That's a very ignorant view of the situation. It's far more complex than that and there are many Israeli citizens, as I've mentioned above, who do not see the conflict in such polarised terms.
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Official then. Very small hope of progress after 2023 but very small as for reasons already stated.Quote:
On Sunday, Israel’s parliament, the Knesset, voted on a new government that ended the 12-year rule of Benjamin Netanyahu, the longest-serving prime minister in Israeli history, The Guardian reports. The new government will be sworn in on Sunday after the coalition won a confidence vote. Naftali Bennett, the leader of the right-wing Yamina Party, will assume the position of prime minister until August 2023, after which Yair Lapid, a centrist opposition leader, would take over until 2025. The New York Times reports. Netanyahu faces corruption charges, and Israel has held four elections since 2019, according to The Associated Press
Same Shit , Different Day
It will never end
God Bless Secularism
There are some radicals in this new coalition, but it's a lot more representative than the stitch ups that benji used to cobble together. The settlement expanders also can't hide in the background now. Under Netanyahu (especially in trumps term) they could push their agenda and gain big concessions at coalition forming time, then retreat into the shadows and watch someone else do their dirty work.
Bennett, Lieberman and Abbas aren't my cup of tea, but they are pragmatists and they will negotiate. Yair Lapid has a tough job to keep it all on track. Hopefully Bennett doesn't try to tear the coalition apart towards the end of his 2 years as Pm.
Of course, thank f*ck that Israel is well defended. Because let's be honest, if this Israel coalition can work constructively with an Arab party. Hamas and Islamic jihad will do whatever they can to mess it up via terrorism. If at any stage it looks like the Israeli government want to start exploring another peace strategy, then hamas and IJ will probably attempt to start another suicide bombing campaign.
The coalition only has opposition to Netanyahu to hold it together, and has stated already that it will avoid Palestine-Israel conflict issues (though how is a question as they are being played out on the streets of Israeli towns and Jerusalem, as well as the West Bank and Gaza) and focus on basic budget and state service issues. It is totally contradictory and unstable - spanning the centre left to the far right of the Knesset. Unless it morphs quickly into something else - and unless Bennett abandons his expansionist and racist ideology - it must surely collapse fairly soon. It might last long enough for Netanyahu to face the courts again and permanently lose his grip on power - but I doubt much more.
Interesting that you see the main threat to peace in this situation as Hamas - not daily land theft, murder (by occupation forces and/or settlers - who seem to work hand in glove), detention without trial for hundreds of Palestinian adults and children, destruction of homes, crops and water supplies, apartheid state ideology and policies, elimination by Israel of any territorial basis for a future 2 state solution (still the 'answer' for most of the world), attacks on people wanting to pray at the Al Aqsa mosque, continuing blockade of Gaza (with Egypt) and the aftermath of a 'mowing the grass' campaign to destroy homes, hospitals, schools, the only Covid vaccination centre and much else in Gaza - alongside some Hamas military targets.
Hamas is an authoritarian, often brutal and contradictory organisation - but it was formed in response to Israeli aggression against Palestinians and is democratically elected. It is certainly part of the problem - and may have committed war crimes with its rocket attacks on civilian targets - but any provocations or crimes that come from Hamas are dwarfed by those of Israel. David v Goliath and David is a Palestinian!
What is also of interest when people point out the disproportional element of it, Hamas and Islamic jihad do not act alone they are backed by very big powerful people and states, in fact if you consider the countries surrounding Israel who want their destruction or been to war with them , we may find that is disproportional.
Israel is a nuclear power (shouldn't be - but is) and has the 16th or 17th most powerful armed forces in the world, and a much higher military budget than many of the other world powers in the top 20. The only regional power that has anything like an equivalent force is Iran. Iran certainly gets some arms into Gaza - but not much. Against that the USA acts as a military guarantor for Israel and along with the EU, UK, Australia, Canada etc provides near full diplomatic cover and deflects all attempts to hold Israel accountable for its actions in the UN or its agencies. None of that - or the other infrastructure of financial, military, diplomatic and propaganda support - applies to the other main powers in the region.
But all that is just a smokescreen thrown up by apologists.
This is not a war of equal protagonists - it is the full might of the Israeli state and its settler vigilantes in daily conflict with civilians, sometimes (if rarely) Palestinian police in the West Bank, stone throwing protestors (hundreds shot dead by IOF snipers) and the military wing of Hamas. Hamas is a brutal, fundamentalist and often oppressive organisation - but it is incapable of 'competing' in any way with the Israeli military. To argue that Israel is on the wrong side of the regional balance of power is to ignore the evidence of death and destruction over the past 70 odd years - a sick league table that demonstrates the imbalance of resources (political and material) and the worth shown by the media and major powers for different lives.
(How long before this thread is moved out of sight?)
One thing I'm interested in is what the various sides see as an acceptable endpoint.
yes there there are some in Hamas who want the Israeli's to leave the region and return it to a Palestinian state.
Clearly that is not at all practical or even possible.
Other Palestinians (probably the majority) just want to live in viable Palestinian country free from oppression from Israel and its settlers. This is increasingly difficult to see how this could happen, as the remaining pockets of Palestinian land aren't conducive to a functioning economy, even without the economic restrictions.
On the Israeli side there are extremists who want all the land for Israel and for the Palestinians to go away. And again there are the vast majority who just want to get on with their lives in peace.
The two solutions people regularly talk about are the 1 and 2 state solutions.
A 1 state solution whereby all the land is absorbed into Israel has some advantages, as the Palestinian people would be able to participate in an advanced rich country. However, there would be much fear and mistrust of each other on both sides, which would make it very difficult to sell this idea. Also in this larger Israel, the Muslim population would outnumber the Jewish population, and is increasing much more rapidly - so this new country would not be a Jewish nation, or it would have to exist with Arabs as second class citizens unable to vote - OR much of the Arab population would have to be expelled to other countries.
Clearly many Israeli's would never want Israel not to be a Jewish nation, but the other possibilities are abominable.
The 2 state solution is what most Palestinians would prefer, but in order for it to be viable I think Israel would need to scale back significantly its expansions and allow a viable state to develop. I can't see any appetite from Israel to allow that to happen.
Where we are today is in a weird half way house, whereby Israel is expanding its borders and making new settlements, making either solution less feasible.
It seems to me that Israel is benefitting a lot more from maintaining the status quo - as they can expand and still have a Jewish nation, but it surely isn't a situation that can go on indefinitely
You say Israel is benefitting by expanding it's boarders, yet their current boarders are a small fraction of the original land they were given >> Biblical BORDERS OF ISRAEL
Given that Israel are well aware of this, they have shown remarkable restraint!
How would we like it if England were awarded every county of Wales except Cardiff, Newport & the Vale of Glamorgan?
My neighbours are a family from Palestine. They are by some distance the most friendly neighbours we have. Much more open, talkative and friendly than the local people in my street (Vitoria-Gasteiz, Euskal Herria).
The couple, who have three lovely kids, are studying their PHD here. They are researching the effects of sports in promoting social mobility and welfare. Souleman, the husband has told us some incredible stories of the treatment they have received from the Israelis, truly harrowing and heartbreaking.
I don't know what historical issues the Israelis have with the people of the occupied territories, but the fact perfectly well adjusted and decent people have to go through some of the stuff these people have gone through is just awful.
What I found amazing, aside from the experiences they have had of seeing friends being shot in front of them, is that fact that even within the Palestinian territories, the locals have to go through numerous checkpoints to go from one city to another ....again , this is within Palestine, without even setting foot in Israeli occupied territories. The israeli troops are incredibly zealous and trigger-happy on top of this, so people just don't bother leaving their cities.
He also explained to me how the Israelis use the religious elements as an excuse to continue their actions, but that it actually has very little to do with the situation.....
They are moving back to Palestine in October after three years here in the Basque Country. Their friends think they are mad and that they should stay in Europe, but they are determined to go back and work in education, in order to help their country progress. Proper admirable attitude, fair play.
It would also be honest to point out that In Israel, Muslims can freely run businesses and live there with their families, something I've personally witnessed when I've visited Israel. On the other hand, a Jew found anywhere within the borders of Palenstine is in immediate and constant danger, and he/ she would have to be insane to open a business there.
Read the short article in the link (above)
Maybe it's just me, but I can't imagine any justification for the types of things this guy has told me.
The guy is pretty upfront about stuff. He told me that Israeli troops entered his city in armoured tanks looking for "a baddie" and that when kids started throwing stones at them , they returned with live rounds. He said " My friend and me ran and then I felt liquid on my face and when I looked my friend had been shot in the head "....he pointed at his forehead and had tears in his eyes.
He also told me that he once tried to go from his city to visit his wife in another Palestinian town in the West Bank and that a journey that should take half an hour takes hours due to check-point controls. ON one of these occasions a soldier spoke to the guy in Hebrew and he responded in English saying that he didn't understand Hebrew. The soldier told him that he is in Israel and should speak Hebrew. My neighbour responded telling him that he is in Palestine and should therefore speak Arabic. He was then made to get out of the car and sit in ,what he described, as a pit in the ground until morning.
Again, this guy is studying a PHD in a foreign country....he not some scrote I bumped into in a bar. Proper nice, friendly people. I asked the guy once for a recipe for Falafel....he said "wait a sec, I've got some in the freezer, I'll bring some over to you" ....it's no polygraph test, but he sure seems like a decent and honest bloke to me.
If I spoke to an Israeli , is there anything at all that he could say that would justify the things I've mentioned above ?
For me there isn't.
I think you are referring to "The 48" (or "48 Palestinians") as my friend refers to them. People who remained after the occupation . From what he has told me, it's a nightmare to get into Israel if not.
Also , it's the Israelis that prohibit jews from entering Palestine.
Even then it states that the lands should belong to "the descendents" of Abraham, which I think applies just as much to Moslems as it does to Jewish people.
Ignoring the slightly problematic point that there is no god and he/she never gave the land to anyone in the first place.
That is the beginning and end of Truthpaste's contribution.
God Almighty.... Good Book.... Chosen People.... The ramblings of a bronze age shaman (tweaked and modified through word of mouth and finally written down centuries later) becomes the sole and unarguable justification for decades of persecution and ethnic cleansing. And because the Israeli state has taken it's time about driving Palestinians out of the territory described in the Old Testament, they are somehow to be praised for restraint!
That may not have been the only strand of historic Zionism, but it is the dominant one today. It also explains why there are so many more Christian Zionists about than Jewish Zionists - including tens of millions of evangelicals in North America (like Mike Pence and Mike Pompeo in the Trump government). But some of the most courageous anti-Zionists are Jewish themselves, and some of the most effective campaigners for Palestinian human rights are Jewish people living in Israel.
It is becoming ever more difficult to see how a two state 'solution' can be introduced after the creeping colonisation and bantuisation of the occupied territories - no Palestinian state is viable now. A one state solution can only be an ethno-religious apartheid state of the sort Netanyahu and Bennett are moving towards, or a democratic state of citizens with equal rights - which is anathema to Zionists.
And so you demonstrate how well you did.
Also 'following the science' (or trying to baffle others with it) as any government will tell you isn't as clear as you might wish given the evidence of 2020/21.
You like Jon are without reason for being or any idea where you originated from, yet you think you can resolve a 4000 year old problem in the Middle East.
Very amusing.
Well let's see, what about the most atheistic company in Europe, the BBC. They spent £1.5M in producing "SON OF GOD" in 2001 and naturally had a willing atheist at hand to host it:-
"Jeremy Bowen, a former Middle East correspondent for BBC News, was chosen to present the programme for its UK broadcast. Despite not being religious, he was drawn to the programme for its use of scientific and historical information. As well as presenting, Bowen also narrated and scripted large portions of the series. He stated that he brought a degree of scepticism to the show: before the first episode aired, he admitted that he did not think that you could "corroborate anything that was in the Gospels".
The first episode of Son of God, "The Real Man", documents Jesus's life up to his temptation, and details the historical evidence for his existence. Bowen visits Jerusalem, where he calls Jesus's death "one of the best attested facts in ancient history".[e 1] He cites the Romano-Jewish historian Josephus as one of 80 sources that confirms that Jesus existed and that describes him as "a wise man who did surprising feats, ... won over followers from among Jews and Greeks, ... was accused by the Jewish leaders, [and] was condemned to be crucified by Pilate"
The full article can be found HERE
Seems like not even the BBC can shout for your team on this one? :frown:
The BBC broadasts 'Songs of Praise', 'Prayer for The Day', 'Sunday Worship', 'Act of Worship', 'Daily Service', 'Heaven and Earth' and many other religious programmes besides the one you went on to comment on - all of which makes your comment above rather silly.