Hitler.

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Originally Posted by lardy

If I had superpowers was feeling particularly malevolent one day, I might give someone the power of walking for just a few seconds in a very public setting and in front of their family and friends, and then quickly withdraw it forever.

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Not for ever - NB.
Nobody is lame in eternity.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Agnostics or Theists, God for some reason doesn't do things the way we think He should!

But let's consider the bigger picture. Does a 30 year old father always do things the way his 3 year old son thinks he should?
Obviously not, because the father is aware of what is good or bad for his son, what is safe or dangerous for him too. What makes the difference in this case? 27 years more life experience, wisdom and learning from his own mistakes and those of others too.
The father loves the son, and because of that often says no or wait. Does the son always understand? No, particularly when he knows his dad is quite capable of giving him what he wants. Yes dad can afford that swiss army knife but for some reason says 'no' (?)

The intellect contrast between us and an omniscient (all knowing) God is far far greater than the illustration above, yet apart from that, God knows at least two other things that dad (above) doesn't know. God knows the future, so his decisions are partly based on that. Secondly, God has an eternal perspective on us. We as humans plan from cradle > coffin, God saw us even before we were conceived, our earthly life, and the plight of our eternal soul & spirit. People having considered this then seem to assume that because God has foreknowledge, He somehow has already decided our fate; this is NOT the case, He leaves each of us free to accept or reject Christ Jesus as Gofer has already mentioned (the Bible confirms this).

"If you openly declare that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved" - Romans 10:9

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Exactly what I predicted

Happy hour at Pete and Bernis philosophical steakhouse

If God knows the future , is all powerful ....that's what you lot think .....then if he knows the Israelis we're going to bomb loads of innocent kids .....then he should have seen it coming and used his power to stop it

Your answer? ......man has freewill .....so its not gods fault .....the get out clause ....and can't do everything ....even though one of his selling points is supposed to be he can do everything and is everywhere , all the time

And of course we are here in the form of Jesus who is younger than God so less wise ....so another yeah but no but yeah get out clause

You have covered all the bases there but you ain't ever fooling me

So you're ok with your god toying with innocent people in our world?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Well if god is great he needs to send Jesus again and again, not just once every 2000 years

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It wouldn't make any difference if he came every year, especially in these "technologically superior" times when AI can be used to fake anything, giving the skeptics all the ammo they need to reject him. I think I have said to you before, if Jesus turned up at your house today you would find a multitude of reasons to deny him as your mind is already made up.

Re: miracles. I was being honest in my report about the lad with spina bifida. It is the only miracle I have witnessed myself in over 40 years as a Christian and I have no explanation as to why he never walked again. Why would you be surprised that this event took place in a church? How often would a stranger approach a boy (who he doesn't know) in a wheelchair in a public space and tell him to get up and walk? Not too often I suspect. I thought for a moment you might have proposed that a mass-hallucination event had occurred, which is a popular "explanation" on occasions.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Exactly what I predicted

Happy hour at Pete and Bernis philosophical steakhouse

If God knows the future , is all powerful ....that's what you lot think .....then if he knows the Israelis we're going to bomb loads of innocent kids .....then he should have seen it coming and used his power to stop it

Your answer? ......man has freewill .....so its not gods fault .....the get out clause ....and can't do everything ....even though one of his selling points is supposed to be he can do everything and is everywhere , all the time

And of course we are here in the form of Jesus who is younger than God so less wise ....so another yeah but no but yeah get out clause

You have covered all the bases there but you ain't ever fooling me

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Yes, and even more shocking - from our limited perspective - God knew in advance the temporary success that Hitler would have against His People, the Jews, yet He didn't prevent it. So once again even when things would appear to be a mystery to us, God allows mankind's rebellion to play out, for reasons that our limited intellect and limited perspective cannot fathom?

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Originally Posted by lardy

If I had superpowers was feeling particularly malevolent one day, I might give someone the power of walking for just a few seconds in a very public setting and in front of their family and friends, and then quickly withdraw it forever.

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I was being honest in my report about the lad with spina bifida - I could have left it at the point where he got up and walked and left you to assume that he was totally healed. It is the only miracle I have witnessed myself in over 40 years as a Christian and I have no explanation as to why he never walked again. If God is love then it is impossible for him to be malevolant, so that is not a possible explanation. It is one of the questions I will have when I get to heaven, among others. Unfortunately I suspect I will not be able to publish any answers on the forum :wink:

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Originally Posted by lardy

So you're ok with your god toying with innocent people in our world?

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Innocent people? Never met any?

How are you defining innocent?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Innocent people? Never met any?

How are you defining innocent?

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I'd call a baby born with spina bifada to be innocent.

Maybe you think that a newborn is being punished.

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Originally Posted by lardy

I'd call a baby born with spina bifada to be innocent.

Maybe you think that a newborn is being punished.

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Not for one minute, your question presupposes a formula that God singles out individuals for punishment?

What are you basing that assumption on?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

It wouldn't make any difference if he came every year, especially in these "technologically superior" times when AI can be used to fake anything, giving the skeptics all the ammo they need to reject him. I think I have said to you before, if Jesus turned up at your house today you would find a multitude of reasons to deny him as your mind is already made up.

Re: miracles. I was being honest in my report about the lad with spina bifida. It is the only miracle I have witnessed myself in over 40 years as a Christian and I have no explanation as to why he never walked again. Why would you be surprised that this event took place in a church? How often would a stranger approach a boy (who he doesn't know) in a wheelchair in a public space and tell him to get up and walk? Not too often I suspect. I thought for a moment you might have proposed that a mass-hallucination event had occurred, which is a popular "explanation" on occasions.

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If God and Jesus shows me they exist then I am on the bus to paradise with you lot

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Yes, and even more shocking - from our limited perspective - God knew in advance the temporary success that Hitler would have against His People, the Jews, yet He didn't prevent it. So once again even when things would appear to be a mystery to us, God allows mankind's rebellion to play out, for reasons that our limited intellect and limited perspective cannot fathom?

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So this God knows that bad things are going to happen , has the power ...according to the omnipotent theory ....to stop them but doesn't?

The Jews have been on the end of some savage treatment since god said they were his people .....hundreds of years of murder and abuse ....but god hasn't done anything to help them?

Doesn't that tell you either God isn't that great and loving or.....he doesn't exist ?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

So this God knows that bad things are going to happen , has the power ...according to the omnipotent theory ....to stop them but doesn't?

The Jews have been on the end of some savage treatment since god said they were his people .....hundreds of years of murder and abuse ....but god hasn't done anything to help them?

Doesn't that tell you either God isn't that great and loving or.....he doesn't exist ?

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Well isn't it true that in the majority of cases that our parents allow us to go our own way, make our own decisions, however much they may know that those decisions will lead to grief. However none of this means they love us any less, and if they did try and tell us to take the opposite direction they would (in most cases) be met with derision!
God deeply cares for each one of us; and knowing that we are all only experiencing the opening chapter (no matter how old we are) of our existance, then He has intervened with a rescue mission to solve our deepest problem.
You already know all about Christ's death on the Cross which has paid the penalty for our rebellion against God. If we choose to ignore that offer of being equitted by taking Christ as our Saviour then that is our own choice.

This guy did accept God's offer > Clarence.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Well isn't it true that in the majority of cases that our parents allow us to go our own way, make our own decisions, however much they may know that those decisions will lead to grief. However none of this means they love us any less, and if they did try and tell us to take the opposite direction they would (in most cases) be met with derision!
God deeply cares for each one of us; and knowing that we are all only experiencing the opening chapter (no matter how old we are) of our existance, then He has intervened with a rescue mission to solve our deepest problem.
You already know all about Christ's death on the Cross which has paid the penalty for our rebellion against God. If we choose to ignore that offer of being equitted by taking Christ as our Saviour then that is our own choice.

This guy did accept God's offer > Clarence.

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So the Jews massacred by Hitler....

The ones murdered by the nazis rejected Jesus?

A young man goes to church until he leaves for university

Becomes a doctor , saves lives

Starts a new job , goes on holiday with his wife , drowns , dead

38 , life ahead of him

Has he been punished for rejecting god ? He seems like the perfect fit for heaven

How does he fit in with your theory of God?

Why didn't God save him and why did he let nazi war criminals escape to South America?

How is this human sin or human failure ?

What's the point of God if he's going to deal with things in such a scattergun approach ?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

So the Jews massacred by Hitler....

The ones murdered by the nazis rejected Jesus?

What are you basing this assumption on?

A young man goes to church until he leaves for university, Becomes a doctor, saves lives, Starts a new job, goes on holiday with his wife, drowns, dead. 38, life ahead of him. Has he been punished for rejecting god ? He seems like the perfect fit for heaven

What makes him or anyone at all a 'perfect fit for heaven' (???)

Why didn't God save him and why did he let nazi war criminals escape to South America?

The question should be, why DIDN'T God prolong his life to a normal lifespan?
Why did God allow Nazi's to live any longer than their victims?

This question is really about Judgment and Justice:- if this life is all there is, how could justice ever come for Hitler, Saville and the Nazis you mention above, and the answer is > Justice could NOT be delivered. However if the Bible is the Truth, then it can.
This would be an excellent topic in it's own right.

How is this human sin or human failure?
Human sin (natural rebellion) leads to failure, suffering and death - God's Word teaches this.

What's the point of God if he's going to deal with things in such a scattergun approach?
He doesn't, but from our limited perspective it might seem that way

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Feel free to come back on any or all of the above.

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

Feel free to come back on any or all of the above.

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Loads of Christians say that we all have the chance to accept God

If we don't?

Well clearly its fair to assume that God let's people die who dont buy into his system

And clearly looks after those that accept him

Because either things happen by chance ....or God is involved ....and he decides

You can't have it both ways

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Loads of Christians say that we all have the chance to accept God

If we don't?

Well clearly its fair to assume that God let's people die who dont buy into his system

And clearly looks after those that accept him

Because either things happen by chance ....or God is involved ....and he decides

You can't have it both ways

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Everybody dies regardless of whether or not they "buy into God's system". My understanding is that repenting and accepting Jesus is all that is required to have an afterlife with him. You are free to reject him and your afterlife may be somewhat different to mine!

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Everybody dies regardless of whether or not they "buy into God's system". My understanding is that repenting and accepting Jesus is all that is required to have an afterlife with him. You are free to reject him and your afterlife may be somewhat different to mine!

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Your understanding ?

I would hope its a bit more than that

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Your understanding ?

I would hope its a bit more than that

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We all base key decisions on understanding, in other words what we understand to be true.

What Gofer, myself and more crucially God (via the Bible) is saying is this, in your life on earth you will either chose to repent, or you will not.

But WHY do some people chose to believe?

Let me take you back to an iconic moment in the third Indiana Jones movie > HERE. It's only a 1 min 20 seconds clip.

Now my question is this, given that Indiana has no scientific reason to take that first step, why do you think he does?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

We all base key decisions on understanding, in other words what we understand to be true.

What Gofer, myself and more crucially God (via the Bible) is saying is this, in your life on earth you will either chose to repent, or you will not.

But WHY do some people chose to believe?

Let me take you back to an iconic moment in the third Indiana Jones movie > HERE. It's only a 1 min 20 seconds clip.

Now my question is this, given that Indiana has no scientific reason to take that first step, why do you think he does?

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He's in a corner , crapping himself , can't go back , and just crosses his fingers

That's believing in God or having no other option

I put my trust in science

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

He's in a corner , crapping himself , can't go back , and just crosses his fingers

That's believing in God or having no other option

I put my trust in science

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He did have another option, the option you've taken. Stay where you are and hope for the best....letting his father die.

The reason Indiana trusts the book he has been given, is because in reading it and applying it's message, it's taken him through sections of the challenge that have claimed the lives of lots of others who tried it without the book.
He can't see HOW he will survive when taking a step into the chasm, but as the book has been correct so far, he places his faith in it and that faith is justified and his father (played by Sean Connery) is saved.
Here's the lesson, we can test God's book in the things we CAN understand, to see if it's going to be trustworthy in the things we can't see or understand; or we can assume it's a load of religious nonsense, hope for the best and and go with the masses.
Which leads on to all you are left with, science!

However, science can't tell you where we (humans) all came from, why we are here, or what our ultimate destiny (final destination) is? Furthermore, science isn't always reliable.

So for what reason do you trust it and has it actually ever answered any of the big questions for you?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

He did have another option, the option you've taken. Stay where you are and hope for the best....letting his father die.

The reason Indiana trusts the book he has been given, is because in reading it and applying it's message, it's taken him through sections of the challenge that have claimed the lives of lots of others who tried it without the book.
He can't see HOW he will survive when taking a step into the chasm, but as the book has been correct so far, he places his faith in it and that faith is justified and his father (played by Sean Connery) is saved.
Here's the lesson, we can test God's book in the things we CAN understand, to see if it's going to be trustworthy in the things we can't see or understand; or we can assume it's a load of religious nonsense, hope for the best and and go with the masses.
Which leads on to all you are left with, science!

However, science can't tell you where we (humans) all came from, why we are here, or what our ultimate destiny (final destination) is? Furthermore, science isn't always reliable.

So for what reason do you trust it and has it actually ever answered any of the big questions for you?

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It is you who are part of the masses

It is non religious people who are independent and following our own way

Hoping for the best is realistic

Christians want certainty which doesn't exist

The trick is that you believe that if you give yourself over to Jesus and God you will have eternal life

It's a belief , it's not a fact and in all the years since your guidebook was written there is no evidence at all that there is an afterlife

And you believe that I will not have eternal life because I have rejected God.....I prefer to call it being not interested

The ultimate question would be that we know there are areas of this earth where other humans have not yet met us ......us being the so called civilised

In these areas for thousands of years these people have had no tvs , churches ,bibles to read, radios to listen to God's message

So not only have they not heard about your gods message they also not had the opportunity to accept God's presence or reject it

Over the years thousands of these people will obviously have lived lives without God

So which ones who have died have been given eternal life by God ?

I would assume none

That to me proves that God, Jesus and the promise of eternal life is fake

No chance of eternal life for some tribes in deepest amazon rainforest......they would need to know about God to be able to reject him

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It is you who are part of the masses

It is non religious people who are independent and following our own way

Hoping for the best is realistic

Christians want certainty which doesn't exist

The trick is that you believe that if you give yourself over to Jesus and God you will have eternal life

It's a belief , it's not a fact and in all the years since your guidebook was written there is no evidence at all that there is an afterlife

And you believe that I will not have eternal life because I have rejected God.....I prefer to call it being not interested

The ultimate question would be that we know there are areas of this earth where other humans have not yet met us ......us being the so called civilised

In these areas for thousands of years these people have had no tvs , churches ,bibles to read, radios to listen to God's message

So not only have they not heard about your gods message they also not had the opportunity to accept God's presence or reject it

Over the years thousands of these people will obviously have lived lives without God

So which ones who have died have been given eternal life by God ?

I would assume none

That to me proves that God, Jesus and the promise of eternal life is fake

No chance of eternal life for some tribes in deepest amazon rainforest......they would need to know about God to be able to reject him

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So having asked you why 'science' is THE answer to life, the universe & everything - you have nothing at all! :sherlock:

As a distraction, you attempt to prove that the Bible is equally redundant as the ceiling of man's current knowledge - science.

Let's take a look at how you did:-

* Christians want certainty which doesn't exist - He (Jesus) certainly exists, and He provides the certainty you are looking for but have yet to find.

* The trick is that you believe that if you give yourself over to Jesus and God you will have eternal life - we all have eternal life, it's the location of that eternal life that matters - NB.

* It's a belief, it's not a fact and in all the years since your guidebook was written there is no evidence at all that there is an afterlife - the 'guidebook' checks out, hopefully you'll discover that for yourself - you see truth is truth, and it will remain true, for time and eternity; so the fact that God completed the Bible some 2000 years ago is irrelevant.

* And you believe that I will not have eternal life because I have rejected God.....I prefer to call it being not interested - you have currently rejected Christ's offer of forgiveness, you use His Name only as a curse. And if you were not interested you would not be writing hundreds of words addressing Christians!

* The ultimate question would be that we know there are areas of this earth where other humans have not yet met us ......us being the so called civilised - In these areas for thousands of years these people have had no tvs , churches ,bibles to read, radios to listen to God's message - so not only have they not heard about your gods message they also not had the opportunity to accept God's presence or reject it - over the years thousands of these people will obviously have lived lives without God

Not a bad question at all. You see God isn't limited to TV, Radio, Books or people like Missionaries; all the time we hear of other ways that God gets the Good News to people in remote places, let me give you one example:-

Just before it was illegal (link) to head into the Amazon Rainforest as a Missionary, a Missionary made contact with a remote tribe. When he discovered that the whole community had accepted Christ as their Saviour he asked them who had brought the Message of God, Sin & Repentance to them? Oddly, they told him that nobody had come to them and he was the first man to come with this message from the Bible?
So again he asked them, how did you find out about Jesus?
They pointed to an old man and said, 'he told us! One night Jesus spoke to him in a dream, when he woke up he prayed to Jesus for forgiveness and thanked Him for dying for him on the Cross, then he told the rest of us what Jesus has told him; and now we all follow Jesus too! The Missionary was understandably staggered, but then thought to himself, God appeared to people in dreams in the Old & New Testament accounts, so why in remote places, should God not be doing the same today?

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Originally Posted by truthpaste

So having asked you why 'science' is THE answer to life, the universe & everything - you have nothing at all! :sherlock:

It's the best we have and simple examples of facts based on science such as throwing a match on petrol leads to a fire .....are all around us

It is Christians who cannot despite lots of opportunities over hundreds of years provide any facts at all to prove there is god and there is the afterlife .....it is you who has nothing

As a distraction, you attempt to prove that the Bible is equally redundant as the ceiling of man's current knowledge - science.

Christians like you are the masters of distraction, you do it everything you are asked to show evidence of God.......every time



Let's take a look at how you did:-

* Christians want certainty which doesn't exist - He (Jesus) certainly exists, and He provides the certainty you are looking for but have yet to find.

You think he exists , you think God exists......you have no evidence they exist .....so you have no certainty .....and thats why you have that belief as a crutch

* The trick is that you believe that if you give yourself over to Jesus and God you will have eternal life - we all have eternal life, it's the location of that eternal life that matters - NB.

I have no idea what you mean

* It's a belief, it's not a fact and in all the years since your guidebook was written there is no evidence at all that there is an afterlife - the 'guidebook' checks out, hopefully you'll discover that for yourself - you see truth is truth, and it will remain true, for time and eternity; so the fact that God completed the Bible some 2000 years ago is irrelevant.

Again what on earth are you talking about

* And you believe that I will not have eternal life because I have rejected God.....I prefer to call it being not interested - you have currently rejected Christ's offer of forgiveness, you use His Name only as a curse. And if you were not interested you would not be writing hundreds of words addressing Christians!

I engage with Christians because it's my right to challenge the utter stupidity of their medieval and outdated gospel

* The ultimate question would be that we know there are areas of this earth where other humans have not yet met us ......us being the so called civilised - In these areas for thousands of years these people have had no tvs , churches ,bibles to read, radios to listen to God's message - so not only have they not heard about your gods message they also not had the opportunity to accept God's presence or reject it - over the years thousands of these people will obviously have lived lives without God

Not a bad question at all. You see God isn't limited to TV, Radio, Books or people like Missionaries; all the time we hear of other ways that God gets the Good News to people in remote places, let me give you one example:-



Just before it was illegal (link) to head into the Amazon Rainforest as a Missionary, a Missionary made contact with a remote tribe. When he discovered that the whole community had accepted Christ as their Saviour he asked them who had brought the Message of God, Sin & Repentance to them? Oddly, they told him that nobody had come to them and he was the first man to come with this message from the Bible?
So again he asked them, how did you find out about Jesus?
They pointed to an old man and said, 'he told us! One night Jesus spoke to him in a dream, when he woke up he prayed to Jesus for forgiveness and thanked Him for dying for him on the Cross, then he told the rest of us what Jesus has told him; and now we all follow Jesus too! The Missionary was understandably staggered, but then thought to himself, God appeared to people in dreams in the Old & New Testament accounts, so why in remote places, should God not be doing the same today?

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As a child I used to listen to stories told to us at school by the local priest

Even then I used to think this sounds a bit far fetched and when I was 12 or so and started independent thought instead of having religion spoken to me I came to the conclusion all these stories were silly and made up to indoctrinate and trick people

I felt really pissed off at all the time I had been forced to waste in church when I could have been out on a Sunday playing football or fishing and just enjoying life

Being forced to read the bible as a ten year old kid , communion , Sunday school , absolute nonsense

It's all a con trick

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

As a child I used to listen to stories told to us at school by the local priest

Even then I used to think this sounds a bit far fetched and when I was 12 or so and started independent thought instead of having religion spoken to me I came to the conclusion all these stories were silly and made up to indoctrinate and trick people

I felt really pissed off at all the time I had been forced to waste in church when I could have been out on a Sunday playing football or fishing and just enjoying life

Being forced to read the bible as a ten year old kid , communion , Sunday school , absolute nonsense

It's all a con trick

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"Local Priest" - I see the problem, a Church that pays little attention to the Bible, there are NO priests appointed within the New Testament Church, which is the foundational document for all Churches honouring the authority of the Bible since the first century AD.

So yes, you are rejecting man-made religion, which as you put it is a con-trick. I also reject it.

"Being forced to read the bible as a ten year old kid" - obviously without anyone who was able to understand why it connected with the real world you were living in; I've heard this story repeated so many times from thousands of people. Yet children much younger than ten have been (and are still being) taught properly from the Bible and a number of them have grown up to become highly educated individuals at the top of thir field, still with a deep respect for God's Word and read it daily for wisdom, guidance and strength.

Here is someone near the top of their field in acting - you've probably watched a few of his movies > Denzel