is reliant on Russian trade (support for Indian agriculture) and Imran Khan met with Putin yesterday in Moscow, so there is an Indian-Pakistani dimension too.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Don't know about the UAE but India is reliant on Russian trade (support for Indian agriculture) and Imran Khan met with Putin yesterday in Moscow, so there is an Indian-Pakistani dimension too.

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Thanks, to you, Mozzer and DW. I clearly need to brush up on my Asian geopolitics.