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Bernie got 15 Senate votes in favour of ending arms sales to Israel.Quote:
Originally Posted by stevo
Easily defeated but chipping away, making the case, and slowly gaining support as Democrats try to work out what they're for!
The IDF is going to investigate itself again.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
I wonder what new lies we will be treated to this time.
No doubt the Palestinians are to blame for the latest depraved atrocity against themselves - that is what they usually offer up.
It will be nothing to see here.Disgusting the western world sit on their hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
So clearly the IDF were lying
Again
Bollocks to Israel
In 100 years it might have blown itself up
That's life
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn9133z2v30o
They’re a rogue state and should be treated like one.
Seems that the protests against Hamas in Gaza are growing.
https://www.cnn.com/2025/03/25/middl...tam/index.html
There has always been a minority in Gaza who oppose Hamas (with little scope to do anything about it), and there have been previous small protests, interviews and statements where Gazans have blamed Hamas for provoking the Israeli genocide.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
But these latest small but co-ordinated and publicised protests - given the chaos, the starvation, the lack of internet access, the continued displacement - looks like something the Israelis have organised to create positive headlines for them. The western media were allowed in to witness them which hasn't happened before without IDF enabling. The sentiments may be genuine - who knows - but the events appear to be staged.
Kemi Badenoch showing her impeccable political judgment again.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/czjn3071yv3o
Israel has blocked all aid into Gaza for 5 weeks.
The outrage coming from Washington, London, Paris and Berlin is deafening! Sorry, my mistake.... there has been no outrage.
Surely we all want Hamas gone don't we?Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
She's a complete clownQuote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
If Starmer can get stuck into reform and she turns pwople away from the Tories then keep her on !
What we want is peace and a two-state solution.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
And are you suggesting Israel's actions particularly over the last 18 months have been justified?
I think we want the IDF goneQuote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
AmenQuote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
Dismantle it
Peacekeeping troops
https://www.theguardian.com/law/2025...israel-in-gaza
A war crimes complaint against 10 Britons who served with the Israeli military in Gaza is to be submitted to the Met police by one of the UK’s leading human rights lawyers.
Michael Mansfield KC is one of a group of lawyers who will on Monday hand in a 240-page dossier to Scotland Yard’s war crimes unit alleging targeted killing of civilians and aid workers, including by sniper fire, and indiscriminate attacks on civilian areas, including hospitals.
One of the best commentators on Israel/Palestine:
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-moral-outrage
It may seem like life goes on, as does the war on Gaza. It may seem like a defeat has come to pass, with Israel and its allies staring down the public and the entire global order to force through the war. And Donald Trump’s presidency has flooded the zone with multiple shocks, from the economic to the political. But it is a restive, turbulent status quo, because what is happening to many is simply unbearable, and if protest and testimony and confrontation might save even one life or bring forward the end of the war by even one minute, it will continue.
Every corpse, every city pulverised into rubble, every bloodied child exists not in a hopeless land far away, but within people’s human hinterland. Because it is impossible for a world to be shown the daily ravaging of a people and become intimidated or exhausted into habituation. Some may choose to ignore it, or justify it, or even support it, but they can never normalise it.
OutrageousQuote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Thank god we defeated Hitler to ensure this sort of thing never happened again !
Unless you are Israel doing it then carry on , nothing to see , poor Israel
It's called a Free PassQuote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cn7vje365rno
Palestinian detainees released back to Gaza have told the BBC they were subjected to mistreatment and torture at the hands of Israeli military and prison staff, adding to reports of misconduct within Israel's barracks and jails.
One man said he was attacked with chemicals and set alight. "I thrashed around like an animal in an attempt to put the fire out [on my body]," said Mohammad Abu Tawileh, a 36-year-old mechanic.
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In the men's testimony:
They each describe being stripped, blindfolded, cuffed and beaten
Some also say they were given electric shocks, menaced by dogs, and denied access to medical care
Some say they witnessed the deaths of other detainees
One says he witnessed sexual abuse
Another says he had his head dunked in chemicals and his back set on fire
We have seen reports by a lawyer who visited two of the men in prison, and have spoken to medical staff who treated some of them on their return.
The BBC sent a lengthy right of reply letter to the IDF which laid out in detail the men's allegations and their identities.
In its statement, the IDF did not respond to any of the specific allegations, but said it "completely rejects accusations of systematic abuse of detainees".
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Dr Lawrence Hill-Cawthorne, co-director of the Centre for International Law at the University of Bristol, said the treatment the men described was "entirely inconsistent with both international law and Israeli law", and in some cases would "meet the threshold of torture".
Well, at least the BBC are reporting on this now. Strange that they chose to not report on so many other atrocities.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ilian-killings
The Israel Defense Forces’ changing account of its killing of 15 Palestinian medics and civil defence workers is part of a long familiar pattern in high profile cases involving the killing of civilians.
Often, at first, the IDF denies involvement. Sometimes – in the context of Gaza – it suggests one of Hamas’s own rockets fell short, causing the casualties.
Otherwise, it might allege that those killed were either combatants themselves, or collateral damage from the targeting of combatants.
And the case of the Gaza medics is only the latest incident when Israel has altered its account of a high profile killing.
The killing of the celebrated Palestinian American journalist Shireen Abu Akleh, who worked for Al Jazeera, while covering a protest on the West Bank in 2022, saw a similar shifting of explanations.
Initially, then Israeli prime minister Naftali Bennett suggested that Akleh “likely” had been killed by Palestinian fire. A day later the government issued a statement where it decried “hasty” accusations of one of its soldiers being behind the killing as being “misleading and irresponsible”.
Then, under pressure from witness testimony, the IDF conceded she had been shot by an Israeli soldier, saying then that she was not the target but had been hit by accident.
When evidence emerges to challenge the Israeli military’s account, history shows the IDF then changes its story to suggest the circumstances are not the result of military orders or systemic issues but a “mistake” or – rarely – individual, but not organisational, culpability.
And when the IDF does launch an investigation, through the auspices, of its Military Advocate General’s office, the results are often opaque and seldom leading to the most serious charges.
According to analysis conducted by Israeli human rights organisation, Yesh Din, published last year, the mechanism set up the IDF’s general staff to investigate potential war crimes is designed to avoid responsibility while giving the impression that a process is taking place.
An examination by Yesh Din of “all complaints transferred to the military” taking place during major Israeli military campaigns over the previous decade “at least 664 complaints were transferred … for review.”
Of that, the organisation says, “542 (81.6%) incidents were closed without a criminal investigation with “just 41 incidents (6%)” leading to a criminal investigation.
That led Yesh Din to conclude that “the results of Israel’s law enforcement mechanism’s work over the past decade shows that it rarely opens investigations against junior-ranking soldiers and completely refrains from investigating decision makers at the top command levels”.
I’m a Jewish Israeli in the US standing up for Palestine. By Trump’s logic, I’m a terror supporter - Eran Zelnik
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...rotest-fascism
I’ve called the Gaza war a genocide and spoken in favor of sanctions on Israel. I was also in the IDF. I ask the FBI: should you arrest me?
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As a former member of the Israel Defense Forces, I have come a long way. It took me many years of soul-searching to realize that I was complicit in a settler-colonial occupation force and that my best recourse to make amends for that was to be outspoken about my country’s atrocities. As I tried to better understand the terrible tragedy of Zionism – a nationalist ideology that sought to free Jews from oppression only to end up as oppressors in Palestine – I confess to describing concepts such as apartheid, settler colonialism, ethno-nationalism and more. Perhaps even more disturbing from your perspective, I recently employed such concepts as genocide, settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing in a book I wrote about early American history.
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I have long heard stories about the rise of fascism in Europe from my grandparents, all of whom fled Europe and were refugees from antisemitism. The similarities between the actions of this administration and what my grandparents have lived through are unmistakable. I tell them here so that before you choose to arrest me, you will have one more opportunity to decide whether you will go down in history as aiding and abetting the rise of a fascist regime or as someone who refused to be part of another dark episode in this country’s history. Be forewarned: even if you yourself never directly suffer for your crimes, history will judge you.
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As I consider the memory of dear grandmother Rachel, may her memory be a blessing, who grew up in Poland and survived the Holocaust, including enduring a harrowing year in Auschwitz and the death march to Germany, I cannot shake the sense of another parallel. As Hitler and the Nazi party were consolidating power, they appointed sycophants like yourself and so many others to positions of power in the Nazi administration. The most important criterion for Hitler was not that the people in positions of power were competent or even knowledgeable, but that they would be spineless and loyal to him.
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So, Kash Patel, do you want to arrest me and help bring about fascism?
The last sentence of the prior paragraph could easily have been written about DJT. And no I don't have TDS; just open eyes.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
If you read the full piece it is explicitly about the direction of Trump's USA - and the lessons of history.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorcus
https://www.jewishvoiceforlabour.org...cles-for-you_1
It is not news that the IDF lies repeatedly, claiming that whoever they kill—journalist, medic, rescue worker—is a Hamas terrorist and that every school and hospital they bomb is a Hamas command centre. In their eyes even babies are future terrorists. The quickest way to become Hamas is post-mortem, once the Israelis have killed you.
An Israeli air strike has destroyed part of al Ahli Arab Hospital, the last fully functional hospital in Gaza City.
Witnesses said the strike destroyed the intensive care and surgery departments of the hospital.
Video posted online appeared to show huge flames and smoke rising after missiles hit a two-storey building. People, including some patients still in hospital beds, were filmed rushing away from the site.
The Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said it targeted the hospital because it contained a "command and control centre used by Hamas". No casualties were reported, according to Gaza's civil emergency service.
However, one child, who previously suffered a head injury, died as a result of "the rushed evacuation process", according to a statement from the Episcopal Diocese of Jerusalem, which is affiliated to the hospital. The hospital is run by the Anglican Church in Jerusalem.
Surrounding buildings, including St Philip's church, were also damaged, the diocese said.
It added that it was "appalled" at the bombing of the hospital "on the morning of Palm Sunday and the beginning of Holy Week".
Gaza's Hamas-run health ministry said al Ahli Arab Hospital's building was "completely destroyed", leading to the "forced displacement of patients and hospital staff".
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cjr7l123zy5o
The answer - tragically for the people of Gaza - is probably when Hamas are removed from power.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
If that is your answer to the question: "How long will the world tolerate this?'" I seriously doubt that is right. Most of the world does not tolerate it - but is powerless to stop it; as in the UN, the aid agencies, or any of the other people or organisations who have become victims alongside the Palestinians.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
For the USA, Germany and much of the global north Israel/Palestine continues to be the tinderbox where their concerns are dominated by geo-political considerations (Israel as the US client in the region that projects US and other imperialist interests), by the potential for major gas, oil and rare earth resources to be exploited by 'western' companies, as a place where the international arms trade can continue to rack up super profits, by simple anti-Arab racism and in the case of Germany and Austria guilt about the Holocaust leading to a constitutional blank cheque for Israel and systematic gagging of Israel critics, a group of countries and political leaders who are completely anti semitic (like Viktor Orban in Hungary and the white supremacist right) who admire Israel for its overt and ruthless contempt for brown people and international law, and finally an entrenched Christian Zionist lobby that is in senior posts in the Trump administration that echoes Truthpaste: that is cheerleading ethnic cleansing and (not Truthpaste) genocide.
I don't think it is about Hamas any more (if it ever was) for Israel or Israel's backers. Hamas was 'the enemy' in October 2023 but has been massively reduced as a fighting force, even if most of its experienced cadres have been replaced by unarmed teenagers to keep the numbers up. Hamas is a shell of its former self. Israel (and the USA) have recently started to paint a picture of Hamas as rebuilt and back to the numbers and 'threat' of 2023 - but that is pure propaganda to try to justify the current scale of killing.Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesWales
Many people in Israel don't believe the continuing destruction of Gaza and its people is about defeating Hamas. Many (latest polls suggest a majority) don't think a complete military victory is possible; a large minority think the war is continuing because Netanyahu needs a forever war to stay out of gaol; the language of the political and military leadership in Israel has become more and more explicitly about ethnic cleansing and annexation to achieve Greater Israel 'from the river to the sea', and the spectre of a gutted Hamas is a convenient cover for that political and ideological objective.
The countries backing Israel's war on Palestine appear happy to go along with that, and keep the arms and money flowing, and keep playing the 'get out of gaol free' card on behalf of Israel in international forums (from the UN General Assembly to the International Court of Justice). With the exception of Trump's USA most have started to push the Two State Solution mantra (as Biden did briefly last year). Trump doesn't bother. It is now a fiction anyway - there is no practical way of creating a Palestinian state alongside Israel because the facts on the ground (created over the past 30 years) make that an impossibility - even on a Bantustan model. The call for a Two State Solution is just noise to cover continuing complicity in Israel's drive to create a single Jewish supremacist (apartheid) state in the whole of Israel/Palestine, and possibly beyond (southern Lebanon, Syria beyond the Golan and - for Ben-Gvir and Smotrich - into Jordan and the Sinai).
The whole gory charade was really only ever about Lebensraum.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Yes, just literally, I don't think it ends until that happens, and I don't dispute some of what is also said about Israel's illegitimate general claims on the land that they (or some of them more accurately) see as theirs, but I think Hamas, (who are a murderous bunch of antisemitic fanatics let's not forget) being in power gives them a reason to finish the war through to what they see as it's conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
And that sadly is often the way. Wars end when an enemy surrenders or is entirely defeated. Hamas won't surrender and indeed hide amongst their own people, and so it goes on and on. And the people can't escape as neighbours won't have them.
So yeah in a literal sense, I don't see it ending until that happens. It's why personally I think a lot of the demonstrations have been wrong to not focus equally on Hamas in all this, but I don't say that as an invite to be controversial, I just think protesting at Israel is not going to end the suffering earlier tbh.
Israel has finally managed to alienate the Board of Deputies - a consistent and uncritical cheerleader for apartheid in Israel and ethnic cleansing in Palestine, if a bit squeamish about genocide.
They say they can no longer remain silent, although they have been very vocal in support of Israel and against Palestinian right advocates up to now.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ctions-in-gaza
Members of the Board of Deputies, the largest body representing British Jews, have said they can no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent” over the war in Gaza.
In a significant break with the board’s customary support for the Israeli government, the 36 signatories to an open letter published in the FT say “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”.
Since the war began after the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas against Israelis on 7 October 2023, statements by the Board of Deputies of British Jews have been broadly supportive of the Israeli government.
But the letter, signed by about one in eight of the board’s members, is highly critical of recent actions by the Israeli government.
It says: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up and to speak out.”
Last month, after a pause in fighting during which dozens of Israelis held hostage in Gaza were released, the Israeli government “chose to break the ceasefire and return to war in Gaza … Since then, no hostages have returned. Hundreds and hundreds more Palestinians have been killed; food, fuel and medical supplies have once again been blocked from entering Gaza; and we are back in a brutal war where the killing of 15 paramedics and their burial in a mass grave is again possible and risks being normal.
“Such incidents are too painful and shocking to take in, but we know in our hearts we cannot turn a blind eye or remain silent at this renewed loss of life and livelihoods, with hopes dwindling for a peaceful reconciliation and the return of the hostages.
“This most extremist of Israeli governments is openly encouraging violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, strangling the Palestinian economy and building more new settlements than ever … Israel’s soul is being ripped out and we, members of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, fear for the future of the Israel we love and have such close ties to.”
The letter adds: “Silence is seen as support for policies and actions that run contrary to our Jewish values. Led by the families of the hostages, hundreds of thousands of Israelis are demonstrating on the streets against the return to war by an Israeli government that has not prioritised the return of the hostages. We stand with them. We stand against the war … It is our duty, as Jews, to speak out.”
One of the signatories, Philip Goldenberg, a lawyer, said the Israeli government had “absolutely adopted the Trump playbook”, including demonising those who disagreed with it. “That is not what Israel is about,” he told the BBC’s The World at One.
There was a “whole range of views” among British Jews, “and there are those who think we should not have done this”, he said. There were others who shared the views expressed in the letter but “don’t want to put their heads above the parapet”.
What was happening in Gaza was “a total breach of Jewish ethical values”, he added. “More damage is being done to the Zionist project by Netanyahu than Hamas could ever achieve.”
A spokesperson for the Board of Deputies said other members would “no doubt put more emphasis on the fundamental responsibility of Hamas for this ghastly situation and the need to ensure that they are prevented from ever repeating the heinous crimes of 7 October”.
Within the diversity of views among British Jews, “however, there is much unity”, the spokesperson added. The UK Jewish community wanted to see Hamas release the remaining hostages, aid flowing in to Gaza and “definitive progress towards lasting peace and security for Israelis, Palestinians and the wider Middle East”.