FT: ARMENIA 1 - 1 WALES. Match thread

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Armenia prove there are no mugs in international football these days

We don't have the squad we had in 2016

No manager can turn water into wine

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Utter nonsense.

Armenia are ranked 95th in the world.

For a reason.

Last month they list to Latvia, ranked 132.

They outplayed us in both games due to the management.

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Originally Posted by Cleve van Leef

You seem to be correct on this occasion, sad to say.

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Yawn

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

He's not the best but come on our side lacks an Ashley Williams, Ramsey , Bale etc

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What do you care? Why are you even involved in this thread?

As you’ve stated many times you don’t give a flying F about international football.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Utter nonsense.

Armenia are ranked 95th in the world.

For a reason.

Last month they list to Latvia, ranked 132.

They outplayed us in both games due to the management.

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7 defensive outfield players against the mighty Armenia. Because he didn’t want to change a winning team. Let’s be fair.

It’s not Aberfan SC, you didn’t play last game and we won so I can’t change it ffs. Horses for courses, we didn’t need to play the same team and tactics for Armenia that we did Croatia!!

He’s got to go. He’s so far out of his depth not even arm bands and a rubber ring can save him.

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Originally Posted by fugsyphil

That's exactly why I blame the international manager. He's clearly doing something wrong with him

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So you think a footballer’s ability can be turned on and off like a tap because of who his manager is?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So you think a footballer’s ability can be turned on and off like a tap because of who his manager is?

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Eh no? I think Page isn't getting the best out of him by a long way which is down to Page's tactics

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Originally Posted by fugsyphil

Eh no? I think Page isn't getting the best out of him by a long way which is down to Page's tactics

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Nice excuse to have for someone who should probably by our best player by now to have, my poor displays for my country are all down to the manager - Johnson’s not played well for Wales for about eighteen months, he should carry some responsibility for that.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Nice excuse to have for someone who should probably by our best player by now to have, my poor displays for my country are all down to the manager - Johnson’s not played well for Wales for about eighteen months, he should carry some responsibility for that.

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Where do you believe Johnson most effective position is?

I would say he is an out-and-out inside forward, closer to a centre forward, than an attacking midfielder like Wilson, they are not like-for-like. Wilson could play 8 effectively, whilst Johnson could/has played "9".

Johnson should have been in line with Moore to be effective, but was 10 meters deeper. I doubt he did that on his own.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

So you think a footballer’s ability can be turned on and off like a tap because of who his manager is?

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Oh dear

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Utter nonsense.

Armenia are ranked 95th in the world.

For a reason.

Last month they list to Latvia, ranked 132.

They outplayed us in both games due to the management.

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Iceland did England

It was hilarious

It happens

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

What do you care? Why are you even involved in this thread?

As you’ve stated many times you don’t give a flying F about international football.

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Why are you on this message board you klutz

Go on Merthyr fc

I find it remarkable that some think that the first thing in a player’s mind when playing for Wales is whether or not they save the manager’s job. Shouldn’t their first thought be qualification for themselves, their families and the fans? I’m sure it is. Why is every game turned into a ‘manager’s future’ question by the media and some fans?

It was poetic, but do you think that all his managerial experience was underdog football, and didn't really have a clue (at that level) how to manage top sides expected to win nearly every game

Same as Page, no idea if it's not roll up your sleeves it's back to the wall boys stuff

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Iceland did England

It was hilarious

It happens

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It was poetic, but do you think that all his managerial experience was underdog football, and didn't really have a clue (at that level) how to manage top sides expected to win nearly every game

Same as Page, no idea if it's not roll up your sleeves it's back to the wall boys stuff

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Originally Posted by Dave Blue

I find it remarkable that some think that the first thing in a player’s mind when playing for Wales is whether or not they save the manager’s job. Shouldn’t their first thought be qualification for themselves, their families and the fans? I’m sure it is. Why is every game turned into a ‘manager’s future’ question by the media and some fans?

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Ridiculous expectations from the media and some of the fans

If page and the players he manages were world beaters he would be running one of the big 6 premier league clubs and the Welsh squad would all be players at those sort of clubs

Some of our fans sound like the entitled English types

If someone better than page comes along after he is hounded out then that's the way it goes

If my aunty had bollocks she would be my uncle

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Ridiculous expectations from the media and some of the fans

If page and the players he manages were world beaters he would be running one of the big 6 premier league clubs and the Welsh squad would all be players at those sort of clubs

Some of our fans sound like the entitled English types

If someone better than page comes along after he is hounded out then that's the way it goes

If my aunty had bollocks she would be my uncle

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Nobody here is suggesting Page or the squad are world beaters

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Originally Posted by City123

Nobody here is suggesting Page or the squad are world beaters

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I hope you are prepared to accept expectation levels are ridiculous ?

At the very least

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Originally Posted by Moodybluebird

Can't argue with much of that Sludge. Two quality central midfielders and a major upgrade on Conor Roberts and we would indeed be a useful side. But with a relatively small pool of players to choose from any success we have will be cyclical and it could be a while before our time comes around again.

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It's hard work on here

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Originally Posted by bluesp

By my reckoning only 3 of our starting 11 are starting regularly for their teams, All those 3 are in the championship. A number of that 11 are not getting a look in at club level, including the keeper and striker. I think we’ve done very well based on the above and it was always going to catch up with us at some point.

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Yep

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You can’t just blame the manager because a player as talented as Johnson produces his club form so rarely in international football. Who played well for Wales yesterday? I suppose Danny Ward did, but I’m struggling to think of anyone else. The team passed the ball really poorly and for all of those criticising Kieffer Moore (who I admit looked like someone who barely plays these days), he had virtually nothing to work off because our crossing was mostly useless - instead, we fed him as if he had the speed of a Johnson or James as he was given long balls into the channels and asked to outpace his marker - that’s not Moore’s game and never will be.

Even someone as reliable as Ben Davies was a long way short of his best yesterday - a team has little chance when so many of their squad are below their best, so, for me, just blaming the manager is too easy. I’m not a huge Page fan, but yesterday was a collective failure whereby too many players failed to show up when it really mattered.

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I think that's an excellent summary

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

Oh dear

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What do you mean oh dear? What I see is a very talented player badly under performing for his country, not only that, he's been doing it for well over a year now. Maybe it's an age thing, but I've never believed in giving an under performing player a free pass because it's all his manager's fault.

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Originally Posted by llan bluebird

Where do you believe Johnson most effective position is?

I would say he is an out-and-out inside forward, closer to a centre forward, than an attacking midfielder like Wilson, they are not like-for-like. Wilson could play 8 effectively, whilst Johnson could/has played "9".

Johnson should have been in line with Moore to be effective, but was 10 meters deeper. I doubt he did that on his own.

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Johnson should have been good enough to have been effective against that defence wherever he played. If it was me, I would have have had him alongside Moore and I'd say his best games for Wales (all in the last Nations Cup campaign for me) were played through the middle.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Iceland did England

It was hilarious

It happens

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Of course 'shocks' can happen.

Wales have been outplayed by Armenia twice.

Due to (IMHO) poor strategy, coaching and management.

Wales have been poor in these qualifiers. Granted not all the players are regulars in their respective club sides but they should be doing better against Armenia.

I'm not a Rob Page fan, he seems like an incredibly nice lad but tactically he's limited and he's incredibly slow in changing any tactics during a game. His decision making Saturday was mystifying.

I'm a proper misery guts mind.

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Of course 'shocks' can happen.

Wales have been outplayed by Armenia twice.

Due to (IMHO) poor strategy, coaching and management.

Wales have been poor in these qualifiers. Granted not all the players are regulars in their respective club sides but they should be doing better against Armenia.

I'm not a Rob Page fan, he seems like an incredibly nice lad but tactically he's limited and he's incredibly slow in changing any tactics during a game. His decision making Saturday was mystifying.

I'm a proper misery guts mind.

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He is a nice bloke, but out of his depth, he's supposed to be the best person to Manage Wales, where will his next managerial job be?

The strange thing about this campaign as far as Page is concerned is that his team has taken 4 points off Croatia but have failed against the less competitive sides. He's overachieved and underachieved.

I think the team is also going through a transition too and have maybe been a little clueless when they are expected to be the more dominant side.

That said. Mooney decided to stick with Page and it's looking like that decision was wrong....at the moment ....in terms of automatic qualification.

They should have a shortlist of managers who they think could improve things and if any of them are available I'd probably get them in to replace Page ASAP ..... ready for the play off in march.

Even if the miracle happened , I'd still be tempted to replace Page. I just think the philosophy, the attitude and the tactics are a bit primitive. It's a bit smash and grab. Not much in the way of self-expression or confidence on the ball. Especially when the pressure is on.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

You can’t just blame the manager because a player as talented as Johnson produces his club form so rarely in international football. Who played well for Wales yesterday? I suppose Danny Ward did, but I’m struggling to think of anyone else. The team passed the ball really poorly and for all of those criticising Kieffer Moore (who I admit looked like someone who barely plays these days), he had virtually nothing to work off because our crossing was mostly useless - instead, we fed him as if he had the speed of a Johnson or James as he was given long balls into the channels and asked to outpace his marker - that’s not Moore’s game and never will be.

Even someone as reliable as Ben Davies was a long way short of his best yesterday - a team has little chance when so many of their squad are below their best, so, for me, just blaming the manager is too easy. I’m not a huge Page fan, but yesterday was a collective failure whereby too many players failed to show up when it really mattered.

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But playing balls into channels for Moore to chase that is the managers fault.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I hope you are prepared to accept expectation levels are ridiculous ?

At the very least

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What do you perceive the expectation levels to be and how are they ridiculous?

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Originally Posted by City123

What do you perceive the expectation levels to be and how are they ridiculous?

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How dare people expect to take more than 1 point in 2 games against a side ranked 97th in the world:hehe:

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

What do you mean oh dear? What I see is a very talented player badly under performing for his country, not only that, he's been doing it for well over a year now. Maybe it's an age thing, but I've never believed in giving an under performing player a free pass because it's all his manager's fault.

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You asked wether a players abiliity changes depending on the manager. I said "oh dear" because that is quite simply a ridiculously naive question from someone who writes match reports and football blogs.

Of course a players influence on the game will depend on the managers tactics and what hes been asked to do by the manager. Hes not someone like Bale who can just float into any area of the pitch and control the game and its evident that Page tactics are simply not set up to get the best out of him.

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Originally Posted by Bald Barry Bastad

But playing balls into channels for Moore to chase that is the managers fault.

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Can you seriously think of any manager who would tell his team to knock balls into the channels for Keiffer Mooreto chase? I suppose if he was up against some spectacularly slow centre backs you might, but you don’t get many of them at international level. However, if they were obeying Page’s instructions on Saturday by so obviously not playing to Moore’s strengths, then, fair enough, he has to go.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Can you seriously think of any manager who would tell his team to knock balls into the channels for Keiffer Mooreto chase? I suppose if he was up against some spectacularly slow centre backs you might, but you don’t get many of them at international level. However, if they were obeying Page’s instructions on Saturday by so obviously not playing to Moore’s strengths, then, fair enough, he has to go.

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So if they were defying his instructions and smashing it long on their own accord when Page didnt want them to do that why the hell wasnt he out on the touchline barking orders for them to stop doing it?

Was it the players decision to leave Moore so isolated? or start with only 3 attack minded players in a game we had to win?

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Originally Posted by Jordi Culé

Of course 'shocks' can happen.

Wales have been outplayed by Armenia twice.

Due to (IMHO) poor strategy, coaching and management.

Wales have been poor in these qualifiers. Granted not all the players are regulars in their respective club sides but they should be doing better against Armenia.

I'm not a Rob Page fan, he seems like an incredibly nice lad but tactically he's limited and he's incredibly slow in changing any tactics during a game. His decision making Saturday was mystifying.

I'm a proper misery guts mind.

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You are not as bad as Hartley , the moribund xxxx

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Originally Posted by City123

What do you perceive the expectation levels to be and how are they ridiculous?

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Well it's football isn't it ?

A lot on here are the same about CCFC

Bulut gets a good squad together which looks at least mid table , we don't turn up v Norwich

The knives come out

That sort of thing

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

How dare people expect to take more than 1 point in 2 games against a side ranked 97th in the world:hehe:

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Did you expect us to beat Croatia ?

No , even you are not that stupid

But we did , despite previously looking poor

We did a side far better than us on paper

That's football

Stick to the strikers club boyo

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

You asked wether a players abiliity changes depending on the manager. I said "oh dear" because that is quite simply a ridiculously naive question from someone who writes match reports and football blogs.

Of course a players influence on the game will depend on the managers tactics and what hes been asked to do by the manager. Hes not someone like Bale who can just float into any area of the pitch and control the game and its evident that Page tactics are simply not set up to get the best out of him.

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A club paid £45 million for Johnson this summer, if you’re telling me that him looking so limited and inconsequential on Saturday was entirely down to Page, then I say Johnson’s not worth that money because a clearly talented player like him is incapable of imposing hi nemself on the defence of a team which I believe is ranked 96th in the world.

Two or three years ago, Rubin Colwill was being picked in Welsh squads ahead of Johnson, but then suddenly he kicked on and was soon clearly the first choice out of the two - watching him struggle so much on Saturday though makes you wonder if, perhaps, the original judgment was correct. I don’t really believe that, but I’m beginning to think that someone like Dan James, who doesn’t have Johnson’s natural talent or flair, is currently a better option for Wales than him because he influences games more than Johnson does.

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Originally Posted by J R Hartley

So if they were defying his instructions and smashing it long on their own accord when Page didnt want them to do that why the hell wasnt he out on the touchline barking orders for them to stop doing it?

Was it the players decision to leave Moore so isolated? or start with only 3 attack minded players in a game we had to win?

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How do you know he wasn’t? It didn’t happen as much in the second half after he’d had fifteen minutes with them.

The problem you and others who are trying to give the players a free pass for Saturday have is that there’s the precedent of the Croatia game to be factored in.just ignoring it won’t work, so let’s go with the theory that the players basically ignored what Page said and turned in one of the best Welsh performances of the last thirty or forty years off their own bats.

The question then arises that, if Croatia was all down to the players, why couldn’t they come up with something similar against an inferior team this weekend?

I’ve said earlier that I’m not a big fan of Page, I think he’s a limited manager at international level, but you can’t just dismiss the Croatia match because you don’t rate him. My own view is that Wales raised their game against a declining opponent and a big factor in that was that they thought Page was being treated unfairly - they were showing their backing for him.

Wales showed against Croatia that they are capable of raising their game to a level which rivals the sides of the Coleman era at times. They’re not as good as those sides, but, equally, they’re not as bad a team as they looked on Saturday. To perform like that in a game with so much riding on it is, I believe, very concerning and there has to be more to the contrast in performances in two games just a month apart (with Johnson fit, we had a stronger squad against Armenia) than the fact the manager isn’t great- questions need to be asked of the players as well.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

How do you know he wasn’t? It didn’t happen as much in the second half after he’d had fifteen minutes with them.

The problem you and others who are trying to give the players a free pass for Saturday have is that there’s the precedent of the Croatia game to be factored in.just ignoring it won’t work, so let’s go with the theory that the players basically ignored what Page said and turned in one of the best Welsh performances of the last thirty or forty years off their own bats.

The question then arises that, if Croatia was all down to the players, why couldn’t they come up with something similar against an inferior team this weekend?

I’ve said earlier that I’m not a big fan of Page, I think he’s a limited manager at international level, but you can’t just dismiss the Croatia match because you don’t rate him. My own view is that Wales raised their game against a declining opponent and a big factor in that was that they thought Page was being treated unfairly - they were showing their backing for him.

Wales showed against Croatia that they are capable of raising their game to a level which rivals the sides of the Coleman era at times. They’re not as good as those sides, but, equally, they’re not as bad a team as they looked on Saturday. To perform like that in a game with so much riding on it is, I believe, very concerning and there has to be more to the contrast in performances in two games just a month apart (with Johnson fit, we had a stronger squad against Armenia) than the fact the manager isn’t great- questions need to be asked of the players as well.

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We clearly don't have a strong spine to the team as we did with Coleman........Williams, ledley , Ramsey, Bale

Throw in a clutch of decent championship standard players and we were a good side

But even our better players are not of 2016 quality now

And page isn't as good a motivator as Coleman clearly was

I think all this knives out nonsense is petulant tbh

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well it's football isn't it ?

A lot on here are the same about CCFC

Bulut gets a good squad together which looks at least mid table , we don't turn up v Norwich

The knives come out

That sort of thing

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Answer the question. What do you perceive the expectation levels to be and how are they ridiculous?

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Originally Posted by City123

Answer the question. What do you perceive the expectation levels to be and how are they ridiculous?

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I have answered the question

Absolutely daft expectation levels

Even if we had England's playing squad people wouldn't be happy

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I have answered the question

Absolutely daft expectation levels

Even if we had England's playing squad people wouldn't be happy

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What are the expectation levels?