This NHS app

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dml1954

As I have said before, I will willingly download the app and am not worried about the loss of privacy angle. I will do it in the belief that, by doing so, it will assist the country in the control of the virus and speed up us coming out of lockdown and help reduce new cases and deaths. It is a personal choice for everyone, to either download it or not but for those that are considering not doing it just reflect on the fact that, in not participating, you are increasing the chance that you will come into contact with someone who has the disease without you knowing it and thereby catch it yourself or possibly that you could give the disease to someone else who then may become seriously ill or die. If you are prepared to accept the consequences of that just because of some perceived possible loss of privacy then fine, carry on. Cue messages from ETHB, Heisingberg et al calling me a knob, tool, Warnock lover, blind Tory etc etc.

---

Not going to say anything like that in the slightest. You can choose whatever you want to do and believe what you want to believe - nobody has said anything contrary to that since you've started posting on here.

People only call you names when you're blatantly telling others what to think and do - with the added bonus of having your facts wrong on 99% of occasions. You keep accusing others of doing what you keep doing - it's projection.

If you can't see that, then there's no helping you.

As to whether I am "prepared to accept the consequences of that just because of some perceived possible loss of privacy then fine, carry on" - I will personally wait to find out whether this app is going to actually work and how the trial in the IOW goes before deciding what to do. Blindly believing that it's going to work just because the Govt. said so isn't for me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

NHSx has released other elements of their codebase and the world is full of open source software so the answer is no. More eyes on the code is probably likely to have the opposite effect especially (as detailed in the link above) gchq, who have been involved in the production of the app, have a policy of not highlighting vulnerabilities and instead using them to their own advantages.

Are the joint committee on human rights concerns vacuous or valid?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...03321.html?amp

---

The sourcecode has been released.

40,000 downloads so far, about 30% of the population of the island which was chosen because it has an older age demographic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

NHSx has released other elements of their codebase and the world is full of open source software so the answer is no. More eyes on the code is probably likely to have the opposite effect especially (as detailed in the link above) gchq, who have been involved in the production of the app, have a policy of not highlighting vulnerabilities and instead using them to their own advantages.

Are the joint committee on human rights concerns vacuous or valid?
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...03321.html?amp

---

Fair play, being a spy organisation its pretty much what we should expect them to do.
Why do people assume they only spy on eveyone esle? :hehe:
When I was in NI I was working with Special Branch and they were definitely spying on me!!!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dml1954

It is a personal choice for everyone, to either download it or not but for those that are considering not doing it just reflect on the fact that, in not participating, you are increasing the chance that you will come into contact with someone who has the disease without you knowing it and thereby catch it yourself or possibly that you could give the disease to someone else who then may become seriously ill or die.

---

I think if you observe the basic social distancing principles you'll probably be fine, as will everyone you come into contact with. You don't need a phone or an app to stay 2 metres away from other people.

Incidentally, I'm not considering not downloading the app. Like many other people, I already know I'm not going to do it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

I think if you observe the basic social distancing principles you'll probably be fine, as will everyone you come into contact with. You don't need a phone or an app to stay 2 metres away from other people.

---

A car reversing sensor set to 2m and a klaxon would be sufficient

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

A car reversing sensor set to 2m and a klaxon would be sufficient

---

I'm going to manufacture a 2mtr social distancing body suit, adjustable depending on the size of a persons gut.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

A car reversing sensor set to 2m and a klaxon would be sufficient

---

In your quote, the person - an advocate of both social distancing, and going around friend's houses for a chat - claims that all we need to do is keep 2m away and "we'll probably be fine".

I wonder how long people like him think we'll need to do this and only this?

The obvious knock-on effect of that is that those people deemed "at risk" will have to remain in complete lock-down, as they are being advised to do at present.

The purpose of the app is to inform people that someone they may have been in contact with has developed symptoms. That results in pro-activity in that the person who has been in contact with a possibly infected person can self isolate for 48 hours while the infected person awaits results. It also means that, in areas where there is a minor outbreak, we don't have to lock-down en masse. That is, of course, assuming that a significant percentage of the population installs the app.

Here is one possible scenario. Three people are stood in a queue outside a supermarket. The queue is slow moving. Person A is keeping 2 metres from the person in front of her, but person B behind her is much closer. Person C also doesn't know what 2 metres is, and is stood quite close to person B. Person B has the app, as does person A. Person B develops covid 2 days later. Person A is alerted to this, and self isolates. Person C didn't install the app. Person C is not aware that person B has covid. Person C develops covid, but is asymptomatic. Person C is back in the supermarket queue 5 days after their previous visit, sees an old school friend and they chat at a distance that is more like 80 cm apart, not 2 metres apart. The old school friend has, unknown to him, a wife with underlying health conditions. The old School friend goes home, infects his wife and sees her in ICU a week later.

If person C has the app, this scenario does not happen.

The people opposed to the app are giving very few concrete reasons.
1) It MAY mean the Government is gathering data - this is based on no evidence at present
2) It's not going to get enough downloads - maybe not during the current decline of the disease, but I wager that downloads will shoot up if there is another wave/peak.
3) If we carry on social distancing, I'll be ok. Really?


People opposed to vaccines give very few concrete reasons
1) It MAY give my kid autism - This is also based on no evidence
2) Diseases are dying away because sanitation is better so vaccines are pointless - again proved false.

At least the anti-vaxxers, for all their stupidity, have come up with some well thought out, but completely shit, reasons to oppose vaccines - reasons that have required a bit of effort to counter.

The anti-apps group haven't really come up with anything at present. If concerns on privacy prove to be founded on something other than "bloody Tories" then I may join them in not downloading the app. As it stands, I will download the app - anything that may not result in mass lockdowns, parents being stuck at home for months, and people losing lives is worth a chance.

I can almost guarantee that at least some people who "will never download the app" will, at some stage, end up downloading the app, either through fear (a close friend/relative getting sick), or through circumstances (getting fed up of yet another lockdown).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

Here is one possible scenario. Three people are stood in a queue outside a supermarket. The queue is slow moving. Person A is keeping 2 metres from the person in front of her, but person B behind her is much closer. Person C also doesn't know what 2 metres is, and is stood quite close to person B. Person B has the app, as does person A. Person B develops covid 2 days later. Person A is alerted to this, and self isolates. Person C didn't install the app. Person C is not aware that person B has covid. Person C develops covid, but is asymptomatic. Person C is back in the supermarket queue 5 days after their previous visit, sees an old school friend and they chat at a distance that is more like 80 cm apart, not 2 metres apart. The old school friend has, unknown to him, a wife with underlying health conditions. The old School friend goes home, infects his wife and sees her in ICU a week later.

If person C has the app, this scenario does not happen.

---

For a start, I wasn't being entirely serious with my reversing sensor problem.

Also, I don't have much of a problem with the app, but I would much rather Britain have followed the same system as they have in Europe which would enable people from Europe and the UK to travel. I fail to see why we need to have our own app.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

In your quote, the person - an advocate of both social distancing, and going around friend's houses for a chat - claims that all we need to do is keep 2m away and "we'll probably be fine".

I wonder how long people like him think we'll need to do this and only this?

---

Still pretending that you have me on ignore and you don't read my posts? What a complete and utter tool.

I am absolutely, 100% confident that if everyone in this country had behaved exactly as I have since this lockdown began, the virus would be almost completely quashed in UK within a couple of months at most. I have very carefully and deliberately kept my distance from everyone except for my partner since the middle of March. We're now entering the second week of May. It's been an absolute pain in the arse and in many ways I think the way in which the whole episode has been dealt with has been over the top, but nevertheless I've followed the basic principles of social distancing as closely as I can despite having to travel to work and back most days.

I don't like mobile phones. I don't like apps. I don't carry my phone at all times, not even close. I never, ever have the Bluetooth function activated. I never, ever have the location thing activated either, whatever that may be. Mobile phones have unfortunately become a necessity, but mine is used sparingly. My life is in no way dictated to or controlled by it.

I despise the Tories. I wouldn't trust any of the wankers as far as I could throw them. I also despise the Labour Party, or at least I did while they had the utterly hopeless Corbyn at the helm. Hopefully, the new fella will turn things around for them, but I won't hold me breath. My views regarding this app are not political.

Judging by everything I've heard and read about it, I think the app idea is in not only pie in the sky but a monumental waste of time and money. If that belief makes me some sort of enemy as far as people like you are concerned, then so be it. I really couldn't give a ****. I am totally comfortable with how my own behaviour has been throughout this health crisis. I've observed the principles of social distancing from day one, I've not put a single person in any kind of danger and I've put myself in harm's way on a regular basis so that more than forty of my colleagues can work from home throughout the lockdown. If somehow it turns out that's not good enough, then so be it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

In your quote, the person - an advocate of both social distancing, and going around friend's houses for a chat - claims that all we need to do is keep 2m away and "we'll probably be fine".

I wonder how long people like him think we'll need to do this and only this?

The obvious knock-on effect of that is that those people deemed "at risk" will have to remain in complete lock-down, as they are being advised to do at present.

The purpose of the app is to inform people that someone they may have been in contact with has developed symptoms. That results in pro-activity in that the person who has been in contact with a possibly infected person can self isolate for 48 hours while the infected person awaits results. It also means that, in areas where there is a minor outbreak, we don't have to lock-down en masse. That is, of course, assuming that a significant percentage of the population installs the app.

Here is one possible scenario. Three people are stood in a queue outside a supermarket. The queue is slow moving. Person A is keeping 2 metres from the person in front of her, but person B behind her is much closer. Person C also doesn't know what 2 metres is, and is stood quite close to person B. Person B has the app, as does person A. Person B develops covid 2 days later. Person A is alerted to this, and self isolates. Person C didn't install the app. Person C is not aware that person B has covid. Person C develops covid, but is asymptomatic. Person C is back in the supermarket queue 5 days after their previous visit, sees an old school friend and they chat at a distance that is more like 80 cm apart, not 2 metres apart. The old school friend has, unknown to him, a wife with underlying health conditions. The old School friend goes home, infects his wife and sees her in ICU a week later.

If person C has the app, this scenario does not happen.

The people opposed to the app are giving very few concrete reasons.
1) It MAY mean the Government is gathering data - this is based on no evidence at present
2) It's not going to get enough downloads - maybe not during the current decline of the disease, but I wager that downloads will shoot up if there is another wave/peak.
3) If we carry on social distancing, I'll be ok. Really?


People opposed to vaccines give very few concrete reasons
1) It MAY give my kid autism - This is also based on no evidence
2) Diseases are dying away because sanitation is better so vaccines are pointless - again proved false.

At least the anti-vaxxers, for all their stupidity, have come up with some well thought out, but completely shit, reasons to oppose vaccines - reasons that have required a bit of effort to counter.

The anti-apps group haven't really come up with anything at present. If concerns on privacy prove to be founded on something other than "bloody Tories" then I may join them in not downloading the app. As it stands, I will download the app - anything that may not result in mass lockdowns, parents being stuck at home for months, and people losing lives is worth a chance.

I can almost guarantee that at least some people who "will never download the app" will, at some stage, end up downloading the app, either through fear (a close friend/relative getting sick), or through circumstances (getting fed up of yet another lockdown).

---

Who controls the data? The NHS have some serious form when it comes to Data Breaches.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Still pretending that you have me on ignore and you don't read my posts? What a complete and utter tool.

I am absolutely, 100% confident that if everyone in this country had behaved exactly as I have since this lockdown began, the virus would be almost completely quashed in UK within a couple of months at most. I have very carefully and deliberately kept my distance from everyone except for my partner since the middle of March. We're now entering the second week of May. It's been an absolute pain in the arse and in many ways I think the way in which the whole episode has been dealt with has been over the top, but nevertheless I've followed the basic principles of social distancing as closely as I can despite having to travel to work and back most days.

I don't like mobile phones. I don't like apps. I don't carry my phone at all times, not even close. I never, ever have the Bluetooth function activated. I never, ever have the location thing activated either, whatever that may be. Mobile phones have unfortunately become a necessity, but mine is used sparingly. My life is in no way dictated to or controlled by it.

I despise the Tories. I wouldn't trust any of the wankers as far as I could throw them. I also despise the Labour Party, or at least I did while they had the utterly hopeless Corbyn at the helm. Hopefully, the new fella will turn things around for them, but I won't hold me breath. My views regarding this app are not political.

Judging by everything I've heard and read about it, I think the app idea is in not only pie in the sky but a monumental waste of time and money. If that belief makes me some sort of enemy as far as people like you are concerned, then so be it. I really couldn't give a ****. I am totally comfortable with how my own behaviour has been throughout this health crisis. I've observed the principles of social distancing from day one, I've not put a single person in any kind of danger and I've put myself in harm's way on a regular basis so that more than forty of my colleagues can work from home throughout the lockdown. If somehow it turns out that's not good enough, then so be it.

---

I agree with you almost 100%, except for using the app. i'll use it if it helps.

There are far to many arguments that are based in political bias from both sides regarding everey little bit of information or disinformation that comes out. The welsh governemt is as bad and as incompetent as the Westminster government but I think part of that is being in power for so many years with no real prospect of being challenged has made them slothful and careless, whereas the others are suffering from their own austerity and failure oto update/maintain the pandemic emergency stocks. Neither crew have any reason to feel proud of themselves.
This is exaserbated by attempts to cover up mistakes from both governments. And like you, nothing anyone says on here, so called eperts or not, is going to change my (or anyone elses) view of things so I just carry on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

Who controls the data? The NHS have some serious form when it comes to Data Breaches.

---

What data is being collected?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by xsnaggle

I agree with you almost 100%, except for using the app. i'll use it if it helps.

There are far to many arguments that are based in political bias from both sides regarding everey little bit of information or disinformation that comes out. The welsh governemt is as bad and as incompetent as the Westminster government but I think part of that is being in power for so many years with no real prospect of being challenged has made them slothful and careless, whereas the others are suffering from their own austerity and failure oto update/maintain the pandemic emergency stocks. Neither crew have any reason to feel proud of themselves.
This is exaserbated by attempts to cover up mistakes from both governments. And like you, nothing anyone says on here, so called eperts or not, is going to change my (or anyone elses) view of things so I just carry on.

---

Because you have quoted him, I can see what The Lone Gunman has written.

It starts off with an incredible dose of self belief that no-one would place him on ignore. I have, purely because he adds little to any discussion. Disagree with him, and it becomes a name calling exercise.

Unfortunately, this forum doesn't do screenshots. It does do uploads though.

His response to me starts with a basic ad hominem attack, and concludes with how he is more right than everyone else, and shit, if you disagree with him, **** you.

He highlights his "good" behaviour, but omits his recommendation that people can visit friends for a drink!

It's tantrum stuff, basically, and his refusal to use the app is based on very little that is factual. -
It's interesting how he has "put himself in harm's way" and yet not put "a single person in danger". I've tried working it out, but it probably needs the logic of a person who boycotts Cardiff City whilst going to watch Cardiff City. :hehe:

Attachment 3798

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

For a start, I wasn't being entirely serious with my reversing sensor problem.

Also, I don't have much of a problem with the app, but I would much rather Britain have followed the same system as they have in Europe which would enable people from Europe and the UK to travel. I fail to see why we need to have our own app.

---

To be frank, travel to and from Europe would make the use of any tracing app pointless. It's going to be difficult enough to get it to work within the borders of the UK. Especially with ill-founded skepticism based on nothing more than "Tories = BAD". I hate the Tories as much as the next person, but I can rise above that during a crisis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

What data is being collected?

---

I would have thought it'll be facts and statistics, the usual stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

I would have thought it'll be facts and statistics, the usual stuff.

---

So nothing that could personally identify you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

Because you have quoted him, I can see what The Lone Gunman has written.

It starts off with an incredible dose of self belief that no-one would place him on ignore. I have, purely because he adds little to any discussion. Disagree with him, and it becomes a name calling exercise.

Unfortunately, this forum doesn't do screenshots. It does do uploads though.

His response to me starts with a basic ad hominem attack, and concludes with how he is more right than everyone else, and shit, if you disagree with him, **** you.

He highlights his "good" behaviour, but omits his recommendation that people can visit friends for a drink!

It's tantrum stuff, basically, and his refusal to use the app is based on very little that is factual. -
It's interesting how he has "put himself in harm's way" and yet not put "a single person in danger". I've tried working it out, but it probably needs the logic of a person who boycotts Cardiff City whilst going to watch Cardiff City. :hehe:

Attachment 3798

---

why are you teling me this, he doesn't have you on ignore so he can see if you post :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

Because you have quoted him, I can see what The Lone Gunman has written.

It starts off with an incredible dose of self belief that no-one would place him on ignore. I have, purely because he adds little to any discussion. Disagree with him, and it becomes a name calling exercise.

Unfortunately, this forum doesn't do screenshots. It does do uploads though.

His response to me starts with a basic ad hominem attack, and concludes with how he is more right than everyone else, and shit, if you disagree with him, **** you.

He highlights his "good" behaviour, but omits his recommendation that people can visit friends for a drink!

It's tantrum stuff, basically, and his refusal to use the app is based on very little that is factual. -
It's interesting how he has "put himself in harm's way" and yet not put "a single person in danger". I've tried working it out, but it probably needs the logic of a person who boycotts Cardiff City whilst going to watch Cardiff City. :hehe:

Attachment 3798

---

How can any of us be 'factual' until this App is up and running? At the present time it's just individual or collective preconceptions. There are arguments for and against, obviously. As long as people have the correct information at hand and there is an ability to make an informed decision then that's what people will do.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

How can any of us be 'factual' until this App is up and running? At the present time it's just individual or collective preconceptions. There are arguments for and against, obviously. As long as people have the correct information at hand and there is an ability to make an informed decision then that's what people will do.

---

What information do you have to hand that makes you think installing this app is a bad idea? It would help if you told me, maybe you'd be doing me a favour and I would also not install the app. I am completely open minded to this, but the current facts are that the personal data this app collects is so minimal it would struggle to identify you. Add in the protections of GDPR and I feel quite safe.

Incidentally, we are all posting this on a site that is marked "NOT SECURE". :hehe: It's also a forum that downloads cookies even when you explicitly ask for them not to be downloaded. But - yes - let's avoid a Tory App because someone said it is not safe despite having not seen any of the sourcecode (until about 5 hours ago). :hehe::hehe:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

So nothing that could personally identify you?

---

Wouldn't it have to identify you? That's the point, isn't it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tuerto

Wouldn't it have to identify you? That's the point, isn't it?

---

No!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CCFCC3PO

It's interesting how he has "put himself in harm's way" and yet not put "a single person in danger". I've tried working it out, but it probably needs the logic of a person who boycotts Cardiff City whilst going to watch Cardiff City.

---

Of course you can't work it out, because you've almost certainly done nothing since the lockdown began other than sit in the house, hide behind your computer screen and pontificate about how everyone else should be behaving.

With one other colleague, I've been working in an office almost every day so that the rest of my colleagues can work at home. I volunteered to do so because it suits me and it makes sense on a number of levels given my personal circumstances and the personal circumstances of most of my colleagues. Me being in the office most days of the week means I have to take in and deal with the post, deal with regular courier deliveries, deal with various tradesmen (we were three quarters of the way through a full office refurb when the lockdown began, so there is still some work to be done), deal with our security guards and often use public transport.

My bosses and my colleagues are grateful that I'm doing what I'm doing because it means they can work from home and they don't have to come into contact with any postmen, tradesmen or security guards, and they don't have to travel on public transport. I do all of those things almost every working day and while I'm as careful as I can possibly be in terms of social distancing, others often are not.

You keep banging on about my comments regarding the lad who told us he was occasionally sitting in a garden having a drink with his mate of an evening while observing the social distancing criteria, but you've yet to explain precisely why you find such an action to be off limits. I very firmly believe that as long as people avoid close contact with each other, then it doesn't matter a jot where they are. That, to me, is common sense. The setting is not important, but the behaviour is. Apparently, to you it's some sort of a crime, but you've failed to explain why.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by The Lone Gunman

Of course you can't work it out, because you've almost certainly done nothing since the lockdown began other than sit in the house, hide behind your computer screen and pontificate about how everyone else should be behaving.

With one other colleague, I've been working in an office almost every day so that the rest of my colleagues can work at home. I volunteered to do so because it suits me and it makes sense on a number of levels given my personal circumstances and the personal circumstances of most of my colleagues. Me being in the office most days of the week means I have to take in and deal with the post, deal with regular courier deliveries, deal with various tradesmen (we were three quarters of the way through a full office refurb when the lockdown began, so there is still some work to be done), deal with our security guards and often use public transport.

My bosses and my colleagues are grateful that I'm doing what I'm doing because it means they can work from home and they don't have to come into contact with any postmen, tradesmen or security guards, and they don't have to travel on public transport. I do all of those things almost every working day and while I'm as careful as I can possibly be in terms of social distancing, others often are not.

You keep banging on about my comments regarding the lad who told us he was occasionally sitting in a garden having a drink with his mate of an evening while observing the social distancing criteria, but you've yet to explain precisely why you find such an action to be off limits. I very firmly believe that as long as people avoid close contact with each other, then it doesn't matter a jot where they are. That, to me, is common sense. The setting is not important, but the behaviour is. Apparently, to you it's some sort of a crime, but you've failed to explain why.

---

Not all heroes wear capes

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by insider

Not all heroes wear capes

---

#clapforTLG

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by insider

Not all heroes wear capes

---

All heroes download apps, apparently.