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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
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Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
The legal definition of those protected from hate crimes in the UK is a broad one by anyone's standards other than, perhaps, those who dislike broad definitions, maybe due to their 'religion or belief,' that is. In reality it's a catch-all piece of legislation designed that way to make people fearful of expressing an opinion contrary to prevailing attitudes.
Of course it's broad. Have a think at what a specific one would look like and how often it would be useless.
You very often express opinions contrary to prevailing attitudes. Are you fearful? Of course you aren't.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
The legal definition of those protected from hate crimes in the UK is a broad one by anyone's standards other than, perhaps, those who dislike broad definitions, maybe due to their 'religion or belief,' that is. In reality it's a catch-all piece of legislation designed that way to make people fearful of expressing an opinion contrary to prevailing attitudes.
Opinion based on facts, even if they are contrary, are fine. Opinions based on prejudice, hatred etc that can be proven as a load of bollocks by facts should not be given an airing.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
I haven't time to check to provide you with a link. But I'm quite sure that if the police receive an official complaint from someone alleging a hate crime has been committed then they are compelled to investigate that complaint.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
I haven't time to check to provide you with a link. But I'm quite sure that if the police receive an official complaint from someone alleging a hate crime has been committed then they are compelled to investigate that complaint.
Are you happy with this? Should we be able to sweep a potential hate crime under the carpet?
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
Surely that would be slander?
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
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Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
:hehe: it's funny how everything seems to be fine as long as it's legal, most stuff going on with Mexican children at the moment is legal as was most of the horrific things that went on in Germant in the 30s and 40s.
I don't know why anyone is discussing libel and "facts" when everything he's being called out for was written on Morrissey's own website by the man himself.
I popped over to the website hoping to find a confession, but I just see endless arguments about free speech. So could you point out the incrimnating bit where Morrissey declares that he is a racist.
https://www.morrissey-solo.com
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
Is it me, or do most perceived threats against freedom of speech nowadays arise where the speech could be perceived as hateful or racist, and happens against people supposedly "saying it as it is"?
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Is it me, or do most perceived threats against freedom of speech nowadays arise where the speech could be perceived as hateful or racist, and happens against people supposedly "saying it as it is"?
It’s mascarades under the guise of wanting freedom of speech, it’s always been a tactic of the far right when it comes to racism. Often under the guise of things being too “politically correct” as well.
Freedom of speech in the U.K. is as free as ever you can call the queen a c*nt, you could call the prune minister a useless tosser and there are no consequences. The only thing you can’t do is be an outright racist, but as long as you aren’t outright with it you can get away with it too.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
Who’s been charged with a hate crime though in the context of this thread? Morrissey hasn’t committed a hate crime, he’s just aired some bigoted views. He’s not been charged with anything, he’s not in trouble with the police, all that’s happened is capitalism at its finest, people don’t like someone’s personality so they don’t buy anything from them.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
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Originally Posted by
ninianclark
"What is a hate crime in the UK?
Hate crime constitutes a criminal offence directed at individuals or groups because of their disability, race or ethnicity, religion or belief, sexual orientation or transgender identity."
That doesnt make much sense - a criminal offence directed at so if someone carries at a criminal offence eg shop lifting, but rather than general shop lifting - the person only targets Chinese supermarkets for example - is that a hate crime ? - as it appears to be given that definition.
Dianne Abbot said "all white people are racist" - is that a hate crime or a racist comment ? - or both
What about a Transexual that only burgles houses where homosexuals live ? - is that a hate crime - seems to be using the definition above.
I would imagine motives come into it as well. Given your examples, if a robber targets Chinese supermarkets out of an irrational dislike of Chinese people, then that's a hate crime. If it's because he doesn't want to pay for his soy sauce, then it's hardly a hate crime. Similarly with the transexual who only burgles homes of homosexuals - surely the tranny is targetting a specific group for a particular reason.
As for Diane Abbott, she'd be best off miles away from public service, but to answer the point, once you start generalising about an entire race/religion etc of people, then you leave yourself open to being called racist. One I hear from time to time is that "all Muslims are terrorists (or rapists)" etc. It's a load of absolute bollocks, but suggesting all implies a feeling of hate towards all people of a particular religion.
Frankie Boyle had it spot on when he was talking about the stereotype in America that black people are thieves. His response was to correctly say that America had stolen all the black people in the first place!
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
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Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
Who’s been charged with a hate crime though in the context of this thread? Morrissey hasn’t committed a hate crime, he’s just aired some bigoted views. He’s not been charged with anything, he’s not in trouble with the police, all that’s happened is capitalism at its finest, people don’t like someone’s personality so they don’t buy anything from them.
So are you now downgrading Morrissey from a racist to being a bigot? You said we could find his racism in his own words on his own website, but I couldn't. Are you playing fast and loose in order to get away with as much as you can, and only pulling back when challenged? Still, we have numerous people repeating the Morrissey is a racist mantra, so you have had some success. I'd still be interested in referencing Morrissey's own words, where he admits to being a racist, so let me know if you ever come across them! :thumbup:
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
I think hate crimes are only really ever violent crimes aren't they? Whether they should be treated differently is another matter, I assume they are punished more harshly due to the history of people being attacked for being in a certain group. Like those 2 polish lads who were murdered just after the brexit vote.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
This article appears to be the source material for those who claim Morrissey is a racist.
https://www.tremr.com/Fiona-Dodwell/...y-an-interview
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
I think hate crimes are only really ever violent crimes aren't they? Whether they should be treated differently is another matter, I assume they are punished more harshly due to the history of people being attacked for being in a certain group. Like those 2 polish lads who were murdered just after the brexit vote.
A Hearts fan was once done for a racially-aggravated public order offence against Celtic player Craig Bellamy. His heinous crime was to refer to him as a "wee Welsh bastard." The linked article has that and other examples of how wide-ranging the law is.
An angry man insults you by calling you Scottish. Is that a race crime? Leading lawyers fear freedom of speech is being eroded by the interpretation of new hate laws, writes Calum Macdonald: http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...lum_Macdonald/
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
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Originally Posted by
ninianclark
Hi Eric - In a court though, in reality how would someone ever prove the the accused targetted Chinese supermarkets becuase he disliked Chinese people. ANY barrister with hald a brain would simply say he targeted them because he thought they didnt have cctv, security guards, thought they wouldnt prosecute if caught.
The Police wouldnt go round his house looking for things like anti chinese paraphernalia, they wouldnt do any sort of mental assesment to see if he had issues with Chinese people etc - they would simply just charge him with shop lifting.
Crime is crime as far as I know. The motive maybe some sort of underlying dislike/hate of a certain group of people. Motive is only ever of use when trying to find the culprit to predict their next crime etc.
So hate crime as such doesnt really exist, hate is the possible motive, and whatever act they carry out is the crime.
I love a good legal discussion... but I need to start earning money rather than being on here.
ps - re Frankie Boyle - was it a hate crime or hate speech when he made a joke about a disabled kid , in front of a woman with a disabled child (who wasnt with her) ?
It was a joke. Probably a sick joke. It's something comedians do, they tell jokes. It may have been very ill-advised depending on one's opinion, but hate? No idea what you've been smoking to think that.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
A Hearts fan was once done for a racially-aggravated public order offence against Celtic player Craig Bellamy. His heinous crime was to refer to him as a "wee Welsh bastard." The linked article has that and other examples of how wide-ranging the law is.
An angry man insults you by calling you Scottish. Is that a race crime? Leading lawyers fear freedom of speech is being eroded by the interpretation of new hate laws, writes Calum Macdonald:
http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/1...lum_Macdonald/
Best way of not offending someone is to not be offensive to them.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
But stupid jobsworth nonsense like that isn’t common though is it? The laws were brought in to try and stop actual issues a lot of minority groups have suffered and which are now thankfully much less common in the U.K.
Unfortunately you’re always going to get instances of laws being ridiculously applied you just have to hope that it doesn’t become a common occurrence, which it isn’t.
I completely agree with the guy in that article he makes exactly the same points
Quote:
The act was a good idea.
There is no doubt ethnic minorities were being abused and the penalties were not fitting the crime.
"There is no problem with the legislation - the problem is that, in the current climate, if you add certain banned adjectives in front of an insult you are branded a racist.
You just hope it’s applied sensibly which as he says it usually is. We all know what’s racist and what isn’t, people trying to get away with obvious dog whistle racism are the ones who are causing the most trouble at the moment.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
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Originally Posted by
Eric the Half a Bee
Best way of not offending someone is to not be offensive to them.
He wasn't offended; he didn't hear the remarks. But a copper did. As I implied in an earlier message re watch your p's and q's, be bland with everything you say.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
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Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
He wasn't offended; he didn't hear the remarks. But a copper did. As I implied in an earlier message re watch your p's and q's, be bland with everything you say.
But that’s paranoid bollocks though, that isn’t happening anywhere really. You’ve highlighted one instance. Just don’t be a racist or a bigot and no one will get in trouble.
These laws were brought in with equality and safety of everyone in mind. Certain sections of the media will try and spin this in a negative light but as a country with regards to treatment of minorities we’ve improved no end in the last 30 years.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
A bellend artist makes bellend art.
Remember when there was nothing ...... good old nothing.......the good old days when there was nothing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KVO...&frags=pl%2Cwn
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Organ Morgan.
I haven't time to check to provide you with a link. But I'm quite sure that if the police receive an official complaint from someone alleging a <s>hate</s> crime has been committed then they are compelled to investigate that complaint.
I think this still sentence still works with that small amendment.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Croesy Blue
But that’s paranoid bollocks though, that isn’t happening anywhere really. You’ve highlighted one instance. Just don’t be a racist or a bigot and no one will get in trouble.
These laws were brought in with equality and safety of everyone in mind. Certain sections of the media will try and spin this in a negative light but as a country with regards to treatment of minorities we’ve improved no end in the last 30 years.
There's several examples in that article I linked. I could find examples of Cardiff fans being done for similar against supporters of English clubs and Plymouth fans for insulting Cardiff fans. Those incidents would be dismissed as banter by most I would contend. The point I've been trying to make is it's illegal when someone cares to apply the letter of the law.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
When was the time a cardiff fan was done for calling someone an English bastard? I honestly cannot ever remember one instance of that.
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Re: Morrissey cancels tour over racism issues
This thread is absolutely mental.