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While you are deliberating on the facts that would cause you to believe that Christ died and rose from the dead, I have started a new discussion re your question to allow this one to stay within a mile of the OP!Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
Thanks for the link. Very interesting and robust response from Strobel.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthpaste
I have nothing to deliberate. I have never mentioned the claim on here either way. However, not surprisingly, I don't believe it happened but anyone who applies logic can't deny that some things definitely didn't happen. Similarly, I can't disprove that any claims that a goblin was in my garden last night or that I was herdsman in Bhutan in my last life. If convincing evidence supported any of those possibilities I would look into it - but your so-called evidence is nothing of the sort and is very often intellectually extremely weak. You are welcome to forget my take on things and concentrate on the billions of other people who don't believe the stories you do (including some churches local to me, whose preachers do not preach the Garden of Eden as being literal). Oh yeah, try the Jewish lobby before you move on to the Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists et al.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthpaste
Interesting - and it's fully acceptable to read refutations of anything, of course. Fair is fair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
My own comment about Strobel concerned the following quote which is bemusing to the majority of the population of the world who are not fundamental Christians:
“…I had a vested interest in the non-existence of God because I was living a rather immoral lifestyle and did not want to be held accountable for my behavior. To me, atheism opened up a world of hedonism that I knew wouldn’t be acceptable to God if he existed.”
The thought that we can have a licence to be immoral and hedonistic if we don't believe in the Christian god is rather a perverse notion for most people who can apply logic and empathy for one's fellow man. And on the other hand let's not forget that your god instructed the killings of people who didn't listen to priests, homosexuals, entire towns where some non-believers may have convinced some people to believe in a different god, non-virgins outside wedlock, people cursing their parents, non-believers and a lot else, including innocent women, children and babies.
I can appreciate your concern about this (your text highlighted in blue above), as the implication is that being an atheist leads to a hedonistic lifestyle. Whether we like it or not, that is Strobel's own stated position. I can identify to some extent with his situation. I come from a family whose ancestors were firmly rooted in Nonconformism (Methodism) from way back (late 1700's – the John Wesley era). My father, my grandfather and my great-grandfather were all strict teetotallers (they would never even enter a pub for example), non-smokers, and anti-gambling. My father was a teenager during the miners' strike and the Great Depression in the 1920's (his father was a miner) and he witnessed the effect of drunkenness on poor families first hand. So I suppose each person's definition of a hedonistic lifestyle would be quite different, depending on their upbringing. My father and grandfather would probably have been horrified when I took up drinking and smoking when I was at university – for them that would be a hedonistic lifestyle! When I became a Christian I gave up drinking and smoking, mainly because I did not want to be a bad example to my two lads later on (they were only about 2 – 3 years old at the time). Hence they could never say to me “it's OK for you drink/smoke but you won't allow me to” i.e. do as I say, not do as I do!Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
Re: books on evolution. The most recent books on evolution that I have read are all the classic Dawkins's publications: The Blind Watchmaker, The Selfish Gene and the God Delusion. I admit these are now quite old but still form the basic argument for the evolutionary process I think? I would have happily lapped up all this stuff during my A level days, when DNA and the famous Stanley Miller experiment seemed to be the answer to everything, and I soon gave up the notion of a creator God. However later on I came to realise that whilst the idea of a primitive life form evolving over millennia into the complex life forms we see today is an enticing one, and Dawkins's ingenious/persuasive theory seems to fit the bill, it has a fundamental and fatal flaw; and that is even the simplest imaginable organism such as a bacterial cell is HUGELY complicated and could not possibly have arisen by chance from a primordial soup.
As much as I have rejected Dawkins's theory I have never attempted to dig up any dirt on him or try to denigrate his character as has been done by some to Strobel. He is clearly a brilliant intellectual – it's just a pity in a way that he has become such an aggressive atheist, which I believe has even caused some embarrassment to his fellow atheists.
I've just seen that TP has started a thread an evolution - fair enough I suppose as this is supposedly a thread about Welsby! If you (TBG) intend to reply to my reply, maybe switch to the latest thread?
I'lll leave it here re: Strobel, Gofer. I found Strobel's way of thinking regarding morality as very perverse and you stated that you apprciated why I effectively made the original comments on that score.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
And I'll knock it on the head regarding your comment about complex life being unable to develop from primitive beginnings too. That viewpoint doesn't actually have any logical basis and bemusing when you believe in talking animals etc.
I'll sign off here.
On this issue I would also run for the hills in your position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
This cannot be solved > "complex life being unable to develop from primitive beginnings".........hence 'evilution' is exposed for what it is, one of the biggest global lies of recent history.
Tetchy today! Trouble in the cult?Quote:
Originally Posted by truthpaste
Loads of trouble in the evolution cult, correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Even Jesus said about liars - "You brood of vipers!" (Matthew 12:34) when highlighting deceit.
So yes I hate deception with a passion.
Clearly not.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthpaste
Rough day on Queen street….Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
I'm not the yelling type, more the discussion sort; and you'd be very surprised how many people walk up and want to have a serious chat.Quote:
Originally Posted by goats
OK, you want to duck out at this point, fair enough. Please note for the record though I didn't say that! Read again what I wrote. I said I believe that it is impossible for what we tend to think of as a "simple" single-celled organism such as a bacterium (a prokaryote) to arise from a soup of chemicals such as amino acids and mineerals, or even more so a eukaryote, such as a “simple” single-celled algae!Quote:
Originally Posted by Taunton Blue Genie
These are very complicated biological machines with umpteen processes occuring simultaneously - check out kinesins and tell me these arose by chance. It takes more faith to believe that than to believe in a creator.
It’s good that people will approach the unhinged and deluded in town to check they are ok….:xmasthumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by truthpaste
I always did wonder where Adam and Eve came from? God just dropped them off one day when passing wasn’t it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
Apologies if I misunderstood or misrepresented your point but I'll leave it there anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gofer Blue
This may get your goat - "Scientists reveal all the evidence that Adam & Eve really did exist"Quote:
Originally Posted by goats
They move a little closer as time goes by :xmasthumbup:
Interesting piece. You should read it!Quote:
Originally Posted by truthpaste
It rubbishes the idea that humanity began with two people: Adam and Eve.
It makes clear that modern humans' first ancestors were part of a wider evolved population pool of homo sapiens which is quite different from tracing a survivor lineage back to a single woman.
It plays around with 'spot the Eden' but makes clear this is not 'the cradle of humanity' but is the place where Neolithic farming first began - which fits with most other scholarship in paleoanthropology for well over 50 years. The 'birthplace of civilisation' is not the birthplace of humanity!
It also warns people with a literal belief in all the words of the Bible, that this story of human origin (genetic and cultural) is mainly incompatible with Biblical fundamentalism:
"However, making the Bible fit with modern science requires throwing out a lot of the traditional story.
"That could mean saying goodbye to the notion that God created Adam and Eve, or even questioning whether our biblical ancestors were Homo Sapiens."
Not enough there on Neanderthals or Homo Erectus, though. They really drive a cart and horses through the creation myths!
Wrong thread. There's a separate one for evolution. :tumbleweed:
My gosh, the bible is nonsense, well I never……Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Wake up and smell the coffee occasionally!Quote:
Originally Posted by goats
When you read articles or scientific papers that include phrases like "that could mean...." or "scientists think that..." then have the wherewithall to realise that they are uncertain and don't really know. You don't actually need to get all gooey eyed and jump to the desired end of 'there you go, I can park the Bible back into my grandads archive box'.
“The best data we have are exactly what I would have predicted had I nothing to go on but the five books of Moses, the Psalms, the Bible as a whole, in that the universe appears to have order and purpose.” -
Arno Penzias, American physicist and Nobel Laureate for the discovery of the cosmic background radiation which substantiated Big Bang theory.
“In the last few years astronomy has come together so that we’re now able to tell a coherent story
[of how the universe began] …this story does not contradict God, but instead enlarges [the idea of] God.”
Joel Primack, Fellow of the American Physical Society, Professor of Physics at the University of California, Santa Cruz. He studies dark matter, particle astrophysics, cosmology and quantum field theory.
Just because a Christian says I know that God exists, doesn't mean to say they're right either.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthpaste
So, where does the firmament fit into all of this? Have scientists detected it?Quote:
Originally Posted by truthpaste
"Arno Penzias, American physicist and Nobel Laureate for the discovery of the cosmic background radiation which substantiated Big Bang theory."
How does the Big Bang theory fit with Genesis? Arno Penzias is no longer around to explain.
These attempts to reconcile faith with reason are so contrived it is painful.
It is either one or the other, although it is clearly possible for some people to compartmentalise and maintain a cultural attachment to their childhood indoctrination whilst doing some serious work in the real world. But faith and reason remain irreconcilable.
The issue isn't faith, because you also have faith, in a selection of scientists that have given you a pathway to dismiss God's Account.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
Like so many others, you don't wish to examine that 'pathway' or answer questions on it (like Christians are asked to do) because it is 'solid state' and you don't wish to remove the 'sticker' which says 'no need to examine the contents, you can trust us'.
So we are talking verified evidence here, not faith, got it now??
You wish. But no you have not talked 'verified evidence' once. You have tied yourself in constant knots with contradictions, circular arguments and pseudo science and come back to asserting the creation myths of your fantasy world.Quote:
Originally Posted by truthpaste
And you have swerved my question about the Big Bang and Genesis. Shame - that was one big laugh I was looking forward to.
Yes, the things that really matter are simply entertainment to you. Or so you think.Quote:
Originally Posted by jon1959
I'll get back to you re the big bang, so keep your popcorn dry.
Can you just bullet point the verified evidence for me, I must have missed it amongst the waffle? Just stick to facts not quotes from Christian scientists please…..:thumbup:Quote:
Originally Posted by truthpaste
God has definitely been busy……
Just how big is the universe? It takes our Sun 250 million years to orbit the Milky Way.
Ultimately, the Milky Way is about 100,000 light-years across and 1,000 light-years thick. Our solar system is located about 26,000 light-years away from the center of the galaxy.
If that's not impressive enough, our star is just 1 of the 200 billion stars in the Milky Way. As such, scientists estimate that there could be as many as 3.2 trillion planets in our galaxy.
And keep in mind, these are just the numbers for our own tiny galaxy. According to NASA, there are about 2 trillion galaxies in the observable universe.
Learn more: https://science.nasa.gov/universe/ex...-big-is-space/
We are not alone
Let's call a spade a spade shall we. At the end of the day, let's be honest and face it, both Christians and atheists actually have “a faith” as neither can PROVE that God exists or doesn't exist (yes I know, the burden of proof falls to Christians etc.....I await the inevitable scornful remarks from the atheist position!). It's all about the weight of evidence one way or the other so check it out for yourself and see if it fits the “beyond reasonable doubt” criteria which would apply in a court of law to discern a guilty or not-guilty verdict. I would like to think that none of us, if called to jury service, would decide the fate of the accused before listening to all the evidence. (Think “12 Angry Men”!!).
Could this be the end for this thread…:shrug:
You wish :hehe:Quote:
Originally Posted by goats
What do you base that last statement on?Quote:
Originally Posted by goats
After all Canada is about 41 times bigger than United Kingdom but has around 20 million less people?