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I've enjoyed reading this thread.
Some excellent points of view and also some good banter.
No one can demonstrate and prove the existence of God. Atheists know that and believers who say they can are lying or deluded.
I don't think that its even a believers job to convince people there's a God.
As someone who does believe in God but sees the absolute insanity of it and also the damage and manipulation of religion, I will probably bring negative response from both camps.
I think that religion has both been a cause of good in the world and also the cause of much hatred, death, abuse and corruption. All can be true.
The holy scripture is full of poetic beauty and also some shockingly absurd things.
I find the conservative evangelicalism in the US absolutely abhorrent. But I also see the kindness, gentleness, wisdom and care of some people of faith inspiring.
At the end of the day it's everyone's right to believe and not to believe... And I think everyone, believer or not, should be on a journey to discover their own beliefs or non-belief and many shades in-between.
The damage is done when people are indoctrinated into certain beliefs that removes critical thinking, logic, care and kindness from the equation. Religion is about controling people.
But someone with a quiet, personal faith that is centred on love and kindness surely is a good thing.
If there is a God, and I believe their is, I think he and his son left the building of religion a long time ago.
I don't believe in God, or gods. He, it or they are a human invention to explain the unknown and give comfort in the face of inevitable death.
But there is a difference between faith in a God and religion. Both are human inventions, but organised religion has been a political and social construct for at least 3000 years (at least in the Abrahamic traditions) and have been responsible for many of the worst crimes and abuses in history. Faith on the other hand can be a very personal ethical code - and useful for defining a set of values and customs that are usually positive - as long as they are not projected onto other people.
I rejected supernatural faith and organised religion when I was 12. I was part of a group of 'young people' ho took part in a structured Congregationalist Church membership programme - six weeks for one night a week with the minister. At then end of that I was out! But I have always had friends and family members around who were believers - usually of the barely questioning type who go along with the stories and the rituals as a social comfort blanket, but a few who agonised about the big questions all their lives. My dad - now dead - went to Church every week and lead a lot of mid-week discussion groups. He hated religion. Described himself as a Secular Christian and (with a group of likeminded people) as The Heretics. I doubt he believed in heaven or hell, God or the Devil. He regarded most of it as metaphor but to my bemusement it came to dominate his life. After he retired he even went on to get a degree and doctorate in theology he was that obsessed!
Straight atheism, simple humanism, is a much more rational and stress free way to live. We are born, we live, we will die - and on the journey we should try to use our opportunities and talents to make the world a bit better according to our own view (not one imposed by a religious or political authority) of what is good and what is bad.
Both yours and African Bluebirds posts are pretty much what i was trying to say. Both excellent posts, they include the nuances that i believe exist with having faith and how it manifests itself in many different ways. My upbringing was religious, i rejected it quite early on, for a time i was prepared to throw arguments at people who had faith, even antagonising them to the point of anger and a break down in communication and understanding. I realised that all i was doing was contributing towards everything i disliked about religion. I realised that it isn't straight forward and most people with faith don't have the answers i was looking for, Neither should they. Maturity led me to understand that faith can mean whatever a person feels at any given time, and it wasn't my place to belittle or criticise those emotions.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
:hehe: What's his quote-fail tally at currently?Quote:
Originally Posted by delmbox
Very good posts from African Bluebird, John 1959 and Tuerto. We have to be thankful that the majority of posters on this board do not follow the cult of Annism and its seven gospels.
It has just occurred to me that, statistically, atheists and most believers in deities have more things in common regarding belief systems that you think:
An atheist doesn't believe in the tens of thousands of religions that exist or have existed throughout history on planet Earth.
A believer doesn't believe in the tens of thousands of religions that exist or have existed throughout history on planet Earth - except one.
By the way, if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe those beings are unlikely to believe in any of our local gods.
This must be a record, 21 pages in and nobody has thrown any insults-On a religious thread! If god did miracles........ :hehe:
I will resist the temptation to suggest that you go forth and multiply :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tuerto
:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
Quote:
Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird
Thank you African Bluebird, spot on, IMO the best, most balanced post in this thread. Ironically Jesus, (who the OP describes as a 2000 year old myth and dismissed by others as a pure fantasy figure) was anti-organised religion. I think if I was going to create a person (fantasy or otherwise) to initiate or promote a controlling religion, Jesus would not be my first choice! I think he would be embarrassed to see what passes for Christianity in some quarters if he came back today.
37. Would be in the 40's if he hadn't been illQuote:
Originally Posted by Heisenberg
Jesus Christ, will you two leave it out for God’s sake, I swear on the bible you’re a pair of devils and that’s gospel!!!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by delmbox
We shouldn't really be slagging rival message boards...Quote:
Originally Posted by pomeroy
Tuerto. your comment about the middle ground made me smile.
It reminded me of Dave Allen. He always used to make jokes about God and one day he was asked by someone why he took the mickey ou of god but never out of the devil.
His reply was class. He Said, "I don't beleive in God but I may be wrong and if god exists so does the devil, and there is no sense in pissing off both of them." :hehe:
For 5 years I sat opposite and face-to-face a splendid and intelligent colleague who became a good friend. He was then (and probably still is) a part-time lay preacher and I would describe him as a fundamentalist Christian in that he believes in the literal reading of The Bible (talking snake, Adam and Eve etc) and has moved churches if they waver from that line.
We engaged in so many debates about religion (which was far more central to his life than most people) but neither of us persuaded the other to move an inch to the other's point of view, which was fine and he is someone I have enormous respect for.
However, he used to refer to those Christians who interpret any stories in the Bible as allegory (rather than literal truth) as being of the 'Pick and Mix' variety. He could see that my stance was clearly defined and consistent and, strangely enough, I could say the same of his perspective. It was all those in the middle ground that confused the issue :-)
I have to say that he is very decent chap and I didn't realise for about three years that he was paying, despite not being that well off himself, for the schooling of African boy throughout the lad's life, albeit in a church school. My friend was too humble to wear such charity on his sleeve, as it were.
Visiting my friend and his family was always a lovely experience and they were such sweet people that they made The Walton's look like The Krays. Sadly for my friend, his oldest son left the nest to go to Uni and study engineering - and eventually informed his dad that he no longer believed in The Bible. It has devastated the family.
much to the other boards disappointment the word is not ANNISm, but ANNIMISMQuote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
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Originally Posted by xsnaggle
No it’s Animism where the seven holy books all start with “ I was told “ or “ I have it on good authority “ and the subsequent passages are accepted as literal truth by the disciples.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
I agree apart from one N or two. Originally you mentioned annism, which TBG picked up onQuote:
Originally Posted by pomeroy
Yep surely if you do wrong and go to hell he would welcome you with open arms,well done my man.Quote:
Originally Posted by xsnaggle
Not to a life of pain.
I agree with much of what you say. I don't think Jesus was anti-organised religion, he was a rabbi and celebrated in the traditional way. His disagreements with the Pharisees stemmed from the fact that they were more concerned about ceremony than content.....[I]They do all their deeds to be seen by others....they love the place of honour at feasts and the best seats in the synagogue...."Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
I feel he was a bit of a radical and history shows that he upset the establishment but for good reason..
In this section of the gospel he goes on to say..When you give to the needy sound no trumpet before you..reminded me of TBG comments his Christian friend.
Agree, Jesus was obviously a Socialist, i knew that you'd see the light some day :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
If we are given free will by God it either exists outside of God and as such makes him redundant or sidelined in his own (supposed) creation, or it's all part of God's plan and as such is not free will. If God created everything then it's the latter.
I'm not anti-religion - much good work is done by the church, whatever its flavour - but it would be futile to demand its demise. We are tribal, have an egotistical need for "meaning" and have a survival instinct, so we were bound to make up this kind of stuff to make us feel better.
Apparently, scientists reckon we understand 5% of the universe so to jump to conclusions about its origins seems a tad impetuous. In a way, you could say creating gods from our experience is rather reductive.
What a fantastic post!!Quote:
Originally Posted by AfricanBluebird
👍👍
Sorry I got carried away. It is Annisism. In this respect I am intrigued as to what happened to the principal acolyte Carl or “ The fans favourite “. I hope he has not become Annisism’s Judas Iscariot.Quote:
Originally Posted by lisvaneblue
People have talked about Jesus saying this or that and according to the Bible and it says here etc
But thats nothing
There is evidence of Greek civilizations
Of the Egyptians
There is evidence everywhere of the romans in Britain
But apart from this book can a Christian provide evidence that God exists
Not I know , that's all what matters etc
Evidence
For example if I have a headache I go to the chemist and he or she says I suggest paracetamol , an hour later , after a rest , my headache has gone
My minor aches and pains , paracetamol is a scientifically , evepidence based treatment , based on fact ......based on evidence
So if someone can provide evidence of what essentially has no more basis of reality that flying teapots then great , I will be the first down the church to pray forgiveness for my sins
I am not interested in chapter 17 of the bible , thats not fact or evidence
With respect Sludge, if solid evidence was provided...your precedence would be to go ad hominem all guns blazing.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Anyway, anyone willing to be as robust in their atheistic convictions regarding Islam as they are to Christianity?
Etiez-vous Charlie?
There's a bloke over the road who regularly collects money and food and clothing donations to give to the poor and homeless , which his church distributes . He is a massive Christian.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue
Hes a decent , kind guy and I always pop over with food and stuff . I am also a decent and kind guy but I am not a Christian.
I think people who think God is one big fairy tale can be as kind and as decent , if not more so , than Christians and in many cases more so that the Christians
This bloke is a nice bloke but several times he's invited me to his church and also has sent me links to the alpha course which in case you dont know is quite a creepy way of converting and brainwashing people into Christianity. I don't think he quite understands it but I know the score .
I have often told him there may well be a god but I want proof before I spend Sunday morning in a church . I have asked him for evidence that worshipping God, Jesus etc and repenting my sins will be worth my while but all he does is avoid the question and quote stuff from the bible at me . He may as well read a swansea city programme from 1976 to me .
Like all other Christians he will only convert the poor , uneducated and vulnerable . Its not coincidence that around 96 percent of people who are scientists or have a scientific learning have no faith in God.
As for criticising all religion , including Islam , I do not agree with all he says but the work of Sam Harris , particularly letters to a Christian nation is an enlightening read . Of all the Western countries America is the one most tainted and influenced by the so called word of God. Its worrying in my view .
Quite a response....ultimately and predictably having a bit of a pop at America in lieu of anything constructive or relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Would you be brave enough to wear a metal shirt of one of your favorite bands if it had a cartoon of the most prevalent Islamic prophet on it?
Why are the more religious members of this board also the more right wing members of this board? Seems a complete disconnect between the two ideologies to me.
I know a lot of the more "religious nuts" heavily lean right because of abortion but to me a decent and intelligent religious person could never lean to the right because it's so far removed from the religious teachings they believe so ardently.
Gods Covid intervention
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55409693
So proof he is watching
And yes he's right wing leaning .
Its entirely constructive and relevant which is probably why you don't like it . The USA is fundamentally anti Islamic yet has some of the most extreme Christians residing on its land .Quote:
Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue
As for wearing a metal shirt with a cartoon of Mohammed on it , I don't have anything to do with metal bands that have that sort of merchandise . I never seen it . And I have never seen any anti Christian t shirts either. And as I have said before I think religion is daft but I respect the right of people to believe in it , I just want proof that God exists .
Quite .Quote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue
Loads of tories vote for a government that slashes aid to the poor yet go to church every Sunday.
Guilt .
People waiting for some old bloke to tell them its ok to get jabbedQuote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
Various faith communities around the world ditto
Millions of people make the journey to the Vatican, millions to mecca
I respect the right of them to do it but I think they are deluded
That's what I don't understand, it must take a lot of cognitive disonance to be able to reason with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Also the same people who seem to be anti immigration/refugee too, very strange.
How can you be religious but such a bigot? How does that line up in your head?Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
we don't want immigration and people fleeing persecution over here thank you very much .......but on Sunday the vicar is going to tell us how we should love everybody and be good samaritans and help others and we will all sing songs about the Lord and how we should be good and follow JesusQuote:
Originally Posted by Croesy Blue
But we are going to vote for a party that believes in the individual , not society and that charity begins at home 🙄
A Christian AND a Tory ? I am sorry the computer says no
Because IF the bible is to be believed then surely Jesus was an all round good bloke , kind , caring , fed the poor and respected others and forgave them if they did wrong ?
He was clearly a Liberal or a socialist , if he existed
You really are a muddled thinker Sludge. So you can't be a Christian and a Tory you say? Where's the evidenceQuote:
Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY
Jesus was a good bloke you say, so you know what we did to him? We nailed him to a tree, speared his stomach and left him to die.
You trust paracetamol because it cures your headache you say. If I explained the pharmacological action of the drug at cellular level you'd say I was talking a lot of unbelievable nonsense, just like you say about the bible.
If you are going to judge something you need to consider the evidence from both sides in an unbiased way.
And do you think the NASA rover has landed on Mars or is it just a big con, because all the video evidence could be faked? Or do you have faith in the people at NASA that what they are saying is true
This is complete bollocks there's genuine evidence for how this works ffs.Quote:
You trust paracetamol because it cures your headache you say. If I explained the pharmacological action of the drug at cellular level you'd say I was talking a lot of unbelievable nonsense, just like you say about the bible.
We?Quote:
Jesus was a good bloke you say, so you know what we did to him? We nailed him to a tree, speared his stomach and left him to die.
Again genuine evidence of this existsQuote:
And do you think the NASA rover has landed on Mars or is it just a big con, because all the video evidence could be faked?
You can be but based on the teachings of the bible it doesn't make any sense unless you have a complete cognitive disconnect. TBH if you are equating evidence for the existance for god with evidence for the mars rover/cell microbiology I can see how you can manage that disconnect.Quote:
You really are a muddled thinker Sludge. So you can't be a Christian and a Tory you say? Where's the evidence