Amsterdam Violence

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

How do we know that they were more serious? Even if they were, you’re showing your bias by arguing that the so called revenge attacks were more serious and devastating than the original attack, that’s contrary to the position you have adopted with Gaza where you’ve defended the Israelis.

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Spot on again , up the creek with no paddle

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Well five were hospitalised, there were 60 arrests, 7 of which were Israeli. Also the authorities in Amsterdam are quoted as saying so and emphasising the antisemitic nature of them.

I think people need to explain why all of that is untrue and why the authorities are lying before accusing others of bias etc. it's flirting with a pretty big and old conspiracy theory!

Reading though this makes quite clear that the authorities are aware of what happened but not of it justifies what followed. That seems a reasonable conclusion to me.
https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland...aviv~bae84eed/

I dont engage much with the Israel/ Palestine debates because I think it's an impossible situation. I think there's extremists on both sides. It definitely shouldn't be used to justify violence thousands of miles away and certainly isn't a reason to start disbelieving the authorities on the ground.

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Why do you call on people you disagree with to explain themselves, when you’ve done nothing to address the fact (emphasis fact) that two people who videod events on the night have said that those videos featured Tel Aviv fans, not a bunch of anti Semites as reported by the likes of CNN and the BBC. Also, I don’t think there’s been any mention from you as to why Sky completely changed the emphasis of their reporting from what they said originally has there?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Why do you call on people you disagree with to explain themselves, when you’ve done nothing to address the fact (emphasis fact) that two people who videod events on the night have said that those videos featured Tel Aviv fans, not a bunch of anti Semites as reported by the likes of CNN and the BBC. Also, I don’t think there’s been any mention from you as to why Sky completely changed the emphasis of their reporting from what they said originally has there?

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Why do you think that an internet video of one incident trumps the opinion of the Dutch Prime Minister, Mayor Of Amsterdam, chief of police etc?

Will this be your consistent approach to riots now?

The police arrested people on both sides. We know that. But the authorities have clearly stated that this in no way justified what followed.

I'll repeat a selection of the quotes. Not from internet interviews. But from people responsible for managing the city in question who will have full account of details.

Why do you so blithely dismiss it?

Authorities say Thursday's attacks - which caused five people to be hospitalised - were motivated by antisemitism as the fans were sought out across the city."

"We must not turn blind eye to antisemitism, says Dutch king after attacks on Israeli football fans"

"I am deeply ashamed of the behaviour that unfolded," Halsema told reporters. "On Telegram [messaging] groups people talked of going to hunt down Jews. It's so terrible I can't find the words for it."

"The national co-ordinator for combating antisemitism in the Netherlands said a line had been crossed and the "readiness to commit such violence was disgusting".

Prime Minister Dick Schoof said earlier on Monday that "antisemitic attacks against Israelis and Jews" were "nothing short of shocking and reprehensible".

"Halsema and the heads of the Dutch police and prosecution said at a press conference on Friday that violence by “rioters and criminals” aimed at some of the 2,600 “Jewish Israeli visitors” had left five people in hospital and 20 to 30 with minor injuries. There were reports of fireworks set off, people being thrown into canals and some Maccabi supporters being asked for identity documents in order to be allowed back to their hotels."

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Why do you think that an internet video of one incident trumps the opinion of the Dutch Prime Minister, Mayor Of Amsterdam, chief of police etc?

Will this be your consistent approach to riots now?

The police arrested people on both sides. We know that. But the authorities have clearly stated that this in no way justified what followed.

I'll repeat a selection of the quotes. Not from internet interviews. But from people responsible for managing the city in question who will have full account of details.

Why do you so blithely dismiss it?

Authorities say Thursday's attacks - which caused five people to be hospitalised - were motivated by antisemitism as the fans were sought out across the city."

"We must not turn blind eye to antisemitism, says Dutch king after attacks on Israeli football fans"

"I am deeply ashamed of the behaviour that unfolded," Halsema told reporters. "On Telegram [messaging] groups people talked of going to hunt down Jews. It's so terrible I can't find the words for it."

"The national co-ordinator for combating antisemitism in the Netherlands said a line had been crossed and the "readiness to commit such violence was disgusting".

Prime Minister Dick Schoof said earlier on Monday that "antisemitic attacks against Israelis and Jews" were "nothing short of shocking and reprehensible".

"Halsema and the heads of the Dutch police and prosecution said at a press conference on Friday that violence by “rioters and criminals” aimed at some of the 2,600 “Jewish Israeli visitors” had left five people in hospital and 20 to 30 with minor injuries. There were reports of fireworks set off, people being thrown into canals and some Maccabi supporters being asked for identity documents in order to be allowed back to their hotels."

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It's a video filmed by a journalist , that's why it is believed

Who has been interviewed about it

It's a fact

There is no " opinion " about it

Unlike your twaddle on here

You are an embarrassment to yourself sometimes how you can use the word blithely dismiss about other is perfect in describing your brass neck

The comments about the events by NM news journalists on here are perfect to describe the situation being presented and perfect for describing you

You simply won't accept that even you can be wrong but you are

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Why do you think that an internet video of one incident trumps the opinion of the Dutch Prime Minister, Mayor Of Amsterdam, chief of police etc?

Will this be your consistent approach to riots now?

The police arrested people on both sides. We know that. But the authorities have clearly stated that this in no way justified what followed.

I'll repeat a selection of the quotes. Not from internet interviews. But from people responsible for managing the city in question who will have full account of details.

Why do you so blithely dismiss it?

Authorities say Thursday's attacks - which caused five people to be hospitalised - were motivated by antisemitism as the fans were sought out across the city."

"We must not turn blind eye to antisemitism, says Dutch king after attacks on Israeli football fans"

"I am deeply ashamed of the behaviour that unfolded," Halsema told reporters. "On Telegram [messaging] groups people talked of going to hunt down Jews. It's so terrible I can't find the words for it."

"The national co-ordinator for combating antisemitism in the Netherlands said a line had been crossed and the "readiness to commit such violence was disgusting".

Prime Minister Dick Schoof said earlier on Monday that "antisemitic attacks against Israelis and Jews" were "nothing short of shocking and reprehensible".

"Halsema and the heads of the Dutch police and prosecution said at a press conference on Friday that violence by “rioters and criminals” aimed at some of the 2,600 “Jewish Israeli visitors” had left five people in hospital and 20 to 30 with minor injuries. There were reports of fireworks set off, people being thrown into canals and some Maccabi supporters being asked for identity documents in order to be allowed back to their hotels."

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If you weren't so one eyed you'd quickly understand why a report from an eye witness and journalist who was actually amongst the rioters as the events unfolded would trump anything the authorities would say.

It's painfully simple: she was there at the time and she has no ulterior motive other than to report the facts. On the other hand, the Dutch Prime Minister, The Dutch King, the Mayor of Amsterdam and the Chief of Police were not at the scene at the time and received at best second hand reports. Moreover, they all share an ulterior motive which does not permit unbiased assessment.

Like Sludge said your cherished right wing faith has kippered you in this thread

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Why do you call on people you disagree with to explain themselves, when you’ve done nothing to address the fact (emphasis fact) that two people who videod events on the night have said that those videos featured Tel Aviv fans, not a bunch of anti Semites as reported by the likes of CNN and the BBC. Also, I don’t think there’s been any mention from you as to why Sky completely changed the emphasis of their reporting from what they said originally has there?

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Yes indeed

Why have sky news initially reported the violence filmed as being poor , innocent (sic) Jewish fans being attacked ?

Because it was local Arabic youths being chased and assaulted by these poor innocent Jewish etc etc etc

What's that abut then jimbo ?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

Why do you call on people you disagree with to explain themselves, when you’ve done nothing to address the fact (emphasis fact) that two people who videod events on the night have said that those videos featured Tel Aviv fans, not a bunch of anti Semites as reported by the likes of CNN and the BBC. Also, I don’t think there’s been any mention from you as to why Sky completely changed the emphasis of their reporting from what they said originally has there?

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This dangerous nonsense is not too dissimilar to the witch hunt perpetrated on Jeremy Corbyn by the present incumbents of Labour's top table, among others.

This conflation of anti - Zionism and anti-Semitism (by the way I hate using this term, it's so corrupted) is so wicked it needs to be called out as it's often a ploy used to excuse Israeli excesses.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

It's a video filmed by a journalist , that's why it is believed

Who has been interviewed about it

It's a fact

There is no " opinion " about it

Unlike your twaddle on here

You are an embarrassment to yourself sometimes how you can use the word blithely dismiss about other is perfect in describing your brass neck

The comments about the events by NM news journalists on here are perfect to describe the situation being presented and perfect for describing you

You simply won't accept that even you can be wrong but you are

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But I do accept the video. The video feeds into the much wider conclusions that have been drawn, and it is those that YOU do not seem to accept.

For you to label anyone one eyed is quite something Sludge!

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

This dangerous nonsense is not too dissimilar to the witch hunt perpetrated on Jeremy Corbyn by the present incumbents of Labour's top table, among others.

This conflation of anti - Zionism and anti-Semitism (by the way I hate using this term, it's so corrupted) is so wicked it needs to be called out as it's often a ploy used to excuse Israeli excesses.

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Well the Dutch parliament is debating anti semitism today and the Dutch cabinet is presenting a plan on Friday.

Quite clearly you, Bob or Sludge need to email over a link to this game changing Owen Jones video pronto cos it clearly undermines what all the supposed experts in the police and government think.

"In The Hague, meanwhile, the Lower House debate has begun on the riots. This comes a day after the Amsterdam city council debated the events of the past week. The cabinet is working on measures against anti-Semitism; it wants to present a concrete plan on Friday."

https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland...aviv~bae84eed/

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Well the Dutch parliament is debating anti semitism today and the Dutch cabinet is presenting a plan on Friday.

Quite clearly you, Bob or Sludge need to email over a link to this game changing Owen Jones video pronto cos it clearly undermines what all the supposed experts in the police and government think.

"In The Hague, meanwhile, the Lower House debate has begun on the riots. This comes a day after the Amsterdam city council debated the events of the past week. The cabinet is working on measures against anti-Semitism; it wants to present a concrete plan on Friday."

https://www.volkskrant.nl/binnenland...aviv~bae84eed/

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I think you missed the point. The Dutch government doesn't need any evidence; they have an agenda to maintain.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

I think you missed the point. The Dutch government doesn't need any evidence; they have an agenda to maintain.

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I'm sure it is! All seems to be coming back to a big ole conspiracy!

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

I'm sure it is! All seems to be coming back to a big ole conspiracy!

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Now you're talking!

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Now you're talking!

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At least we know now that you are arguing from a conspiracy theory perspective. Thanks for making it clear 😊👍

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

At least we know now that you are arguing from a conspiracy theory perspective. Thanks for making it clear 😊👍

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No not at all, of course you're twisting things as ever to suit your right wing agenda. There are none so blind as those that refuse to see 😵

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

No not at all, of course you're twisting things as ever to suit your right wing agenda. There are none so blind as those that refuse to see 😵

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🤣

I thought we had made some progress then!

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

🤣

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It would be impossible to make progress with a clown like you 🤡

What is interesting is that the positioning and language of the key groups that James has referenced, Mayor, Chief of Police and Prime Minister has moved over time.

Perhaps unsurprisingly the Prime Minister of the recently elected right wing coalition who came to power on an anti-immigration ticket has maintained and hardened its line that this was anti-semitism, pure and simple.

However, the Mayor and the Chief of Amsterdam Police have softened their position calling it a "toxic cocktail" but apportioning responsibility for the cause and effect more broadly than their initial statements. They have produced an authoritative letter chronicling events before, during and after the violence. It is well worth a read. No group comes out of this well and it also shows the political pressure being brought to bare from Israel and elsewhere.

It's opening paragraph gives an insight into the events:

On 8 November, horrifying images shocked the world after the night that Amsterdam had endured. Four days later, anger, fear, and disbelief still prevail. We have seen footage of Israeli football supporters being pursued, attacked, and brutalized; screenshots of antisemitic messages calling for a ‘hunt on Jews’, and videos filled with hate-fueled, racist chants against ‘Arabs’. From the tearing down and burning of a Palestinian flag to targeted assaults on Jewish and Israeli supporters, numerous antisemitic expressions were made. The local authorities (consisting of the mayor, police chief, and chief public prosecutor) explicitly emphasize that violence by one party is never an excuse for violence by another. These events have targeted our city, and citizens.

https://assets.amsterdam.nl/publish/...rmber_2024.pdf

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

But I do accept the video. The video feeds into the much wider conclusions that have been drawn, and it is those that YOU do not seem to accept.

For you to label anyone one eyed is quite something Sludge!

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You accept that the video was shown on news channels as local Muslims attacking poor innocent Israeli football fans ?

If you accept that then you accept that this was in fact a complete lie by the newscaster you ask us to believe?

The video was in fact a film by an independent journalist of .......Israeli thugs attacking Muslim youths ........that's a fact ......you accept this ?

Yes ?

If you therfore accept this then you are accepting that your initial views and comments are completely wrong and based on false information ? Was the views of others that you quote ?

If that's what you are saying .....then we accept your mistake ....it takes a man to accept he makes errors.....well done

Is this , hopefully , your admission that you were wrong ?

Simple question , one word answer

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

At least we know now that you are arguing from a conspiracy theory perspective. Thanks for making it clear 😊👍

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He's arguing from a factual viewpoint

Are you saying that video evidence is now false ?

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Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays

What is interesting is that the positioning and language of the key groups that James has referenced, Mayor, Chief of Police and Prime Minister has moved over time.

Perhaps unsurprisingly the Prime Minister of the recently elected right wing coalition who came to power on an anti-immigration ticket has maintained and hardened its line that this was anti-semitism, pure and simple.

However, the Mayor and the Chief of Amsterdam Police have softened their position calling it a "toxic cocktail" but apportioning responsibility for the cause and effect more broadly than their initial statements. They have produced an authoritative letter chronicling events before, during and after the violence. It is well worth a read. No group comes out of this well and it also shows the political pressure being brought to bare from Israel and elsewhere.

It's opening paragraph gives an insight into the events:

On 8 November, horrifying images shocked the world after the night that Amsterdam had endured. Four days later, anger, fear, and disbelief still prevail. We have seen footage of Israeli football supporters being pursued, attacked, and brutalized; screenshots of antisemitic messages calling for a ‘hunt on Jews’, and videos filled with hate-fueled, racist chants against ‘Arabs’. From the tearing down and burning of a Palestinian flag to targeted assaults on Jewish and Israeli supporters, numerous antisemitic expressions were made. The local authorities (consisting of the mayor, police chief, and chief public prosecutor) explicitly emphasize that violence by one party is never an excuse for violence by another. These events have targeted our city, and citizens.

https://assets.amsterdam.nl/publish/...rmber_2024.pdf

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The latest news is that due to the result of the recent US election the Israeli government is emboldened to seek US support to achieve legal sanction to the annexing of the West Bank. I wonder if the Dutch government will be one of the first in line to endorse this plan?

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

He's arguing from a factual viewpoint

Are you saying that video evidence is now false ?

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The video of one small part of several days worth of disorder is a snapshot. It feeds into the broader conclusion that authorities in Amsterdam have made.

It's like pointing to one small part of any riot or incident and pretending it shows the full story. It doesn't.

The authorities have quite clearly said that serious incidents of antisemitism occured alongside other disorder. The latest example of this is given in Cyril's post above.

No one disputes that. That's what I have literally said from the very first post on this thread. I've stuck to that line because all the evidence suggests it's the truth.

I have no idea what your motivation is on this thread. I find it truly bizarre and a touch disturbing tbh, but it seems to keep coming back to some desire to prove that there was no antisemitic incidents when everything points to the fact there was and I dont know why you (and others) can't accept that.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The video of one small part of several days worth of disorder is a snapshot. It feeds into the broader conclusion that authorities in Amsterdam have made.

It's like pointing to one small part of any riot or incident and pretending it shows the full story. It doesn't.

The authorities have quite clearly said that serious incidents of antisemitism occured alongside other disorder. The latest example of this is given in Cyril's post above.

No one disputes that. That's what I have literally said from the very first post on this thread. I've stuck to that line because all the evidence suggests it's the truth.

I have no idea what your motivation is on this thread. I find it truly bizarre and a touch disturbing tbh, but it seems to keep coming back to some desire to prove that there was no antisemitic incidents when everything points to the fact there was and I dont know why you (and others) can't accept that.

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Thugs burning flags, beating up a taxi driver and chanting horrible slogans about dead innocent children is a situation which is very likely to inflame tensions. You can call it anti-Semitism if it fits more snugly with your agenda but some of us see it as the retaliatory demonstration of repugnance at crass misbehaviour.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

The video of one small part of several days worth of disorder is a snapshot. It feeds into the broader conclusion that authorities in Amsterdam have made.

It's like pointing to one small part of any riot or incident and pretending it shows the full story. It doesn't.

The authorities have quite clearly said that serious incidents of antisemitism occured alongside other disorder. The latest example of this is given in Cyril's post above.

No one disputes that. That's what I have literally said from the very first post on this thread. I've stuck to that line because all the evidence suggests it's the truth.

I have no idea what your motivation is on this thread. I find it truly bizarre and a touch disturbing tbh, but it seems to keep coming back to some desire to prove that there was no antisemitic incidents when everything points to the fact there was and I dont know why you (and others) can't accept that.

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My motivation is nothing to do with anti Semitic nonsense .......that's the second time you have mentioned that......I pulled you up on it previously and said where have I suggested you are anti Semitic? .....please don't insult my intelligence as you have just done it again here

This video report .......answer the question you keep dodging

Why was it portrayed as Muslims attacking Israeli fans ?

To be concerned about clear misinformation is attacked as anti Semitic........and there are plenty of people far more important than you who have been guilty of this

The end of the video you time after time keep ignoring is hilarious as it points out that every Tom, dick and Harry is wading in on the side of this complete stitch up .....and it's worth you , even in secret , watching it

I think you will wince though

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Thugs burning flags, beating up a taxi driver and chanting horrible slogans about dead innocent children is a situation which is very likely to inflame tensions. You can call it anti-Semitism if it fits more snugly with your agenda but some of us see it as the retaliatory demonstration of repugnance at crass misbehaviour.

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Of course it will inflame tensions. It doesn't justify arbitrary abuse and violence towards people unconnected to it because of their religion or nationality or anything else!

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

My motivation is nothing to do with anti Semitic nonsense .......that's the second time you have mentioned that......I pulled you up on it previously and said where have I suggested you are anti Semitic? .....please don't insult my intelligence as you have just done it again here

This video report .......answer the question you keep dodging

Why was it portrayed as Muslims attacking Israeli fans ?

To be concerned about clear misinformation is attacked as anti Semitic........and there are plenty of people far more important than you who have been guilty of this

The end of the video you time after time keep ignoring is hilarious as it points out that every Tom, dick and Harry is wading in on the side of this complete stitch up .....and it's worth you , even in secret , watching it

I think you will wince though

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Stop going on about the video! Everyone has seen it! It's a snapshot of a lot of events. My god.

If your intention is nothing to do with trying to suggest nothing antisemitic happened then why are you posting it? Cos that's what everyone involved has concluded. Why can't you accept it?!

It's like Cardiff City losing 3-1 and you showing th video of us scoring and demanding it means we won!