Why wouldn’t Asylum Seekers….

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

What fecking movement? It's three words.

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In which case, so to is all lives matter just a mere three words.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

In which case, so to is all lives matter just a mere three words.

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Indeed. Which fails to recognise the troubles black people go through and makes sure white people are included in such a slogan. Misses the point completely.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Indeed. Which fails to recognise the troubles black people go through and makes sure white people are included in such a slogan. Misses the point completely.

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I disagree, but that's fine. To clarify though, the words in lower case are uncontroversial and obvious. The organisation however isn't and shouldn't be beyond criticism

As to whether all of these creates a more racially harmonious society I am extremely doubtful.

What we do know is that surveys on race relations amongst white and black people have nose dived since 2015. At some point you have to ask if the current rhetoric is helping the situation.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1687/race-relations.aspx

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Not worth it mate, this has been going on for years and if people still haven’t grasped the basic fact and would rather pontificate about alt right buzz words than just say that racism is bad then they never will.

In a lot of the world (especially America) it is obvious currently a black life is worth less than a non black one. All black people want is to be treated equally. And certain people would rather stir just say oh but what about non black people, like they really give a shit.

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I think at some point 'saying racism is bad' isn't going to be enough to achieve anything.

I think people are probably discriminated against as much because of wealth/income/social status as they are their race in this country. Do you think you would face more barriers to your own personal success as a wealthy black person or a poor white person? The fact that I have asked that question probably demonstrates what my answer is.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that my main concern would be structural racism that impacts upon life chances but my gut feeling tells me this is as much to do with the black community being poorer and from poorer areas on average than *actual* racism and I think the outcomes with poor white communities are shit as well. That isn't to say that their aren't organisations that appear to have internal issues with race (I am thinking the met police as a frequent example), but for me the key driver here is probably going to be income inequality.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I disagree, but that's fine. To clarify though, the words in lower case are uncontroversial and obvious. The organisation however isn't and shouldn't be beyond criticism

As to whether all of these creates a more racially harmonious society I am extremely doubtful.

What we do know is that surveys on race relations amongst white and black people have nose dived since 2015. At some point you have to ask if the current rhetoric is helping the situation.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1687/race-relations.aspx

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So more recognition that race relations need improving has led to it getting worse. Racists coming out.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

So more recognition that race relations need improving has led to it getting worse. Racists coming out.

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Or..since the rise of identity politics race relations have declined and maybe a new approach is needed?

It's a valid discussion to have and an important topic to discuss

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I think at some point 'saying racism is bad' isn't going to be enough to achieve anything.

I think people are probably discriminated against as much because of wealth/income/social status as they are their race in this country. Do you think you would face more barriers to your own personal success as a wealthy black person or a poor white person? The fact that I have asked that question probably demonstrates what my answer is.

I suppose what I am trying to say is that my main concern would be structural racism that impacts upon life chances but my gut feeling tells me this is as much to do with the black community being poorer and from poorer areas on average than *actual* racism and I think the outcomes with poor white communities are shit as well. That isn't to say that their aren't organisations that appear to have internal issues with race (I am thinking the met police as a frequent example), but for me the key driver here is probably going to be income inequality.

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I’d say both are factors. I listened to a podcast that has a few black American athletes on it and their kids still suffer from racism. Even buying million dollar mansions they were treated differently.

That’s not to say income inequality is not a massive issue but if you had white and black person with the exact same inequality who would have it harder?

People saying all lives matter don’t give a shit about the poor either though .

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

My point was that the debate has become so utterly preposterous that someone felt, admittedly in jest perhaps, that saying 'all lives matter' is comparable to trying to prevent the RNLI from saving drowning people.

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If this is referring to me no that wasn't what I was saying. What I meant was that I'd bet that I bet that when the BLM protests were in the news the people protesting the lifeboats would have been banging on about All Lives Matter.

Here's a Venn Diagram to explain what I'm getting at:

Attachment 4688

If someone can’t comprehend why the origin of all lives matter is disingenuous and why using it purposefully undermines an anti racism message. I doubt that venn diagram will explain anything to them.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I’d say both are factors. I listened to a podcast that has a few black American athletes on it and their kids still suffer from racism. Even buying million dollar mansions they were treated differently.

That’s not to say income inequality is not a massive issue but if you had white and black person with the exact same inequality who would have it harder?

People saying all lives matter don’t give a shit about the poor either though .

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"People who say all lives matter don't give a shit about the poor either".

Jesus. You just make this bigoted stuff up.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

If someone can’t comprehend why the origin of all lives matter is disingenuous and why using it purposefully undermines an anti racism message. I doubt that venn diagram will explain anything to them.

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The made up Venn diagram that comes with no evidence as to its accuracy you mean?

It's like me making up a league table that has Cardiff City on top of the Premier League and claiming that it thus proves my point that Cardiff City are the greatest team in football the world has ever seen. 😂

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The made up Venn diagram that comes with no evidence as to its accuracy you mean?

It's like me making up a league table that has Cardiff City on top of the Premier League and claiming that it thus proves my point that Cardiff City are the greatest team in football the world has ever seen. 😂

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Told you he wouldn’t get it

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

Told you he wouldn’t get it

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No, I get it. It's just stupid.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

It may be. For some people. But the point is you can stand by all lives matter as s solid progressive principle and it doesn't mean you advocate stopping the RNLI saving lives.

The world is nuanced

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Interesting that you talk about nuance, but can't see the very thin double meaning of All Lives Matter.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Or..since the rise of identity politics race relations have declined and maybe a new approach is needed?

It's a valid discussion to have and an important topic to discuss

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You're either a racist or not.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Interesting that you talk about nuance, but can't see the very thin double meaning of All Lives Matter.

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Absolutely.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The made up Venn diagram that comes with no evidence as to its accuracy you mean?

It's like me making up a league table that has Cardiff City on top of the Premier League and claiming that it thus proves my point that Cardiff City are the greatest team in football the world has ever seen. ��

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Well it's not really though is it WalesBales. I gave what was quite clearly an opinion about the protesters and a diagram to show what I was getting at. This other little "THAT'S NOT A FACTUAL DIAGRAM YOU KNOW" tantrum is something you've decided on for your own reasons

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

I’d say both are factors. I listened to a podcast that has a few black American athletes on it and their kids still suffer from racism. Even buying million dollar mansions they were treated differently.

That’s not to say income inequality is not a massive issue but if you had white and black person with the exact same inequality who would have it harder?

People saying all lives matter don’t give a shit about the poor either though .

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Yeah I suppose for me there are three separate issues here, 1. Violence 2. Structural racism preventing an even playing field and then 3. Everything else. In that order. Now that isn't to say that these aren't quite heavily dependent on one another but in terms of caring about peoples experiences, those are the things that would matter most to me.

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Originally Posted by Croesy Blue

If someone can’t comprehend why the origin of all lives matter is disingenuous and why using it purposefully undermines an anti racism message. I doubt that venn diagram will explain anything to them.

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But this is the entire problem, the debate has become centred around token statements. 'All Lives Matter' as a message would have been fantastic before 'Black Lives Matter' emerged, then it became a subtle way to oppose what BLM stood for. So a year + on the world is still debating which slogans are okay, meanwhile it doesn't feel as though any actual progress has been made.

This is the point I have tried and failed to make in the other BLM threads is that the slogan quickly became a screen that companies, sports clubs, politicians and people in general used to gain approval in public whilst in some instances actually being racist, having racist policies and presiding racist internal structures at the very same time. They don't get called out because as a society we only look at the surface and they are kneeling or showing the banner on their website.

I think if you could only think like your average Gammon, who's not really the sharpest knife in the drawer, you would come to realise that the last vestige of his dignity lies in believing he's not the lowest of the low. It's a massive comfort to our friend to firmly believe the black man is bolstering his crumbling status in the world. As long as he believes he's better than a black man then our poor Gammon can sleep at night.

If anything happens which will begin to undermine his secure belief then our Gammon's life becomes problematic.Then there's the fear for his job because he knows he's two a penny and highly expendable. Oh and there's also the ever present insecurity of the perceived genital imbalance he has to contend with as he carefully guards his womenfolk from the charms of the savages. Poor fellow, why should black lives ever matter to him?

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I think if you could only think like your average Gammon, who's not really the sharpest knife in the drawer, you would come to realise that the last vestige of his dignity lies in believing he's not the lowest of the low. It's a massive comfort to our friend to firmly believe the black man is bolstering his crumbling status in the world. As long as he believes he's better than a black man then our poor Gammon can sleep at night.

If anything happens which will begin to undermine his secure belief then our Gammon's life becomes problematic.Then there's the fear for his job because he knows he's two a penny and highly expendable. Oh and there's also the ever present insecurity of the perceived genital imbalance he has to contend with as he carefully guards his womenfolk from the charms of the savages. Poor fellow, why should black lives ever matter to him?

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You said Gammon. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Brilliant stuff

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

You said Gammon. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂 Brilliant stuff

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Thanks I just knew you'd be the one to appreciate it 😂

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

But this is the entire problem, the debate has become centred around token statements. 'All Lives Matter' as a message would have been fantastic before 'Black Lives Matter' emerged, then it became a subtle way to oppose what BLM stood for. So a year + on the world is still debating which slogans are okay, meanwhile it doesn't feel as though any actual progress has been made.

This is the point I have tried and failed to make in the other BLM threads is that the slogan quickly became a screen that companies, sports clubs, politicians and people in general used to gain approval in public whilst in some instances actually being racist, having racist policies and presiding racist internal structures at the very same time. They don't get called out because as a society we only look at the surface and they are kneeling or showing the banner on their website.

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I don't think people really oppose what they stand for per se. Not at a grand level anyway. It's the tactics and rhetoric. Some no doubt oppose both. But to object to BLM is not to support racism. Indeed it's the attachment of such absurd arguments, completely devoid of nuance that make people oppose what many view as radical groups.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Thanks I just knew you'd be the one to appreciate it 😂

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It's brilliant!

I think I said before you should try and get a job at the Socialist Worker. Maybe The Canary is worth a shout too?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

It's brilliant!

I think I said before you should try and get a job at the Socialist Worker. Maybe The Canary is worth a shout too?

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Huh? What's this got to do with racism? Strange fellow!!!