The War starts Putin announces "Military Operation" in Ukraine. Explosions heard in Kyiv

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Originally Posted by az city

So you want the UK to declare war on Russia?

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Nobody has declared war, except Russia.
Should we just change our FB profiles and fly Ukrainian flags in support?
The UK AND the rest of the Nato members, need to step in and push them back.

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Originally Posted by az city

Peace be with you, too. Chill out. Read the post immediately after.

Actually, Brexit had a major effect on me. I was intending to go back to France to work and then retire.

Just for the record, I don't think what I posted was "shite". You may feel any criticism of one's nation is unacceptable, I don't. I think it's healthy. Have you not seen there have been 2K+ arrests in Russia of anti-war protesters? Your logic points to the Russian authorities being justified.

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My point is that all the people who regularly slag off the UK could easily go somewhere else but don't. Unlike the people of ukraine who have nowhere to go. I don't agree with everything this country does but I know people in the EU who have told me that bexit or not if they were to they had to go home they'd have to be dragged kicking and screaming because UK is far and away better than where they were born If people like sludge think this place is so bad I'd love to know where they would prefer to live.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

My point is that all the people who regularly slag off the UK could easily go somewhere else but don't. Unlike the people of ukraine who have nowhere to go. I don't agree with everything this country does but I know people in the EU who have told me that bexit or not if they were to they had to go home they'd have to be dragged kicking and screaming because UK is far and away better than where they were born If people like sludge think this place is so bad I'd love to know where they would prefer to live.

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This is kind of thing that annoys me. Bloke talking absolute bullshit to try and use this situation to make our country (his own country!!) look bad when people are putting their lives on the line in Ukraine for theirs.

And the same old 'FBPE' types lap it up. But it's rubbish.

https://twitter.com/chrishoar/status...21466869727232

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

This is kind of thing that annoys me. Bloke talking absolute bullshit to try and use this situation to make our country (his own country!!) look bad when people are putting their lives on the line in Ukraine for theirs.

And the same old 'FBPE' types lap it up. But it's rubbish.

https://twitter.com/chrishoar/status...21466869727232

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Jimbo, you've lost me. Are you saying you disagree with dissent because it's "unpatriotic"?

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

My point is that all the people who regularly slag off the UK could easily go somewhere else but don't. Unlike the people of ukraine who have nowhere to go. I don't agree with everything this country does but I know people in the EU who have told me that bexit or not if they were to they had to go home they'd have to be dragged kicking and screaming because UK is far and away better than where they were born If people like sludge think this place is so bad I'd love to know where they would prefer to live.

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Snags, do you think Sludge should have his subjectship stripped from him because he is critical of Westminster? That sounds like a totalitarian regime ... like Russia.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

They Did it!!

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I'm pleased about that; they would never have voted against Russia but at least they are not demonstrating full blown support for Russia's aggression.

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Originally Posted by az city

Snags, do you think Sludge should have his subjectship stripped from him because he is critical of Westminster? That sounds like a totalitarian regime ... like Russia.

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you can twist things as much as you want but I know that you understand exactly what I mean. you have all these links to this and that saying but the fact remains he and people like him continually berate th4 government for getting involved in wars they thing the government should not get involved in, and then he gets up om his hind legs and start slagging off the government for not getting involved in a war that has nothing to do with us directly. He, and you, can't have it both ways.
Sit in the sates and tell everybody how useless the UK is by all means, but do not seek to lecture me, I've been there and done it. You just spout shite!! End of!

We should stand up the little legs Putin. The the Uk suggested a no fly zone over Ukraine and little legs responded with if any British jet attacks Russian planes then was with Nato will start,
He also was quoted that if he see's any nato involvement has a threat then there will be retaliation.
The short arse high heel wearing muppet is nothing but an egotistic bully.

Nato should put a no fly zone over Ukraine and troops on the ground and call them a peace keeping force and are there to help the situation and warn Putin that any attacks on it's forces on the ground or breaking the no fly rule will result in retaliation.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

you can twist things as much as you want but I know that you understand exactly what I mean. you have all these links to this and that saying but the fact remains he and people like him continually berate th4 government for getting involved in wars they thing the government should not get involved in, and then he gets up om his hind legs and start slagging off the government for not getting involved in a war that has nothing to do with us directly. He, and you, can't have it both ways.
Sit in the sates and tell everybody how useless the UK is by all means, but do not seek to lecture me, I've been there and done it. You just spout shite!! End of!

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Sludge is a mixed up fool.

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Nobody has declared war, except Russia.
Should we just change our FB profiles and fly Ukrainian flags in support?
The UK AND the rest of the Nato members, need to step in and push them back.

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I think he's saying that doing that would be declaring war on Russia.

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Originally Posted by az city

Jimbo, you've lost me. Are you saying you disagree with dissent because it's "unpatriotic"?

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No, I disagree with them because they talk absolute shite and use the situation to pursue their own political agenda.

I also absolutely defend their right to talk absolute shite.

I do also think a lot of people in the UK are unpatriotic, and that's absolutely fine. It's weird, but it's fine and patriotism is a poorly defined concept anyway. It does frustrate me how quick some people are to talk down their own country incessantly however, and ignore the good and illuminate the bad disproportionately.

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Originally Posted by lardy

I think he's saying that doing that would be declaring war on Russia.

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Then so be it. Does the rest of Europe just sit and watch? What if Putin wants to invade another country. Do we just sit back and watch that too?

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

Then so be it. Does the rest of Europe just sit and watch? What if Putin wants to invade another country. Do we just sit back and watch that too?

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Europe's goal for 70+ years has been to avoid war at all costs. Putin is taking full advantage of that, knowing this is Europe's bottom line. And he is ready for war now, Europe isn't.

Declaring war on a nuclear state is a no turning back decision. Things will never be the same again. It's really not as simple as sitting back and watching, or 'so be it'.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Europe's goal for 70+ years has been to avoid war at all costs. Putin is taking full advantage of that, knowing this is Europe's bottom line. And he is ready for war now, Europe isn't.

Declaring war on a nuclear state is a no turning back decision. Things will never be the same again. It's really not as simple as sitting back and watching, or 'so be it'.

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So you’re answer is Yes. We just sit back and watch.

If Russia take Ukraine without then i wouldn't put it passed the fruitcake to find an excuse to target one of Poland, Slovakia, ,Hungary or Romania next

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

So you’re answer is Yes. We just sit back and watch.

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No. The choice isn't black or white - sit back and watch vs declare war on a nuclear state

I don't know the best thing to do, obviously. I guess I'd say turn everything off for Russia immediately and make them a pariah. No trade, no outside financial transactions - make life hard and unbearable for those living there, without it coming to war. If the Russian people turn against Putin, that may be the best way to get him to back down or get him out.

They will fight back with cyber warfare, which won't be pleasant either, but it's better than fighting back with nuclear weapons - which he has threatened to do and none of us can be sure if it's an idle threat or serious one.

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Originally Posted by lardy

No. The choice isn't black or white - sit back and watch vs declare war on a nuclear state

I don't know the best thing to do, obviously. I guess I'd say turn everything off for Russia immediately and make them a pariah. No trade, no outside financial transactions - make life hard and unbearable for those living there, without it coming to war. If the Russian people turn against Putin, that may be the best way to get him to back down or get him out.

They will fight back with cyber warfare, which won't be pleasant either, but it's better than fighting back with nuclear weapons - which he has threatened to do and none of us can be sure if it's an idle threat or serious one.

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who's economy fails first, russia coz sanctions ,the west coz refugees?,belarus has already tried to weaponize 'refugees' ,no massive shock and awe ,let the people leave .they are the weapon .

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Originally Posted by lardy

No. The choice isn't black or white - sit back and watch vs declare war on a nuclear state

I don't know the best thing to do, obviously. I guess I'd say turn everything off for Russia immediately and make them a pariah. No trade, no outside financial transactions - make life hard and unbearable for those living there, without it coming to war. If the Russian people turn against Putin, that may be the best way to get him to back down or get him out.

They will fight back with cyber warfare, which won't be pleasant either, but it's better than fighting back with nuclear weapons - which he has threatened to do and none of us can be sure if it's an idle threat or serious one.

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This. The only difference to what you say that I'd hypothesize is that the West is currently struggling to get a consensus and the plan is to slowly add sanctions until Putin (hopefully) yields. Also, it's probably a lot easier to create sanctions on energy after the winter. The fear is the West is dealing with an ageing sociopath who has nukes who won't yield.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

No, I disagree with them because they talk absolute shite and use the situation to pursue their own political agenda.

I also absolutely defend their right to talk absolute shite.

I do also think a lot of people in the UK are unpatriotic, and that's absolutely fine. It's weird, but it's fine and patriotism is a poorly defined concept anyway. It does frustrate me how quick some people are to talk down their own country incessantly however, and ignore the good and illuminate the bad disproportionately.

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I shan't labour the point but you seem to be describing a healthy, tolerant society to me. Dissent is good even if you disagree with it. It's actually patriotic.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

you can twist things as much as you want but I know that you understand exactly what I mean. you have all these links to this and that saying but the fact remains he and people like him continually berate th4 government for getting involved in wars they thing the government should not get involved in, and then he gets up om his hind legs and start slagging off the government for not getting involved in a war that has nothing to do with us directly. He, and you, can't have it both ways.
Sit in the sates and tell everybody how useless the UK is by all means, but do not seek to lecture me, I've been there and done it. You just spout shite!! End of!

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I'll be in Roath (kinda) next week. :ayatollah:

I do enjoy the Socratic method but my question wasn't an attempt to lecture you.

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Originally Posted by + the native hipster

who's economy fails first, russia coz sanctions ,the west coz refugees?,belarus has already tried to weaponize 'refugees' ,no massive shock and awe ,let the people leave .they are the weapon .

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If that's the choice, Russia definitely.

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Originally Posted by lardy

If that's the choice, Russia definitely.

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its not a 'choice'

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Originally Posted by + the native hipster

its not a 'choice'

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You seemed to be asking a question - whose economy would fail first. That's my answer.

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Originally Posted by lardy

You seemed to be asking a question - whose economy would fail first. That's my answer.

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fat fingers, lost some of my reply. 5 million a day [grundian readers reply] for the refugees at the moment , germany still importing gas ,oil coal from russia ,not the only one .i'd say thats income as opposed to the out going of looking after the huddled masses

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

No, I disagree with them because they talk absolute shite and use the situation to pursue their own political agenda.

I also absolutely defend their right to talk absolute shite.

I do also think a lot of people in the UK are unpatriotic, and that's absolutely fine. It's weird, but it's fine and patriotism is a poorly defined concept anyway. It does frustrate me how quick some people are to talk down their own country incessantly however, and ignore the good and illuminate the bad disproportionately.

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Patriotism is a bad thing in some ways, but Im as patriotic as the next person when it comes to Wales right down to the hairs on my neck standing up when I hear something like Yma O Hyd. I’ve never felt the same about the UK and what pride I had in being British has taken a knock in recent years.

However, what Putin is doing is beyond my comprehension and as I am not militarily minded in the slightest and have little or no understanding of that mind set because it doesn’t interest me, I’m having to rely on gut feelings when it comes to Ukraine and I’m surprising myself by how hawkish I feel. That said, I’ve always felt Putin needed to be kept in check or, hopefully, out of power and, although you have to wonder if the price being paid is worth it, I’m fairly confident that, one way or another, he’lll be gone when this whole thing ends.

Everyone seems to agree that sanctions can be effective in the long term, but Ukraine’s problems are as much short term as long term and so my gut says we should be doing more now and if that includes putting boots on the ground then so be it. However, I take note of comments I’ve heard saying that, no matter what you may think of him, Putin’s military actions have been quite shrewd in the past when looked at from his point of view, but now he just seems to be lashing out in a manner which asks questions about his sanity - Russia has been making sabre rattling statements to Finland and Sweden in the past twenty four hours about the consequences of them joining NATO and it seems to me that we now have a rogue state with the power to start an apocalypse whose leader is more likely to turn to the nuclear option than almost anyone I can think of in my lifetime.

In terms of domestic politics, I don’t like the UKs Government’s attitude towards the Oligarchs (the last Labour Government were not much better either) and there are legitimate questions to be asked about the Conservative parties relationship with some powerful Putin allies, but I’m not going to be over critical of the decisions made by them in the last few days except that they do not go far enough (to be fair, they do want to go further on things like Swift).

What I would say is that I don’t envy leaders of the anti Russian majority one little bit. It’s easy to spout opinions on a messageboard (it’s always amazing how many people there are on them who know exactly how any political problems arise and how they can be solved). In my case though, all I’ve got is gut instinct and, in this situation, you need a lot more than that.

'World events do not occur by accident. They are made to happen, whether it is to do with national issues or commerce; and most of them are staged and managed by those who hold the purse strings.'

The above wasn't written by David Icke or any other 'lunatic conspiracy theorist' but the late Labour Party big hitter Denis Healey who included them in his autobiography The Time of My Life.

For decades he occupied a position to know how the world really worked because he knocked around with the like of David Rockefeller every year at secret meetings along with scores of other immensely rich and powerful people.

Icke and many others, fellow crackpots (of course), have maintained what Healey stated is true long before his book was published in 2015 - and go much farther by suggesting everything we are presented as true on the world stage is a carefully contrived fake reality and pure theatre... there are no competing political ideologies, and the leaders of all developed countries are carefully pre-selected years in advance of being installed into power to play their roles in a grand theatre production.

Presuming Healey was correct, this Ukraine-Russia conflict is no accident and it's been made to happen. For what purpose isn't clear.

As unsavoury as it might be, I think the quickest, cleanest way to end the is to take out Putin (Putout Putin, shake it all about)

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Originally Posted by lardy

No. The choice isn't black or white - sit back and watch vs declare war on a nuclear state

I don't know the best thing to do, obviously. I guess I'd say turn everything off for Russia immediately and make them a pariah. No trade, no outside financial transactions - make life hard and unbearable for those living there, without it coming to war. If the Russian people turn against Putin, that may be the best way to get him to back down or get him out.

They will fight back with cyber warfare, which won't be pleasant either, but it's better than fighting back with nuclear weapons - which he has threatened to do and none of us can be sure if it's an idle threat or serious one.

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If we all toughen up on sanctions and cause the Russians unbearable times then i believe he will find an excuse to launch an attack on the next country.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Europe's goal for 70+ years has been to avoid war at all costs. Putin is taking full advantage of that, knowing this is Europe's bottom line. And he is ready for war now, Europe isn't.

Declaring war on a nuclear state is a no turning back decision. Things will never be the same again. It's really not as simple as sitting back and watching, or 'so be it'.

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70 odd yrs of avoiding war at all costs is commendable, but we are now faced with this situation.
Nuclear weapons are a deterrent to a certain extent, but it now appears that it also gives countries that possess them, the green light to brutally invade a neighbours land with little or no consequences.
Certain sanctions may put the squeeze on Putin, but they aren’t much help to the the 100’s of thousands of Ukrainians that are going to perish in the coming months.

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Originally Posted by stan butler

If we all toughen up on sanctions and cause the Russians unbearable times then i believe he will find an excuse to launch an attack on the next country.

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Sanctions won’t make any difference, China 🇨🇳 is assisting them.

Taiwan next ?

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Originally Posted by William Treseder

So you’re answer is Yes. We just sit back and watch.

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And you're suggesting we declare war on a nuclear nation with a far bigger military than ours 3 days after they invade a country we don't have an alliance pact with. Declare war without the US, Germany, France etc by the way because they wouldn't join us.

At the minute the UK is pumping money and weapons in, and issuing sanctions. I think it's also reasonable to assume that there's a lot of British Special Forces on the ground as well. Maybe the next step is to kick Russia out of SWIFT, which to be fair to our Government they're in support of even though it's the financial equivalent of mutually assured destruction. If Russia invade a NATO country I have no doubt we'll send troops in.

This is a horrible situation and any reaction to is is going to have massive consequences for decades to come, reducing it to simple soundbites like "you want to sit back and watch is it" is ridiculous

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Originally Posted by delmbox

And you're suggesting we declare war on a nuclear nation with a far bigger military than ours 3 days after they invade a country we don't have an alliance pact with. Declare war without the US, Germany, France etc by the way because they wouldn't join us.

At the minute the UK is pumping money and weapons in, and issuing sanctions. I think it's also reasonable to assume that there's a lot of British Special Forces on the ground as well. Maybe the next step is to kick Russia out of SWIFT, which to be fair to our Government they're in support of even though it's the financial equivalent of mutually assured destruction. If Russia invade a NATO country I have no doubt we'll send troops in.

This is a horrible situation and any reaction to is is going to have massive consequences for decades to come, reducing it to simple soundbites like "you want to sit back and watch is it" is ridiculous

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It is a simple soundbite. We will all sit back and watch it unfold in the media, whilst saying under our breath ‘glad it isn’t us’
It could be soon though if you let tyrants like Putin have their way.

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Originally Posted by Organ Morgan.

'World events do not occur by accident. They are made to happen, whether it is to do with national issues or commerce; and most of them are staged and managed by those who hold the purse strings.'

The above wasn't written by David Icke or any other 'lunatic conspiracy theorist' but the late Labour Party big hitter Denis Healey who included them in his autobiography The Time of My Life.

For decades he occupied a position to know how the world really worked because he knocked around with the like of David Rockefeller every year at secret meetings along with scores of other immensely rich and powerful people.

Icke and many others, fellow crackpots (of course), have maintained what Healey stated is true long before his book was published in 2015 - and go much farther by suggesting everything we are presented as true on the world stage is a carefully contrived fake reality and pure theatre... there are no competing political ideologies, and the leaders of all developed countries are carefully pre-selected years in advance of being installed into power to play their roles in a grand theatre production.

Presuming Healey was correct, this Ukraine-Russia conflict is no accident and it's been made to happen. For what purpose isn't clear.

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Here we go again.....

Some the footage and testimony that I’ve seen of Ukrainian citizens has been incredibly moving and awe inspiring. Young men having to bare arms having never held a gun before in their lives as their families shelter, the old woman confronting Russian soldiers with sunflower seeds, a man walking into and trying to stop military trucks’ progress with nothing but his body, an old ethnic Russian berating Russian troops, a woman giving birth on the Kyiv metro. And the defiance of those left on Snake Island telling the Russian naval force to do one knowing the next moments would be their last.

There are deep structural forces and a myriad of decisions that have led to this, fascinating and frightening as they are, but these instances of humanity by ordinary people against oppression are the ones I will try to hold in my thoughts the most.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

My point is that all the people who regularly slag off the UK could easily go somewhere else but don't.

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Ironically, some of those who furiously defend the UK have gone elsewhere. Decades ago.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

My point is that all the people who regularly slag off the UK could easily go somewhere else but don't. Unlike the people of ukraine who have nowhere to go. I don't agree with everything this country does but I know people in the EU who have told me that bexit or not if they were to they had to go home they'd have to be dragged kicking and screaming because UK is far and away better than where they were born If people like sludge think this place is so bad I'd love to know where they would prefer to live.

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The invasion of Iraq by Bush and Blair was a war based on lies and ideology

Nothing was achieved

In The Ukraine Putin has been stoking the fires for nearly a decade

The warning signs were there but instead of massing land forces there so leaving him with the only red button option we have now allowed him to squirrel his way in and now our only option seems to be cobbling together some sort of late defensive reshuffle

It's a completely different situation to Iraq which was a military operation than was totally unjustified

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Originally Posted by Kind of Blue

Some the footage and testimony that I’ve seen of Ukrainian citizens has been incredibly moving and awe inspiring. Young men having to bare arms having never held a gun before in their lives as their families shelter, the old woman confronting Russian soldiers with sunflower seeds, a man walking into and trying to stop military trucks’ progress with nothing but his body, an old ethnic Russian berating Russian troops, a woman giving birth on the Kyiv metro. And the defiance of those left on Snake Island telling the Russian naval force to do one knowing the next moments would be their last.

There are deep structural forces and a myriad of decisions that have led to this, fascinating and frightening as they are, but these instances of humanity by ordinary people against oppression are the ones I will try to hold in my thoughts the most.

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It's awful but we are left with people talking war games when this conflict was avoidable or at least manageable

We are talking not about brain washed religious fanatics difficult to pin down , it's the mass movement of military hardware and troops right on on doorstep .

Now clearly the Russian Army is massive but a small protective force in Eastern Europe , from Great Britain , USA and others could and should have been a far better deterrent than trident which seems to spend half its time in the dock being repaired .

We have fiddled whilst the house is on fire

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

The invasion of Iraq by Bush and Blair was a war based on lies and ideology

Nothing was achieved

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apart from getting rid of a dictator ( saddam hussein ) who was gassing ( cyanide, mustard and sarin ) Kurds at Halabja you mean ? ? ?

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

I'm trying to disengage my brain from politics in general and my own bias...it's tough though when people are so blatant in their hatred for the United Kingdom.

People should shut their fcking mouths about Britain's envolvement or accusing people of jingoism.

Do you know what Britain has done so far?
Do you know what Britain will do?
Do you know how British anti tank weapons helped Ukraine today???

The UK have committed a shit ton more to Ukraine
than the likes of Germany.

A proper anti facist is on his way right now to Wisconsin Avenue in DC.

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I am not anti UK

To critises the UK decision makers and others who have left this smoulder whilst we have worried about soppy nonsense like Brexit is not to hate the UK

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Originally Posted by blue matt

apart from getting rid of a dictator ( saddam hussein ) who was gassing ( cyanide, mustard and sarin ) Kurds at Halabja you mean ? ? ?

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That's not the reason why we went in , you realise that don't you ?

That bar of chocolate led to a lot of rotten teeth