Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Why are we so concerned what those who cannot think believe?
There's often an egomaniacal assurance and a supposed path to an absolute "truth" that has led us down some foolish and dangerous socio-political paths.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
I'm not sure if the last sentence is directed at me, it's just a big contradiction I've always wondered about, same as if only believers get into heaven it seems a bit unfair that say a non believer who's dedicated their lives to saving children ends up in the same place as the Yorkshire Ripper.
I've got no quarrel with you and your beliefs though, it's not for me but I think religion and faith can be a good thing in that it gives people strength in testing times and in its best form leads people to do good, it's just the violent fanatics and those that abuse and misinterpret the core messages that make it the cause of so many problems, and unfortunately historically and currently there's a lot of them
I haven't come across many violent fanatical Christians recently and if I did, then by default they would be Christians in name only!
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Eric Cartman
Why are we so concerned what those who cannot think believe?
Wow.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
I haven't come across many violent fanatical Christians recently and if I did, then by default they would be Christians in name only!
How many violent fanatics of other religions have you come across?
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
How many violent fanatics of other religions have you come across?
In over 5 decades of having an interest in matters of fauth, I can only recall members of one group taking such violent and deadly actions. Unfortunately their understanding of their own prophecies means that many of them believe that they can personally accelerate the end-time events by bringing about such world instability.
In contrast those who read and understand Biblical Prophecy know that God is alone in control of all such future events and their timing on the world stage.
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
In over 5 decades of having an interest in matters of fauth, I can only recall members of one group taking such violent and deadly actions. Unfortunately their understanding of their own prophecies means that many of them believe that they can personally accelerate the end-time events by bringing about such world instability.
In contrast those who read and understand Biblical Prophecy know that God is alone in control of all such future events and their timing on the world stage.
Attachment 4615
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
In over 5 decades of having an interest in matters of fauth, I can only recall members of one group taking such violent and deadly actions. Unfortunately their understanding of their own prophecies means that many of them believe that they can personally accelerate the end-time events by bringing about such world instability.
In contrast those who read and understand Biblical Prophecy know that God is alone in control of all such future events and their timing on the world stage.
ohhh you mean the catholics...oh sorry the jews...opps the protastants..errr? muslims....sunni or shia? i could go on forever
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
delmbox
How many violent fanatics of other religions have you come across?
Truthpaste has beaten me to it. I suspect you know very well which religion is the elephant in the room here! Look no further than Afghanistan or even Pakistan where Christians are regularly murdered (some burned alive), churches and whole villages burned because someone "blasphemed". Because these events don't take place in the west they rarely make the news.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
Truthpaste has beaten me to it. I suspect you know very well which religion is the elephant in the room here! Look no further than Afghanistan or even Pakistan where Christians are regularly murdered (some burned alive), churches and whole villages burned because someone "blasphemed". Because these events don't take place in the west they rarely make the news.
It's getting to be a bit of a squeeze in this room with that elephant and the Catholic priest/child abuse on a massive scale shaped one next to it
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
It is generally accepted amongst scholars that the book of John was written between 90 and 100AD, so 60 – 70 years after the death of Jesus. Why would that make the contents unreliable? Compare this to say the recollections of surviving WW2 veterans, for example D-Day survivors who are still alive over 70 years after the event and who share their memories with us so they can be recorded for posterity – would you say their recollections are unreliable? I guess you could argue that the latter can be
corroborated by newsreel footage from the time but even that would not corroborate the recollections of individual soldiers unless in the highly unlikely event that a news cameraman was right alongside each one of them at the time and captured their every word/action on film. Unfortunately we do not have the benefit of newsreels from 33AD.
I suspect you would argue that in any case the events recorded in John are completely fictitious anyway so effectively ending any further discussion. My response to that would be what would be the motive for anyone to concoct such a narrative knowing that it was not true? It was hardly likely to become a best-selling kiss and tell story which might be the case in today's society nor was it likely to lead to the subjugation of the masses to church authority at that time which is another popular theory – that was already happily being undertaken by the Jewish authorities. (I do not deny that the Christian church became all powerful much later on but that was a perversion of the gospels and the reverse of everything that Jesus stood for). The reverse in fact – Christianity would have been seen as a potential threat to the stability of the ruling religious elite hence the mass persecution of the emerging church. It would have been a risky business to be a follower of Christ in those days, with many being put to death to try to eradicate the cause. Yet it flourished and grew!
Finally even if you are convinced that the whole thing is a complete cock and bull story, what is so wrong with the underlying sentiments of Jesus as recorded in the books of John and James, like love one another as I have loved you, love your neighbour as yourself, faith without works is dead etc? No-one can argue surely that these traits are desperately needed in the world today? I don't recall Jesus required his followers to put to death anyone who does not accept the faith for example.
You ask why it was necessary for me to become a Christian to meet people and go to places where I would never have gone. Obviously you don't know me as you didn't before I became a Christian so let me enlighten you. I grew up effectively as an only child (I have one sibling who she is almost 13 years younger than me) hence I was an essential selfish person, an attitude which persevered well into adulthood. I was never an evil person but looking after No.1 was my mantra. After becoming a Christian in my late 30's all that changed and most of my life since has been a compassionate concern for other people which is what Jesus would expect from each of us. Maybe for you that came naturally but not for me. I will not go into any more details here otherwise it could be interpreted as a “look at me aren't I a great person” narcissistic diatribe.
Look after yourself and try to keep an open mind. At the end of the day it isn't down to me to evangelise or judge you, it's your choice!
The facts are that:
1. The first five books of the Bible and which represent the Torah were supposedly written by Moses.
2. There is no evidence that Moses existed
3. There is no evidence that if he existed that he spoke to 'God'
4. There is no evidence of such dialogue being recorded.
The whole concept of Abrahamist religions are based on the supposed works of one mythical person and there is nothing resembling an audit trail of any description. However, catch people when they are young, indoctrinate them and they swallow it whole. And most believers have little idea how so-called Holy Books have been compiled, sifted, edited and changed through the centuries. And that's precisely why religions are subject to endless and deep schisms even under the Abrahamist umbrella.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
The facts are that:
1. The first five books of the Bible and which represent the Torah were supposedly written by Moses.
2. There is no evidence that Moses existed
3. There is no evidence that if he existed that he spoke to 'God'
4. There is no evidence of such dialogue being recorded.
The whole concept of Abrahamist religions are based on the supposed works of one mythical person and there is nothing resembling an audit trail of any description. However, catch people when they are young, indoctrinate them and they swallow it whole. And most believers have little idea how so-called Holy Books have been compiled, sifted, edited and changed through the centuries. And that's precisely why religions are subject to endless and deep schisms even under the Abrahamist umbrella.
Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.
Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lisvaneblue
Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.
Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.
I had asked a question about Moses several times in this thread and it went unanswered. As Moses is one of the most important pillars of the story in Abrahamist religions it is perfectly logical to seriously analyse things assigned to him and which adherents believe in. It seems to be the case of a possibly mythical person supposedly carrying God's word to the masses so I think the subject deserves more respect than referring to another possibly mythical person mentioned in the same tome.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
lisvaneblue
Golfer Blue's comments related to the book of John, in the New Testament. Your reply relates to Moses and I do not see the connection other than an implication that the Torah may be false so the rest of the bible is the same.
Thomas had the same problem as you 2000 years ago.
There is no point in any further discussion with those who believe (note: I use the word believe with a touch of irony here) that the Bible is a complete book of fiction because they cannot/will not accept it as a reference source. My faith is based on Jesus not on Moses and there is evidence other than that in the Bible that he existed. The standard response to that is ok, there may have been an historical Jesus but he was just a bloke, he didn't say most, if not all, the things he is supposed to have said, did not perform any miracles and certainly did not rise from the dead. Oh, and that I must have been brain washed as a child.
In reality by my late teens I had rejected Christianity because I believed science had all the answers (I studied the three sciences at A level and then a science degree). I became a Christian about 20 years later when I guess I finally realised that science does not have all the answers after all!
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
There is no point in any further discussion with those who believe (note: I use the word believe with a touch of irony here) that the Bible is a complete book of fiction because they cannot/will not accept it as a reference source. My faith is based on Jesus not on Moses and there is evidence other than that in the Bible that he existed. The standard response to that is ok, there may have been an historical Jesus but he was just a bloke, he didn't say most, if not all, the things he is supposed to have said, did not perform any miracles and certainly did not rise from the dead. Oh, and that I must have been brain washed as a child.
In reality by my late teens I had rejected Christianity because I believed science had all the answers (I studied the three sciences at A level and then a science degree). I became a Christian about 20 years later when I guess I finally realised that science does not have all the answers after all!
Perhaps science doesn't have all the answers but it might, given time, and if it doesn't find them that might be down to our limitations as a species.
Do you think Jesus rose from the dead? Do you believe the miracles are true? To be honest, this is the stuff that confounds me. I can understand the notion of God because it's an answer to the big questions but the Jesus story seems (to me) to be marketing for said notion.
In an earlier post you asked why would John (of gospel fame) fictionalise anything - people like fiction and fancy narratives, don't they? Put a bit of water walking and defeating death in and you've got yourself a best seller.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
Finally even if you are convinced that the whole thing is a complete cock and bull story, what is so wrong with the underlying sentiments of Jesus as recorded in the books of John and James, like love one another as I have loved you, love your neighbour as yourself, faith without works is dead etc? No-one can argue surely that these traits are desperately needed in the world today?
Yes, but many of these ideas were imported from the classical ethical tradition preceding Christianity. So it’s possible to try and live a good life following them without any real need to also include the supernatural.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Religion summed up for me.... Tyson Fury, God will give me the victory, Deontay Wilder, God will give me the victory......... Fury wins, God gave me the victory, Wilder loses, God was teaching me a lesson....... God loves boxing, doesn't seem to care for children with cancer.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Gofer Blue
There is no point in any further discussion with those who believe (note: I use the word believe with a touch of irony here) that the Bible is a complete book of fiction because they cannot/will not accept it as a reference source. My faith is based on Jesus not on Moses and there is evidence other than that in the Bible that he existed. The standard response to that is ok, there may have been an historical Jesus but he was just a bloke, he didn't say most, if not all, the things he is supposed to have said, did not perform any miracles and certainly did not rise from the dead. Oh, and that I must have been brain washed as a child.
In reality by my late teens I had rejected Christianity because I believed science had all the answers (I studied the three sciences at A level and then a science degree). I became a Christian about 20 years later when I guess I finally after all!
Regarding your last sentence: science means knowledge. No-one in their right mind thinks that we yet have perfect knowledge of all things. Our knowledge is built on trial and error along with evidence. On the other hand, ancient religions that have little or no evidence may explain the creation of the universe whereas people at the time didn't understand electricity, microbes or a million other things that we have subsequently learned about.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Taunton Blue Genie
I had asked a question about Moses several times in this thread and it went unanswered. As Moses is one of the most important pillars of the story in Abrahamist religions it is perfectly logical to seriously analyse things assigned to him and which adherents believe in. It seems to be the case of a possibly mythical person supposedly carrying God's word to the masses so I think the subject deserves more respect than referring to another possibly mythical person mentioned in the same tome.
Looks like no-one is going to provide any evidence of God's words passed onto Moses, including the book of Genesis and the talking snake.
Surely, the veracity of what are meant to be God's words represents the basis of all that followed in various Abrahamist holy books.
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bluebirdman Of Alcathays
Perhaps science doesn't have all the answers but it might, given time, and if it doesn't find them that might be down to our limitations as a species.
Do you think Jesus rose from the dead? Do you believe the miracles are true? To be honest, this is the stuff that confounds me. I can understand the notion of God because it's an answer to the big questions but the Jesus story seems (to me) to be marketing for said notion.
In an earlier post you asked why would John (of gospel fame) fictionalise anything - people like fiction and fancy narratives, don't they? Put a bit of water walking and defeating death in and you've got yourself a best seller.
Have you seriously looked into the evidence OUTSIDE the Bible re the bodily Resurrection of Christ?
Re: Latest British Social Survey finds 52% of the Country are non Religious
Quote:
Originally Posted by
truthpaste
Have you seriously looked into the evidence OUTSIDE the Bible re the bodily Resurrection of Christ?
Only my (admittedly layman's) understanding of biology. Perhaps he was unconscious/presumed dead after his crucifixion, and spluttered into life a couple of days later before succumbing to his injuries/ascending to heaven, but then he wouldn't be dead and therefore not rising from the dead, and that's not as enticing a tale.
I had a google though and have bookmarked a couple of articles to look at later but even in a cursory search one sees there are a number of theories and doubts about the resurrection story alone. I suspect it would just come down to wanting to believe, wanting a faith, and that's fine if that's what people are looking for for themselves, but all that does is return to my question of why seek a faith in the first place.