Hammering For Labour In Hartlepool

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Thank you , thats a very interesting article

The working class pro Labour vote that has been lost will see in time that they will be dumped and left behind once the conservatives have used them

What needs to happen now , in England at least , is the formation of an alternative mainstream party to win back those voters when they realise they have been conned

They are not going to return to Labour, its dead . Dead in Scotland and dying in England .

Its all over , its 2021 and I hope those that don't vote tory can be offered an alternative

Those of a centre left , middle ground and former Liberal voting persuasion can be united and if the Labour brand in England is dropped and a clean slate is offered that core Labour vote may join up .


Otherwise its curtains

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That article, which is a good one I reckon, sets out the problems facing Labour and the clear message is that the two sides, which spend more time arguing with each other, than doing what I, poor naive soul that I am, believe they should be doing (providing a proper opposition to a Government who surely cannot believe how easy they're having it at the moment) should get their act together.

There is nothing to suggest in recent history that your new party would work or take off - that was tried a few years ago with Change UK, does it still exist?

Similarly, why does the left wing of the Labour Party believe that all of these votes which they're losing in places like Hartlepool would return if only the party returned to the Corbyn approach which was responsible for the worst defeat in God knows how long just eighteen months ago? When has Labour ever won with what I'd call a real left wing socialist agenda? 1945 maybe, but that's it.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I've been bemused as to why people in certain areas of the country have decided to vote for a party that has been in Government for eleven years and appear to be holding the party which has been in opposition for all of that time responsible for their lives not being as they'd want them to be - that makes no sense to me and, as Delbert says, blaming Labour councils for what's going wrong when they are having to work within the financial constraints imposed on them by the Conservative Government in Westminster seems barmy.

I keep on waiting to see something from people living in areas like Hartlepool which can logically explain why they are now voting in large numbers for a party which their parents and grandparents would never have trusted and I've not seen anything yet which satisfactorily explains it. However, one thing which is emerging is that people in Hartlepool, and many other towns like it, no longer feel the Labour party represents them and this is a situation which, frankly, the party should be ashamed of.

For now, we're hearing stuff from Labour about how they've lost the trust of the working class, but that looks like crocodile tears to me cried before a return to normal business (i.e. bashing the other side of the party). One comment which id register with me was that it's becoming harder to tell Labour and Tory MPs apart - for all of their talk of the working class, Jeremy Corbyn and his cohorts do not represent those who belong in it and it's becoming obvious that significant numbers of working people struggle to see a difference between them and many in the Conservative party.

Labour have got a huge task on their hands trying to unite groups within it that are no longer united in the way they once were and nothing they've done since the 2019 election suggests they're up to it, but they still represent the best chance for the tens of millions in this country (there are not tens of millions of people in this country who vote tory) who feel they cannot support the Conservatives - they are letting millions of people down at present and will continue to do so until the penny drops that the huge majority of this country are not interested in the endless arguments about who is to blame within the party - they all are for helping create a situation where and governing party can become as lazy, incompetent and arrogant in their behaviour as they like safe in the knowledge that there is no opposition out there to keep them on their game.

https://tribunemag.co.uk/2021/05/lab...rmers-disaster

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Meanwhile, the pattern of Labour’s few successes last night seems relatively clear. Andy Burnham—one of those centre-left leaders who has learned the new terrain—is expected to romp home as Greater Manchester mayor. He pursued exactly the kind of combative approach to the Tories that the Left has called for since the beginning of the pandemic, and combined it with a specific pledge on progressive policy—taking buses back into public control—which promised real change in the lives of his electorate.

In Salford, meanwhile, a left-wing Labour mayor who has pursued radical policies in local government, built the first council housing in a decade, and flies the red flag over town hall on May Day seems likely to achieve a similarly impressive result. He represents an area which, like Hartlepool, is an ageing, post-industrial Labour heartland which struggled in the wake of the demise of its docks and historic engineering industry that voted strongly for Leave and ranks among the top 20 most deprived local authorities in the country out of 317. And yet, there is no Labour catastrophe in his backyard.

Even amid the ruins of these elections, there are examples we can learn from. Andy Burnham’s messaging has been disciplined but confrontational. It tapped into the widespread popular resentment which exists towards Boris Johnson and his government, despite these latest results. But more pertinently for the Left, Mayor Paul Dennett’s local government approach has delivered meaningful change in working-class people’s lives and sustained Salford’s sense of community which has been allowed to disintegrate in far too many of the places which built this party and movement over the past century.

Salford, and its equally inspiring neighbour Preston, could have been held up as models during these local elections by a Labour leadership committed to transforming society. It could have talked about living wage jobs, insourcing, social care, council housing, Community Wealth Building or any number of other initiatives which would have motivated voters to turn out and support the party. But that is not the Starmer way.

Labour reshuffle today apparently according to Sky News

Labour centre:

- Nothing that happened under Blair has contributed to Tory dominance ever since. It's all the fault of the Labour left.

Labour left:

- Nothing that happened over past 10 years has contributed to Tory dominance ever since - it's someone else's fault and we'll never accept centre ousting us as they did under Blair.

Literally everyone else:

- You can't win votes unless you both accept that you got some things wrong and some things right. Form a broad church of voters by recognising you're in the 2020's now rather than being stuck in the late 1990's/early 2000's or stuck in 2017. We thought that was the reason behind promoting Starmer to leader?

Tory party:

- This is so easy. Here's to 9 more years.

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Looking forward to a searing book-length exposé from a journalist from the Home Counties on how the Conservatives have left behind their heartlands…

"There is a Labour Metro Mayor for John Major's old constituency, Margaret Thatcher's old constituency has a Labour Assembly Member and David Cameron's house has a Labour county councillor"

https://twitter.com/jamesrbuk/status...62055538679811

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Isn't it possible that the young and new working class have just left the north of England are decades of government's centralising investment into the south of England and austerity deliberately targeting traditional northern Labour arears?

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Originally Posted by surge

Labour centre:

- Nothing that happened under Blair has contributed to Tory dominance ever since. It's all the fault of the Labour left.

Labour left:

- Nothing that happened over past 10 years has contributed to Tory dominance ever since - it's someone else's fault and we'll never accept centre ousting us as they did under Blair.

Literally everyone else:

- You can't win votes unless you both accept that you got some things wrong and some things right. Form a broad church of voters by recognising you're in the 2020's now rather than being stuck in the late 1990's/early 2000's or stuck in 2017. We thought that was the reason behind promoting Starmer to leader?

Tory party:

- This is so easy. Here's to 9 more years.

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:thumbup:

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

6000 majority for the tories

Not only does starmer need to go , I think its the end of Labour

Time for a left of centre party, Labour is done . I vote for them because I will never vote conservative but they are finished in my opinion

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Labour have lost the support of the traditional traditional working class man. It started with smary Blair and the self-serving smaryites, and the last death for the party knell was Sir Kier Starmer taking the knee to an out and out Marxist organisation. That one dumb move alone, probably cost Labour thousands of votes in Hartlepool. It's time the Labour luvvies left London and moved north if they want to understand what their traditional voters want, and how to get them back.

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Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68

Labour have lost the support of the traditional traditional working class man. It started with smary Blair and the self-serving smaryites, and the last death for the party knell was Sir Kier Starmer taking the knee to an out and out Marxist organisation. That one dumb move alone, probably cost Labour thousands of votes in Hartlepool. It's time the Labour luvvies left London and moved north if they want to understand what their traditional voters want, and how to get them back.

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It really is simple IMO.

Drop identity politics, show some pride in the country and keep the likes of Owen Jones and Ash Sakar at a looooong distance.

Don’t allow the likes of Lady Nugee pour scorn on the electorate and the provincial voters can return.

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

It really is simple IMO.

Drop identity politics, show some pride in the country and keep the likes of Owen Jones and Ash Sakar at a looooong distance.

Don’t allow the likes of Lady Nugee pour scorn on the electorate and the provincial voters can return.

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I think its too late and time for change

Its 2021

Its a busted flush

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

I think its too late and time for change

Its 2021

Its a busted flush

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Maybe Blue Labour will be considered by the NEC. Zero chance of it happening, but
that’s what I would like to see.

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Originally Posted by Mr Soul '68

Labour have lost the support of the traditional traditional working class man. It started with smary Blair and the self-serving smaryites, and the last death for the party knell was Sir Kier Starmer taking the knee to an out and out Marxist organisation. That one dumb move alone, probably cost Labour thousands of votes in Hartlepool. It's time the Labour luvvies left London and moved north if they want to understand what their traditional voters want, and how to get them back.

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How many people describe the decision makers in the media as metropolitan elite? How can they argue that the culture these decision makers are born into affects their decision making and doesn't reflect people in Hartlepool or necessarily treat them fairly but not say minorities experience a similar thing?

There is no such thing as a traditional voter now - those traditional working class people now have more capital and security than most.

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Originally Posted by surge

There is no such thing as a traditional voter now - those traditional working class people now have more capital and security than most.

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Really?
Zero Hour Contracts, Call Center workers?

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Originally Posted by Wash DC Blue

Really?
Zero Hour Contracts, Call Center workers?

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True. Working class has expanded so that you can be traditionally and culturally working class but be far stronger economically (or not) than new working class people - still much in common but a "working class person's vote" can go in very different directions and can be based on very different things.

Labour are in that awful position where they can't win elections without lying about what they believe in. The equation is simpler for the smaller parties because they can just be who and what they want to be and retain their base. Simpler again for the Tories because as a collective they have absolutely no problem with lying.

I don't really know what labour can do but pretending this is all solved by changing leader is nonsense.

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Originally Posted by SLUDGE FACTORY

Can you tell me how living in tooting in 1977 , shouting power to the people but not actually getting any power to do anything about it is going to help addiction , mental ill health etc ?

I mean having a good old meeting of the socialist workers student society round your house is a good laugh but it doesn't win you elections . Moving to the centre is not the end of civilisation as long as social policy is paramout .

Its 2021 , this country has always been to right with a small c , those of us who can't stand the conservatives have to lower our expectations and try and get what we can

Or forever be shouting from the sidelines in opposition

Electoral reform and a centre left rainbow alliance is the way to defeat the blue machine

Like it or get off the bus

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you are absolutely spot on here Sludge. The UK is predominantly centre right, and hasn't had a left wing government in nearly 50 years. Some people on the left are so deluded. It is better to have a centre left in strength than a weak left wing.

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Originally Posted by Feedback

you are absolutely spot on here Sludge. The UK is predominantly centre right, and hasn't had a left wing government in nearly 50 years. Some people on the left are so deluded. It is better to have a centre left in strength than a weak left wing.

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I will never vote Conservative

I will vote for an electable left of centre party that has a social policy background on issues like transport , the NHS

In Wales we have a strong Labour vote that can deliver some sort of social conscience to the modern age

So I will continue to vote for it even though it needs sharpening up

But UK wide its burnt beyond recognition

And in 20 years I can see either the tories still in power or a UK wide left of centre alternative

The opposition vote to the tories used to be propped up by Scottish and Welsh Labour, the Northern towns and inner city London

Now thats up for grabs

I can and hope Welsh Labour survives and a social alliance party brings everyone together in England who doesn't vote tory and they can team up

My opinion is if this doesn't happen the country will be forever tory

And fringe meetings and tony benn t shirts will gather dust

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Originally Posted by Feedback

you are absolutely spot on here Sludge. The UK is predominantly centre right, and hasn't had a left wing government in nearly 50 years. Some people on the left are so deluded. It is better to have a centre left in strength than a weak left wing.

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That is a very important point look at the last eleven elections for Labour and you will only find 3 wins under the name of Blair who drove the party to the middle ground and won 3 time one a huge landslide , I know it doesn't fit nicely with some Labour voters I wonder how big the majority would have been in December with Boris v Blair clash or Boris v David Miliband .

Wales need to be careful though success yes, however Tories did gain more seats , if they apply the tactics they have up in NE England it could change

Party in government always ends up stealing best ideas of the opposition. Economically, Boris' 2019 manifesto was closer to Ed Milliband in 2010's than it was David Cameron/George Osbourne.

Does that mean UK is centre-left just 10 years too late for Labour to win votes?

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Originally Posted by Elwood Blues

Labour reshuffle today apparently according to Sky News

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that went so well

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Originally Posted by surge

....

They've combined that with a creeping authoritarian, regressive culture which attacks opposition in any form in a way that would make Trump or Orban (Hungary) proud.

I had a conversation yesterday with a conservative voter (small c) who said they'd never vote Tory again because of what they're currently doing economically and culturally. We're not hearing that yet because i) how popular this political position is (economically centre-left, culturally right, authoritarian) and ii) Tories are still a party friendly to billionaire's.

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Not sure if anyone is still reading this thread/how long it can go on for before being moved to politics section. I will quietly add that the Queen's Speech today has some people concerned based on what I've said above and leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I keep on waiting to see something from people living in areas like Hartlepool which can logically explain why they are now voting in large numbers for a party which their parents and grandparents would never have trusted and I've not seen anything yet which satisfactorily explains it. However, one thing which is emerging is that people in Hartlepool, and many other towns like it, no longer feel the Labour party represents them and this is a situation which, frankly, the party should be ashamed of.

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Some young voters in Hartlepool were interviewed on TV recently. As you say, they admitted that their parents/grandparents were horrified that they could even contemplate voting Conservative. The problem is that the older generation are stuck in a 1980's Maggie Thatcher time-warp (closure of the mines etc) about which young people have no direct knowledge. One also mentioned
corruption amongst local Labour councillors (heaven forbid, surely not) as a reason for turning her back on the Labour party. Maybe these young people do not seem themselves as the old traditional working class people anymore and therefore the Labour party is irrelevant to them?

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Some young voters in Hartlepool were interviewed on TV recently. As you say, they admitted that their parents/grandparents were horrified that they could even contemplate voting Conservative. The problem is that the older generation are stuck in a 1980's Maggie Thatcher time-warp (closure of the mines etc) about which young people have no direct knowledge. One also mentioned
corruption amongst local Labour councillors (heaven forbid, surely not) as a reason for turning her back on the Labour party. Maybe these young people do not seem themselves as the old traditional working class people anymore and therefore the Labour party is irrelevant to them?

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Good point, The Tories sold off or closed the industries and manufacturing bases that were the life blood of places like Hartlepool. Diluted workers rights and kicked services into touch. These poor youngsters don't even know what it is to be working class, even though they are. Even that has been stripped away from them, And Labour are just as responsible in my book.

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Originally Posted by Tuerto

Good point, The Tories sold off or closed the industries and manufacturing bases that were the life blood of places like Hartlepool. Diluted workers rights and kicked services into touch. These poor youngsters don't even know what it is to be working class, even though they are. Even that has been stripped away from them, And Labour are just as responsible in my book.

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the thing is, Young people do not want to be working class, they aspire to better themselves, which is exactly what the Tories tap into

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Originally Posted by blue matt

the thing is, Young people do not want to be working class, they aspire to better themselves, which is exactly what the Tories tap into

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The real cloth capped traditional down trodden working class have gone.

The issue for me is they look at Labour and see a metropolitan woke elite party and it doesn't tick their box .

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Originally Posted by Feedback

you are absolutely spot on here Sludge. The UK is predominantly centre right, and hasn't had a left wing government in nearly 50 years. Some people on the left are so deluded. It is better to have a centre left in strength than a weak left wing.

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Or better still to introduce a political system which allows politicians to be themselves, display their values to the electorate and gain votes based on that position rather than what we have now. FPTP is so anti-democratic that it isn't even funny to watch anymore. I would take the repugnant prospect of a handful of mental BNP types included in a truly representative parliament over different shades of lying that we have now.

Starmer is getting hammered for doing what has won the Tories the last 2 elections - no policy detail, just vague statements. It's genius spin from the Tories (as usual, adopted readily by a friendly press and pushed down every orifice). Labour now have to risk pissing people off by saying what they will do.

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Originally Posted by blue matt

the thing is, Young people do not want to be working class, they aspire to better themselves, which is exactly what the Tories tap into

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Except young people overwhelmingly vote for anybody other than the Tories.

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Or better still to introduce a political system which allows politicians to be themselves, display their values to the electorate and gain votes based on that position rather than what we have now. FPTP is so anti-democratic that it isn't even funny to watch anymore. I would take the repugnant prospect of a handful of mental BNP types included in a truly representative parliament over different shades of lying that we have now.

Starmer is getting hammered for doing what has won the Tories the last 2 elections - no policy detail, just vague statements. It's genius spin from the Tories (as usual, adopted readily by a friendly press and pushed down every orifice). Labour now have to risk pissing people off by saying what they will do.

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Clegg hungry for power got his flimsy but better than nothing alternative vote from Cameron but the public were not interested , turnout was crap and they voted to keep fptp

The joy of government is that the people are stupid

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Except young people overwhelmingly vote for anybody other than the Tories.

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And then switch by their 40’s or 50’s by the look of it

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

Except young people overwhelmingly vote for anybody other than the Tories.

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sad to see that less than 50 percent of 16 and 17 year olds registered to vote

How many actually voted I don't know 😕

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Originally Posted by goats

And then switch by their 40’s or 50’s by the look of it

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watch it

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Originally Posted by blue matt

the thing is, Young people do not want to be working class, they aspire to better themselves, which is exactly what the Tories tap into

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This is only true if we're counting in their 50s as young and ignoring the people who are 18-35 who vote Labour in overwhelming numbers. In fact at the last election Labour won amongst people who were 18-24, 25-34 and 35-44. Their vote fell off a cliff among people who do remember Thatcher

Diane Abbot was off again yesterday publicly slagging off starmer for purging the corbyn branch of Labour

Whilst I think starmer is a crap leader its her very actions that make it clear to me that this is the very reason Labour is dead in the water

Her and the rest of the far left crew just cannot help themselves , mouthing off in public and backstabbing ........the divide between left and left of centre is enormous and will never be dealt with

She's a dreadful woman , claiming to be a socialist , slagging off the public school system .......which is fair enough .......but then sending her son to one 🙄

She's the MP for an inner city , poor London area !

Then making a few quid on top as a sort of political comedy double act ......which wasn't very funny .....with tory boy micheal portillo on the Andrew Neill show

Its all cobblers

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Originally Posted by goats

And then switch by their 40’s or 50’s by the look of it

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That could be true, can't see why it would be but it could be.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

The real cloth capped traditional down trodden working class have gone.

The issue for me is they look at Labour and see a metropolitan woke elite party and it doesn't tick their box .

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I concur. For me this Guardian article explains really well what's gone on https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...vantage-labour - many traditional labour voters are socially conservative on e.g. homosexuality, immigration, the royal family - Boris's team understand this. A good recent example is the story just before the recent elections about the new Royal Yacht - nothing concrete actually happened, it was just an announcement that the tories could get behind & which would provoke the lefties into a negative response. Leanne Wood & many others fell for it.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Gofer Blue

Some young voters in Hartlepool were interviewed on TV recently. As you say, they admitted that their parents/grandparents were horrified that they could even contemplate voting Conservative. The problem is that the older generation are stuck in a 1980's Maggie Thatcher time-warp (closure of the mines etc) about which young people have no direct knowledge. One also mentioned
corruption amongst local Labour councillors (heaven forbid, surely not) as a reason for turning her back on the Labour party. Maybe these young people do not seem themselves as the old traditional working class people anymore and therefore the Labour party is irrelevant to them?

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As pointed out after your message, the Labour party (and a few other opposition parties) do not have too many problems when it comes to young voters, it's the baby boomer generation (who, generally speaking, have had it so easy for most of their lives and are, in so many cases, quite an entitled lot) who are the problem. These are people who lived through Thatcherism and mines closing in the areas where they live and yet so many of them are still voting tory - it's not the deserting the Labour party (I'm fast losing patience with their endless civil wars) that baffles me, it's who they're deserting them for.

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Originally Posted by life on mars

The real cloth capped traditional down trodden working class have gone.

The issue for me is they look at Labour and see a metropolitan woke elite party and it doesn't tick their box .

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I looked up "woke" in an online dictionary, it said;-

"alert to injustice in society, especially racism."

The OED defines it as:-

"originally: well-informed, up-to-date. Now chiefly: alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice".

Now, I would be quite pleased to have someone describe me in such a manner, in fact, I'd be proud. However, now it appears on the ticlkist that all right wingers appear to use these days, it seems to be used more in a negative way with the person being described as "woke" being someone who should be despised - given how the term is defined in dictionaries, that says so much about the people who use the term in such a way nowadays.

[QUOTE=City123;5191150]This is only true if we're counting in their 50s as young and ignoring the people who are 18-35 who vote Labour in overwhelming numbers. In fact at the last election Labour won amongst people who were 18-24, 25-34 and 35-44. Their vote fell off a cliff among people who do remember Thatcher[/QUOTE]

Possibly the same people who also remember the 70's and the domination of the trade unions who abused their power?

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I looked up "woke" in an online dictionary, it said;-

"alert to injustice in society, especially racism."

The OED defines it as:-

"originally: well-informed, up-to-date. Now chiefly: alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice".

Now, I would be quite pleased to have someone describe me in such a manner, in fact, I'd be proud. However, now it appears on the ticlkist that all right wingers appear to use these days, it seems to be used more in a negative way with the person being described as "woke" being someone who should be despised - given how the term is defined in dictionaries, that says so much about the people who use the term in such a way nowadays.

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I know that a lot of people who describe people as woke are racists . I was seeing a woman who in no time displayed her true colours , raving racist , I was out of there

[QUOTE=Gofer Blue;5191170]

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Originally Posted by City123

This is only true if we're counting in their 50s as young and ignoring the people who are 18-35 who vote Labour in overwhelming numbers. In fact at the last election Labour won amongst people who were 18-24, 25-34 and 35-44. Their vote fell off a cliff among people who do remember Thatcher[/QUOTE]

Possibly the same people who also remember the 70's and the domination of the trade unions who abused their power?

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spoken like a true tory

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Originally Posted by the other bob wilson

I looked up "woke" in an online dictionary, it said;-

"alert to injustice in society, especially racism."

The OED defines it as:-

"originally: well-informed, up-to-date. Now chiefly: alert to racial or social discrimination and injustice".

Now, I would be quite pleased to have someone describe me in such a manner, in fact, I'd be proud. However, now it appears on the ticlkist that all right wingers appear to use these days, it seems to be used more in a negative way with the person being described as "woke" being someone who should be despised - given how the term is defined in dictionaries, that says so much about the people who use the term in such a way nowadays.

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To echo a point previously made, even Andrew Neil (he of GB news and it's "woke watch") agrees with woke behaviour.

Those most against it cannot define it, rarely engage with it and instead hear the phrase when it's one academic in Canada trying to "cancel" something in the UK with right wingers trying to tell them it's going to happen immediately unless you get outraged.

Cancel culture is another one that's badly used. For example, Lorraine Kelly told the world her personality is a product she sells to viewers, the line between a person and their product has become blurred, but if I refuse to buy into Lorraine Kelly and tell others why suddenly I'm cancelling her instead of simply engaging in (Theresa May approved) capitalism. Meanwhile Lorraine Kelly gets to give endless interviews and have a voice louder than ever. No one described Super League being scrapped as "cancel culture" but wasn't it the same thing?

Regardless, Tories have recognised the want for a more authoritarian, regressive culture giving the liberals a bashing and have attempted to combine that with an economic centre position. It's like the reverse of David Cameron's government when we all assumed that would be a Labour one which is partly why Labour are in so much trouble.