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I met an Irish artist/lecturer on a bus in Portugal last week and he was under the impression that people in the south of Ireland no longer look longingly at a united Ireland these days and that things have changed in that respect - and in my opinion it's probably true that many (if not most) people in Britain feel little affinity for the Province and that it is quite alien in many respects.
Are either of those views a fair assessment in general?
From my experience and talking to my fiends and family over the water whilst at times there’s a romantic image of a United Ireland the logical thinking is that the Republic is in a good place. They’ve had their problems over the years but it’s no longer the ultra conservative Catholic state of the likes De Valera espoused and a confident fairly successful nation. Logically the view from a lot is why should they take on a massive massive problem where half the population of the six counties don’t want to be thereQuote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
It’s a 300 year plus problem, simplistic idea but plantation policy in the 1600’s has a lot to answer for!!
Hundred years ago Belfast was the big industrial heartbeat of Ireland, now it’s stagnated and depopulated due to all the shite that’s gone on.
.Many people voted for this!
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">It would be hilarious if it were not so serious. <br><br>Essential viewing. Please share. <a href="https://twitter.com/hashtag/GetBrexitDone?src=hash&ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">#G etBrexitDone</a> <a href="https://t.co/zzwDJHiBVV">pic.twitter.com/zzwDJHiBVV</a></p>— Steve Baker MP (@SteveBakerHW) <a href="https://twitter.com/SteveBakerHW/status/1185995493165412352?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">October 20, 2019</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
Many people voted for £350m per week extra into the NHS too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wales-Bales
There we go two broken promises, or one, didnt the govemment pump the value into NHS though?Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
https://fullfact.org/health/nhs-engl...-million-more/
Well that would go someway to satisfying the promise if brexit was going to yield an overall short term economic dividend. It is almost universally accepted that it won't, so whilst a commitment to spend more on health is good news (how good, depends on where the additional spending is proposed to be sourced from...), all it proves is that remain could have driven an equally big red bus around promising a substantially higher net increase in funding for the NHS as they weren't proposing to crash the economy in exchange for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by life on mars
You realise when the government makes a spending pledge there is a good chance it is coming out of the pockets of working people? It isn't the kind of benevolence that your various posts suggest you think it is, or should be viewed as.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2
Bit more complicated than that, but have you never considered the great deals the Irish would get from US trade ?
There's a huge Irish lobby in the USA and the island of Ireland as a whole would get a double portion of the benefits on either side of the border.
Of course, the Irish themselves tried to get free from Europe and voted to leave but just like here they had their own traitors ,and it was those traitors who prevailed - at least for the time being. I think they'll be the next to leave one way or another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieBird
Bit more complicated than that. They had a vote on the Lisbon treaty, they didn’t like it. They got what they wanted and passed it/
The Republic Of Ireland has enjoyed being part of the EU as all polls show a very high desire to remain so I think ‘Irexit’ despite what you say won’t be happening any time soon or after that.
Those polls are probably fake though.Quote:
Originally Posted by CardiffIrish2
Only as long as they show support for the EU.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Cartman
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/poli...eals-1.3488112
Well, the Irish have a tendency to resent Foriegn involvement in the country after a while you know.
Well the way Johnson is going with his Irish Sea border and all that goes with it we may see the end of 'Foreign involvement' in the 6 counties sooner rather than later - and a united Ireland within the EU. The Irish seem to enjoy their pooled sovereignty through the institutions of the EU and the ability of a small country on the edge of the continent to influence the direction of a union of 27 states.Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieBird
You know.
You're an awful clever fellah with your cartoons and opinions about Ireland, you know
Although according to the BBC it will create thousands of civil service jobs in Northern Ireland which will be financed by compulsory redundancies across every department in the U.K and a ' root and branch ' revue of civil service pensions. It's a pity that we've got to employ more pencil necked clerks and time wasters in Ireland, but the good side is that we can reduce their numbers on the mainland.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
That'll be good for enterprise and there'll be an overall saving providing the pension reductions go ahead.
“I looked him in the eye and he said”
https://twitter.com/dawnhfoster/stat...893829636?s=21
:hehe:
:hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Andy
Was that meant to be a Boris Johnson impression?:hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by Auntie Andy
Oh no, dont get the ex civil servants riled up, they add so much value and debate, we'd be lost without them .Quote:
Originally Posted by RonnieBird
They voted leave, not half in, half out, they voted no deal leave.
Throughout the campaign, the leave groups from Faridge downwards talked about Norway, Canada ++, etc - what kind of deal we would have with the EU when we left. So this suggestion that people voted no deal is preposterous, just outright wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
But let's park that.
Say we do have a no deal brexit. What happens in the future? Will there never be an arrangement with the EU? WTO forever?
I see the EU have allowed an extension until 31 January - seems they won't agree to any renegotiation of the Withdrawal agreement as well.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-50205603
Feeling of Deja Vu there.Quote:
Originally Posted by the other bob wilson
They said they wouldn't renegotiate when they granted the October 31st as well
Norway, Canada ++ etc, the public did not vote for any of those abstract things, none of them things was on the ballot paper, the ballot paper said ''Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union or leave the European Union?, all the leave voters I know, wanted out, plain and simple just like the question asked, none of them wanted out with a deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
A very strange argument to make - this and that weren't on the ballot paper, but my one was what people really wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
The simple truth, which you can't escape, is that the things I mentioned (and more) were used as arguments for Leave, while no deal was not.
Out of the European Union?Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
What people really wanted at the time was out with no deal, most ordinary people are not particularly interested in politics and what some politician they may or may not have heard of saying something on some late night politics show, they just wanted out.Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
Absolute rubbish, I'm afraid.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
"some politician they may or may not have heard of" - like I said, it was the leave campaigns from Nigel downwards.
"What people really wanted at the time was out with no deal" - no, the discussions were about soft or hard brexit (hard being a deal but outside of the single market).
Historic Google searches show that 'no deal' was not part of the discussion.
<blockquote class="twitter-tweet"><p lang="en" dir="ltr">Google searches for "no deal Brexit" have surged as the UK government becomes more vocal about contingency planning over recent days.<a href="https://t.co/Ohh9cN60Tq">https://t.co/Ohh9cN60Tq</a> <a href="https://t.co/tePUdcP2Qz">pic.twitter.com/tePUdcP2Qz</a></p>— ING Economics (@ING_Economics) <a href="https://twitter.com/ING_Economics/status/1023115873048055808?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw">July 28, 2018</a></blockquote> <script async src="https://platform.twitter.com/widgets.js" charset="utf-8"></script>
You are talking rubbish lardy, I don't make things up, people I know voted out as in OUT, I doubt if any of them have ever heard of Canada this and Norway that, I couldn't even tell you what Canada this and Norway that is myself [I would have to look it up].
What will you and your mates do if we leave with a deal? I mean, that's not what you all voted for, is it?Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
My mates voted remain, people I know voted leave, people will carry on as normal i would guess, if their circumstances change then they will have to deal with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heisenberg
I have no dog in this Brexit debate, personally i would say leaving with a deal is the worst outcome, remain and things stay the same, leave with no deal and the UK breaks up and then perhaps one day down the track we can get an independent Wales.
All the leave voters I spoke to wanted the Norway deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
You think that's irrelevant and changes nothing, don't you? You'd be correct.
What's not rubbish is that no deal was barely discussed in the campaigns. The evidence is still there; the soundbites and interviews, the articles, the web searches, it all confirms it.
It's certainly true that there's a large number of people who want no deal now. Chances are that Farridge and his backers wanted no deal along, but if they did they kept it quiet because leave would not have won if that had been the message.
In fact, the way that they have maneuvered to make it seem that's what people always wanted (The Will Of The People) is a mixture of impressive and scary.
...But you've argued incessantly that these people that you know voted to leave without a deal and now you think that they would just carry on as normal if we leave with a deal? Seems odd to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
Do all of your points end up being about wanting an independent Wales? It wold be good to know for future reference.
But how many people knew what leaving with or without out a deal really meant? I can't recall many people discussing the detail of the effects of tariffs, the Northern Ireland problem or anything else about the economic ramifications of leaving. You only have to see the vox-pop street interviews on TV to know that there was (and still is) hardly any real understanding of the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
Time for another posting of the poll from the summer of 2016 which shows that only 3 or 4 per cent of Leave voters wanted the equivalent of a no deal Brexit methinks.
''All the leave voters I spoke to wanted the Norway deal'', you say...……...crickey, how many vote leavers do you know ?, what is the Norway deal ?, are there variations of the Norway deal like Norway minus and Norway plus ?Quote:
Originally Posted by lardy
You are talking Brexit are you ? or are these people you know fans of the 1905 Norway deal ? when they broke away from the United Kingdom and gained Independence [the Sweden - Norway United Kingdom not our one, lol].
How do you think they would carry on ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Heisenberg
Blimey, you appear to have typed all that without irony. You know I was parodying what you've been saying, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
Exactly Taunton Blue Genie, yet all the leavers lardy knows seemingly knew exactly what the effects would be, but they still wanted to leave with something known as the Norway deal - very impressive politicking, all the leavers voters i know, knew jack sh*t about any possible ramifications and had little understanding of the subject.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
I had a couple of pet lemmings who were a bit like your friends...often wonder what happened to them?Quote:
Originally Posted by trampie09
As far as your position is concerned what do you mean by no deal? Is it chuck the Withdrawal Agreement in the bin and break all ties with the EU for ever and a day? Trade on WTO terms, opt out of Open Sky agreements, security and policing, medicinal regulation etc?
If it is all of these then fair enough. If it is not and you want some kind of working relationship with the EU in the future after the "benefits" of no deal are considered by some to be insufficient. You and your mates could be horrified that for the next few years of our existence (whilst we negotiate super deals with the rest of the world) then we will concurrently going back to the EU from our island redoubt seeking............well a deal!
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyril evans awaydays
It's just leaving. After that we do or don't sort out deals with Europe. A question of nationalism you see.
There's no point in you fretting about what deals they do or don't cut, because they certainly will not consult you.
Politicians will do what suits them best in terms of personal gain, because they're the worst sort of criminals, and all their victims - the electorate- get to decide is the limits we impose on their crookery.
In this case we insist that they keep it in house and don't forge money making links with foreign politicians or companies.
This fortune telling about the effects of future events is nothing more than the apparently never ending Project Fear, which is the only argument they have, and which you repeat because you think it makes you look clever to be in agreement with these "clever" people.
They're only laughing at you though Cyril, and they won't reward you if they win.