I'm sure it is! All seems to be coming back to a big ole conspiracy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
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I'm sure it is! All seems to be coming back to a big ole conspiracy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
Now you're talking!Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
At least we know now that you are arguing from a conspiracy theory perspective. Thanks for making it clear 😊👍Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
No not at all, of course you're twisting things as ever to suit your right wing agenda. There are none so blind as those that refuse to see 😵Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
🤣Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
I thought we had made some progress then!
It would be impossible to make progress with a clown like you 🤡Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
What is interesting is that the positioning and language of the key groups that James has referenced, Mayor, Chief of Police and Prime Minister has moved over time.
Perhaps unsurprisingly the Prime Minister of the recently elected right wing coalition who came to power on an anti-immigration ticket has maintained and hardened its line that this was anti-semitism, pure and simple.
However, the Mayor and the Chief of Amsterdam Police have softened their position calling it a "toxic cocktail" but apportioning responsibility for the cause and effect more broadly than their initial statements. They have produced an authoritative letter chronicling events before, during and after the violence. It is well worth a read. No group comes out of this well and it also shows the political pressure being brought to bare from Israel and elsewhere.
It's opening paragraph gives an insight into the events:
On 8 November, horrifying images shocked the world after the night that Amsterdam had endured. Four days later, anger, fear, and disbelief still prevail. We have seen footage of Israeli football supporters being pursued, attacked, and brutalized; screenshots of antisemitic messages calling for a ‘hunt on Jews’, and videos filled with hate-fueled, racist chants against ‘Arabs’. From the tearing down and burning of a Palestinian flag to targeted assaults on Jewish and Israeli supporters, numerous antisemitic expressions were made. The local authorities (consisting of the mayor, police chief, and chief public prosecutor) explicitly emphasize that violence by one party is never an excuse for violence by another. These events have targeted our city, and citizens.
https://assets.amsterdam.nl/publish/...rmber_2024.pdf
You accept that the video was shown on news channels as local Muslims attacking poor innocent Israeli football fans ?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
If you accept that then you accept that this was in fact a complete lie by the newscaster you ask us to believe?
The video was in fact a film by an independent journalist of .......Israeli thugs attacking Muslim youths ........that's a fact ......you accept this ?
Yes ?
If you therfore accept this then you are accepting that your initial views and comments are completely wrong and based on false information ? Was the views of others that you quote ?
If that's what you are saying .....then we accept your mistake ....it takes a man to accept he makes errors.....well done
Is this , hopefully , your admission that you were wrong ?
Simple question , one word answer
He's arguing from a factual viewpointQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Are you saying that video evidence is now false ?
The latest news is that due to the result of the recent US election the Israeli government is emboldened to seek US support to achieve legal sanction to the annexing of the West Bank. I wonder if the Dutch government will be one of the first in line to endorse this plan?Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
The video of one small part of several days worth of disorder is a snapshot. It feeds into the broader conclusion that authorities in Amsterdam have made.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
It's like pointing to one small part of any riot or incident and pretending it shows the full story. It doesn't.
The authorities have quite clearly said that serious incidents of antisemitism occured alongside other disorder. The latest example of this is given in Cyril's post above.
No one disputes that. That's what I have literally said from the very first post on this thread. I've stuck to that line because all the evidence suggests it's the truth.
I have no idea what your motivation is on this thread. I find it truly bizarre and a touch disturbing tbh, but it seems to keep coming back to some desire to prove that there was no antisemitic incidents when everything points to the fact there was and I dont know why you (and others) can't accept that.
Thugs burning flags, beating up a taxi driver and chanting horrible slogans about dead innocent children is a situation which is very likely to inflame tensions. You can call it anti-Semitism if it fits more snugly with your agenda but some of us see it as the retaliatory demonstration of repugnance at crass misbehaviour.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
My motivation is nothing to do with anti Semitic nonsense .......that's the second time you have mentioned that......I pulled you up on it previously and said where have I suggested you are anti Semitic? .....please don't insult my intelligence as you have just done it again hereQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
This video report .......answer the question you keep dodging
Why was it portrayed as Muslims attacking Israeli fans ?
To be concerned about clear misinformation is attacked as anti Semitic........and there are plenty of people far more important than you who have been guilty of this
The end of the video you time after time keep ignoring is hilarious as it points out that every Tom, dick and Harry is wading in on the side of this complete stitch up .....and it's worth you , even in secret , watching it
I think you will wince though
Of course it will inflame tensions. It doesn't justify arbitrary abuse and violence towards people unconnected to it because of their religion or nationality or anything else!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
Stop going on about the video! Everyone has seen it! It's a snapshot of a lot of events. My god.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
If your intention is nothing to do with trying to suggest nothing antisemitic happened then why are you posting it? Cos that's what everyone involved has concluded. Why can't you accept it?!
It's like Cardiff City losing 3-1 and you showing th video of us scoring and demanding it means we won!
To be fair to JW he's all over the shop and doesn't know who is attacking who hereQuote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
I can forgive him but the major of Amsterdam?
Having said that he is very right wing so , for now , will side with Israel .....but in time who knows ?
No indeed not but of course the same could be said for the slaughter of innocence people unconnected with last year's 7th October attacks!Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I don't dispute that!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
As ive said on here several times I'm talking about what happened in Amsterdam.
You havnt commented on the videoQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
You say you have watched it
If you have you would simply accept your faux pas .....which you should
Or , in your case , talk rubbish till everyone loses the will to bother arguing the toss with a dead weight
So , the video .....
So are weQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Never mind your anti Semitic rubbish
Video footage.....
And as I've said many more times on here I'm talking about the situation in the round. You can't talk about one without the other and really the events in Amsterdam were so trivial compared to those in Gaza they should really be beneath our consideration.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
I don't think you are.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
I watched the video. It was in Owen Jones usual style of Razer like focusing on what he wanted to and ignoring anything else
The video seems to have shown something differ nt to how a media outlet initially reported it. That feeds into the general conclusions from the authorities which overwhelmingly conclude serious antisemitic incidents occured.
Why can't you accept that?
I think he's afraid if he ever conceded his deeply troubling right wing agenda he'd lose the will to live. 😱Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Having read the report I have a different take.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
The events chronicled don't fit with James's assertion that antisemitism occured alongside other disorder. It was clear that the first acts of provocation, violence and intimidation were perpetrated by the Maccabi fans, particularly targetting taxis and taxi drivers (who were likely to have been from Muslim communities).
What followed, according to the report, was retaliation for the attacks and damages to taxis, some of this co-ordinated.
The following day, according to the reports, social media posts encouraging retaliation included antI-semetic sentiments. Even then groups of Maccabi fans were using batons and poles to attack others. Presumably this was why 10 of those arrested were Israeli citizens.
However, sometime in the evening, people began being targetted randomly by people seeking out Jews. It's difficult to call this anything other than anti-semetic, regardless of the events that preceeded it.
It was Owen Jones focussing on the truth. Why do you fear it so much?Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Again. Nothing says right-wing agenda like agreeing with the green-left mayor of Amsterdam does it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
I think we are going around in circles here! I shall leave you and Sludge to your strange conspiracy theory.
Just make sure you send the video ("the video the video!!!") to the Dutch parliament so that they can be as in the know as you guys!
The Mayor of Amsterdam is a she and she is not right wing. You may be confusing her with the Dutch PM!Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
I don't doubt there was an anti-Jewish element to it, just as there was an anti-Arab element and any attack on innocent parties is to be overwhelming condemned. But given the horrors perpetrated in Gaza as we speak is it not understandable some people who identify with the victims become enraged? If this match had been played before the 7th October events I doubt there would be such high instances of anti-Jewish feeling but of course there would always be someQuote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
There's no strange conspiracy theory just your strange perversion of factsQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Just as a point of order Cyril. I do not dispute the starting points at all. I have said (see my second post at the start) that Maccabi fans likely started it.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
My issue has always been to back up the reports of what followed 👍
Anyway, I am checking out of this discussion now as we are just going round in circles.
No problem. I'll just put down your use of the word alongside, rather than after as clumsy use of language!Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Both of them, along with the Dutch monarch, Joe Biden, Ursula von der Leyen, Bibi Netanyahu and a host of other political leaders and news outlets promoted a story of pre-meditated anti semitic attacks on innocent Israeli fans, and littered their accounts with words like 'pogrom' and referenced the anniversary of Kristallnacht as making events even worse. Almost all of them repeated and amplified the Israeli playbook of exceptionalism and victimhood, and in many cases mixed in a large dose of Islamophobia.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
As THE account of what happened it was a lie - and in my opinion it was done deliberately and not out of ignorance. It had a clear political purpose. That is why they were (and are) lying.
The Amsterdam police from the beginning were telling a more complex story.
Since then the mayor of Amsterdam has rowed back, as have a number of news outlets (including the BBC). Almost no other politician - certainly not Biden, van der Leyen, or the far right Dutch Prime Minister - have corrected their initial statements. None of them have denounced the Maccabi Tel Aviv fans for their racist acts and chants, or for starting the violence.
None of us know all the facts and never will. We don't know whether 10% of the Maccabi fans were guilty or 90%. We don't know whether a handful of Dutch people on the streets and on social media were using racist slurs and targeting Jews for being Jews (rather than for being racist thugs who trashed their city) or whether it was widespread. Clearly the incidents were serious - more than normal football hooliganism and its reaction - and there were clear examples of anti semitism.
But the international response to the incidents in Amsterdam were and still are the distortions, misrepresentations, partisan views and downright lies that were peddled in the immediate aftermath, and for the most part are still out there uncorrected. Job done?
Are you seriously asking 'why do politicians lie'?
No , not that video although even I find Owen Jones a bit drabQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
The video I have 3 times asked you to view
The video by NM news , by two journalists , one of them ash shanker
That video .....its precis at the end
Watch that and have your excuses or piss off
Easy to doQuote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
You havnt watched the video thenQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
The one bob posted
Two journalists
No Owen Jones
That one
Watch that one
It's like pulling teeth fair play
You were harping on about anti Semitic Jewish death gangs etc the day I posted that videoQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
It actually shows Jewish far right fans attacking Muslims
I can only think that after having being informed of this you must have lost all your marbles
I'll give him credit on this, he fights to the end but of course even he will concede he's fought a losing battle. I imagine he hates it though so expect him to respond with some quite extraordinary bollocks. I admire his spunk though when he knows he's in a minority of one.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
And another one.
https://youtu.be/DvTyg1kJGzM?si=AdCC2ZqOM3OnvxHT
That is probably the clearest and most comprehensive dismantling of the western media coverage and the sickening hypocrisy of so many lying European and American politicians!Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
Thanks for posting.
It's so insane that they get away with thisQuote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson