Putin declares four areas of Ukraine as part of Russia

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

The U.S intervened because a pro Russian president won during a fair election process. 11 years and billions of dollars later it looks as if things are back where they started both in territory and political balance.

I’m happy to stand corrected.

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It was the US State Department/USAID/CIA, who incidentally have just been side-lined by the Trump administration (see link in my previous post). As a consequence of this, Zelensky has now reached out to the EU and the non-US element of NATO for further direction.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

The U.S intervened because a pro Russian president won during a fair election process. 11 years and billions of dollars later it looks as if things are back where they started both in territory and political balance.

I’m happy to stand corrected.

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Unbelievably naive - Putin's eventual aim is to get things back to something like they were like in 1988, not 2014.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Sidelining him was the right thing to do but it hasn't worked. Its screwed Europe's economy leading to political destabilisation. It didn't stop him invading Ukraine and it's led to 200,000 odd deaths. It's not working. We can carry on. Or we can seek peace or we can massively ramp it up and risk a far more serious conflict.

US, Ukraine and Russia will very likely enter peace talks in the coming days.

Seriously now, what do people want to hear on the ten o clock news tonight?

"Peace talks fail as Russia launches missiles into Ukraine killing dozens"

or

"Peace talks to take place next week" ??

There is no optimal solution, but there never is. The option of peace is at least worth exploring though.

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Agree. Macron, Biden and Johnson encouraged Zelenski to keep the war going from the start, giving £100's billions of support. I'm not sure what all those wailing voices from this side of the Atlantic are wanting - perhaps keep the war going for another 6 months by which Ukraine will be totally beaten.

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Agree. Macron, Biden and Johnson encouraged Zelenski to keep the war going from the start, giving £100's billions of support. I'm not sure what all those wailing voices from this side of the Atlantic are wanting - perhaps keep the war going for another 6 months by which Ukraine will be totally beaten.

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Roosevelt encouraged Churchill to keep the war going with lend-lease. Just think of all the lives that decision cost.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Roosevelt encouraged Churchill to keep the war going with lend-lease. Just think of all the lives that decision cost.

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Agree, though western Europe was threatened, and after 1941 the eventual outcome of the war was in no doubt. In the case of Ukraine/Russia there was never going to be a good outcome for Ukraine, despite the western media building up Ukraine's chances..

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Originally Posted by A Quiet Monkfish

Agree, though western Europe was threatened, and after 1941 the eventual outcome of the war was in no doubt. In the case of Ukraine/Russia there was never going to be a good outcome for Ukraine, despite the western media building up Ukraine's chances..

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You agree? Meaning that you think USA shouldn't have supported the Allies before they joined the war?

At that point, western Europe was mostly under Nazi occupation, never mind "threatened"!

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Unbelievably naive - Putin's eventual aim is to get things back to something like they were like in 1988, not 2014.

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Irony Alert , I almost feel sorry for you ( almost )

You still got your Ukraine flags on your front window and clapping the NHS ?

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

Irony Alert , I almost feel sorry for you ( almost )

You still got your Ukraine flags on your front window and clapping the NHS ?

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:shrug:

You've got this habit of bringing up clapping the NHS no matter what the subject being discussed is, what's that got to do with this thread? I know Covid and Ukraine are high on the automatic tick list for independent thinkers like you, but I struggle to see the connection here.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

:shrug:

You've got this habit of bringing up clapping the NHS no matter what the subject being discussed is, what's that got to do with this thread? I know Covid and Ukraine are high on the automatic tick list for independent thinkers like you, but I struggle to see the connection here.

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Ukraine isn’t in my hot list neither is Covid , but a balanced debate without being called Smugeratti or a conspiracy theorist is why the subject is being discussed.

Out of curiosity, can you name any examples on conspiracy theories ( it must be at least 50 )on either of the subjects you have mentioned which have turned out to be false?

One or two things I reckon.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

Ukraine isn’t in my hot list neither is Covid , but a balanced debate without being called Smugeratti or a conspiracy theorist is why the subject is being discussed.

Out of curiosity, can you name any examples on conspiracy theories ( it must be at least 50 )on either of the subjects you have mentioned which have turned out to be false?

One or two things I reckon.

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At least two.... but I expect the true number is in the high dozens for Covid alone.

I will go with the BBC on these:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52847648

I don't think Ukraine has inspired as many conspiracy theories - even around casualty levels - more different political views and analysis.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

Ukraine isn’t in my hot list neither is Covid , but a balanced debate without being called Smugeratti or a conspiracy theorist is why the subject is being discussed.

Out of curiosity, can you name any examples on conspiracy theories ( it must be at least 50 )on either of the subjects you have mentioned which have turned out to be false?

One or two things I reckon.

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So, clapping the NHS has even less to do with Ukraine than I suspected it did, so, once again, why mention it?

It’d be interesting serving on a jury with you because our concepts of what constitutes something being proven vary enormously.

If you want some barmy conspiracy theories, just spent a few minutes reading the Covid thread started in 2020.

The term "conspiracy theory" has definitely become part of what we may call the "culture wars", with people deploying it as a means to shut people down.

As if in 2020 or even 2021 we knew anything about the vaccine really. I took it, I encouraged others to as well, but I can understand why people were sceptical and I think as a society we need some scepticism, and science definitely needs it to.

This technocratic idea that experts, scientists or whoever cannot be questioned isn't really how expertise and science evolves. They absolutely should be challenged, more so than others.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The term "conspiracy theory" has definitely become part of what we may call the "culture wars", with people deploying it as a means to shut people down.

As if in 2020 or even 2021 we knew anything about the vaccine really. I took it, I encouraged others to as well, but I can understand why people were sceptical and I think as a society we need some scepticism, and science definitely needs it to.

This technocratic idea that experts, scientists or whoever cannot be questioned isn't really how expertise and science evolves. They absolutely should be challenged, more so than others.

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Scepticism and questioning are good.

But paranoid inventions, social media trolling, denial of historic events and achievements (moon landings, the ISS, vaccine suppression of killer diseases), fabricated 'evidence' to back political or social agendas, outright racism and sexism posing as independent thought, and a constant attack on people who have become experts in a field and know things in favour of morons who have never mastered a subject and know nothing.... are not good.

The attack on experts and the 'conspiracy theories' that they are all on some sinister (WEF?) payroll seeped out of the alt right social media sphere and ended up with Michael Gove! The experts who should be called out are the ones in the pockets of Big Oil and Big Pharma - but they are the ones (along with Truthpaste's sad stable) who are championed by political conspiracy theorists.

This may all be some part of culture wars - but to my mind it is much more about a political struggle for hearts and minds.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The term "conspiracy theory" has definitely become part of what we may call the "culture wars", with people deploying it as a means to shut people down.

As if in 2020 or even 2021 we knew anything about the vaccine really. I took it, I encouraged others to as well, but I can understand why people were sceptical and I think as a society we need some scepticism, and science definitely needs it to.

This technocratic idea that experts, scientists or whoever cannot be questioned isn't really how expertise and science evolves. They absolutely should be challenged, more so than others.

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We'll all be pleased to know that Science needs some scepticism, thanks for letting us know. Science is questioned every single second of every single day, because that's how science works, without the questions there is no science.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Scepticism and questioning are good.

But paranoid inventions, social media trolling, denial of historic events and achievements (moon landings, the ISS, vaccine suppression of killer diseases), fabricated 'evidence' to back political or social agendas, outright racism and sexism posing as independent thought, and a constant attack on people who have become experts in a field and know things in favour of morons who have never mastered a subject and know nothing.... are not good.

The attack on experts and the 'conspiracy theories' that they are all on some sinister (WEF?) payroll seeped out of the alt right social media sphere and ended up with Michael Gove! The experts who should be called out are the ones in the pockets of Big Oil and Big Pharma - but they are the ones (along with Truthpaste's sad stable) who are championed by political conspiracy theorists.

This may all be some part of culture wars - but to my mind it is much more about a political struggle for hearts and minds.

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Jon, we have entered a 'New Democracy' (i'm at it now) basically, it's one where you can think and say what the **** you like on any given subject, without an ounce of knowledge or experience, and still be expected to be taken seriously.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

We'll all be pleased to know that Science needs some scepticism, thanks for letting us know. Science is questioned every single second of every single day, because that's how science works, without the questions there is no science.

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:hehe:

Exactly. I've no idea who has said that experts shouldn't be questioned. And yet, on here, if you question someone saying that the vaccine caused black eyed babies or people to turn into Bluetooth transmitters, your card is marked seemingly forever

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Scepticism and questioning are good.

But paranoid inventions, social media trolling, denial of historic events and achievements (moon landings, the ISS, vaccine suppression of killer diseases), fabricated 'evidence' to back political or social agendas, outright racism and sexism posing as independent thought, and a constant attack on people who have become experts in a field and know things in favour of morons who have never mastered a subject and know nothing.... are not good.

The attack on experts and the 'conspiracy theories' that they are all on some sinister (WEF?) payroll seeped out of the alt right social media sphere and ended up with Michael Gove! The experts who should be called out are the ones in the pockets of Big Oil and Big Pharma - but they are the ones (along with Truthpaste's sad stable) who are championed by political conspiracy theorists.

This may all be some part of culture wars - but to my mind it is much more about a political struggle for hearts and minds.

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Agreed!

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

We'll all be pleased to know that Science needs some scepticism, thanks for letting us know. Science is questioned every single second of every single day, because that's how science works, without the questions there is no science.

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Exactly. And yet we had a period where questioning things on COVID such as the effectiveness of masks, the health and social cost of isolation vs. treatment of a pandemic, the source of the outbreak and the effectiveness of a vaccine etc were dismissed as conspiracy theories and that isn't a healthy situation, and you seem to agree with me on that 👍

As you can see below. In 2020 we were told to ignore the conspiracy theories and scientists know what happened. Four years later it seems it likely wasn't a conspiracy theory and the scientists were wrong.

So it's good that it was challenged and it's good to have an open mind on these things.

June 2020: Ignore the conspiracy theories: scientists know Covid-19 wasn't created in a lab.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...false-pandemic

January 2025: CIA says lab leak most likely source of COVID outbreak
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd9qjjj4zy5o

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Exactly. And yet we had a period where questioning things on COVID such as the effectiveness of masks, the health and social cost of isolation vs. treatment of a pandemic, the source of the outbreak and the effectiveness of a vaccine etc were dismissed as conspiracy theories and that isn't a healthy situation, and you seem to agree with me on that ��

As you can see below. In 2020 we were told to ignore the conspiracy theories and scientists know what happened. Four years later it seems it likely wasn't a conspiracy theory and the scientists were wrong.

So it's good that it was challenged and it's good to have an open mind on these things.

June 2020: Ignore the conspiracy theories: scientists know Covid-19 wasn't created in a lab.
https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...false-pandemic

January 2025: CIA says lab leak most likely source of COVID outbreak
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cd9qjjj4zy5o

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Those stories don't mean quite what you have interpreted them as.

The first says it's not "created" from a lab.
The second says, with low confidence, it could have been "leaked" from a lab.

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Originally Posted by jon1959

Scepticism and questioning are good.

But paranoid inventions, social media trolling, denial of historic events and achievements (moon landings, the ISS, vaccine suppression of killer diseases), fabricated 'evidence' to back political or social agendas, outright racism and sexism posing as independent thought, and a constant attack on people who have become experts in a field and know things in favour of morons who have never mastered a subject and know nothing.... are not good.

The attack on experts and the 'conspiracy theories' that they are all on some sinister (WEF?) payroll seeped out of the alt right social media sphere and ended up with Michael Gove! The experts who should be called out are the ones in the pockets of Big Oil and Big Pharma - but they are the ones (along with Truthpaste's sad stable) who are championed by political conspiracy theorists.

This may all be some part of culture wars - but to my mind it is much more about a political struggle for hearts and minds.

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I think many things we are told are open to debate. If our own political parties lie to the electorate then no wonder the electorate has misgivings about what is reported.

The problem is , because many people have been brainwashed by the media ( both for and against) then it’s difficult to understand the reality especially when a significant portion of conspiracy theories are at worst half truths.

What is certain though is the UK media are hardly impartial which is what it should be.

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Originally Posted by lardy

Those stories don't mean quite what you have interpreted them as.

The first says it's not "created" from a lab.
The second says, with low confidence, it could have been "leaked" from a lab.

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My entire point is that we should be open minded and not definitive on these things when we don't know the full story.

Nothing is absolutely definitive. That's kinda my point.

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Originally Posted by TWGL1

The problem is , because many people have been brainwashed by the media ( both for and against) then it’s difficult to understand the reality especially when a significant portion of conspiracy theories are at worst half truths.

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It was suggested that large numbers of the global media who were financed by USAID have been pushing specific propaganda narratives, but that's probably just another conspiracy theory?

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Originally Posted by jon1959

At least two.... but I expect the true number is in the high dozens for Covid alone.

I will go with the BBC on these:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/52847648

I don't think Ukraine has inspired as many conspiracy theories - even around casualty levels - more different political views and analysis.

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I don’t think anyone believes the two conspiracy theories on the link you have mentioned.

I do recall that it was mentioned masks were useless and unnecessary - fact

The vaccine didn’t prevent transmission - fact

The average age of a Covid death was 82 “where Covid was mentioned on the death certificate” - fact

PCR tests were not designed for mass testing resulting in huge numbers of false positives - fact PCR tests

Lockdowns did more harm than good - fact

Bill Gates is not a scientist- fact

My body my choice- fact

Articles like this are trending https://x.com/cartlanddavid/status/1...LhmySD2aRt-GNg

taxpayers paid for the creation of the Covid-19 virus through USAID and then paid the mainstream media to brainwash them about masks, vaccines, and lockdowns?

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Originally Posted by Wales-Bales

It was suggested that large numbers of the global media who were financed by USAID have been pushing specific propaganda narratives, but that's probably just another conspiracy theory?

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Who by? You?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Who by? You?

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This was world wide news last week after the white house press secretary announcing news organisations receiving money from USAID

It has been claimed some outlets have received the following

POLITICO: $34.3M
NY TIMES: $50M
ASSOCIATED PRESS: $19.5M
REUTERS: $9M
$220,000 from the Department of State just last year.
BBC: British Government TV received $3.3M

The BBC response to this

https://www.bbc.co.uk/mediaaction/pr...lease/4-feb-25