Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamesWales
The answer - tragically for the people of Gaza - is probably when Hamas are removed from power.
I don't think it is about Hamas any more (if it ever was) for Israel or Israel's backers. Hamas was 'the enemy' in October 2023 but has been massively reduced as a fighting force, even if most of its experienced cadres have been replaced by unarmed teenagers to keep the numbers up. Hamas is a shell of its former self. Israel (and the USA) have recently started to paint a picture of Hamas as rebuilt and back to the numbers and 'threat' of 2023 - but that is pure propaganda to try to justify the current scale of killing.
Many people in Israel don't believe the continuing destruction of Gaza and its people is about defeating Hamas. Many (latest polls suggest a majority) don't think a complete military victory is possible; a large minority think the war is continuing because Netanyahu needs a forever war to stay out of gaol; the language of the political and military leadership in Israel has become more and more explicitly about ethnic cleansing and annexation to achieve Greater Israel 'from the river to the sea', and the spectre of a gutted Hamas is a convenient cover for that political and ideological objective.
The countries backing Israel's war on Palestine appear happy to go along with that, and keep the arms and money flowing, and keep playing the 'get out of gaol free' card on behalf of Israel in international forums (from the UN General Assembly to the International Court of Justice). With the exception of Trump's USA most have started to push the Two State Solution mantra (as Biden did briefly last year). Trump doesn't bother. It is now a fiction anyway - there is no practical way of creating a Palestinian state alongside Israel because the facts on the ground (created over the past 30 years) make that an impossibility - even on a Bantustan model. The call for a Two State Solution is just noise to cover continuing complicity in Israel's drive to create a single Jewish supremacist (apartheid) state in the whole of Israel/Palestine, and possibly beyond (southern Lebanon, Syria beyond the Golan and - for Ben-Gvir and Smotrich - into Jordan and the Sinai).
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
I don't think it is about Hamas any more (if it ever was) for Israel or Israel's backers. Hamas was 'the enemy' in October 2023 but has been massively reduced as a fighting force, even if most of its experienced cadres have been replaced by unarmed teenagers to keep the numbers up. Hamas is a shell of its former self. Israel (and the USA) have recently started to paint a picture of Hamas as rebuilt and back to the numbers and 'threat' of 2023 - but that is pure propaganda to try to justify the current scale of killing.
Many people in Israel don't believe the continuing destruction of Gaza and its people is about defeating Hamas. Many (latest polls suggest a majority) don't think a complete military victory is possible; a large minority think the war is continuing because Netanyahu needs a forever war to stay out of gaol; the language of the political and military leadership in Israel has become more and more explicitly about ethnic cleansing and annexation to achieve Greater Israel 'from the river to the sea', and the spectre of a gutted Hamas is a convenient cover for that political and ideological objective.
The countries backing Israel's war on Palestine appear happy to go along with that, and keep the arms and money flowing, and keep playing the 'get out of gaol free' card on behalf of Israel in international forums (from the UN General Assembly to the International Court of Justice). With the exception of Trump's USA most have started to push the Two State Solution mantra (as Biden did briefly last year). Trump doesn't bother. It is now a fiction anyway - there is no practical way of creating a Palestinian state alongside Israel because the facts on the ground (created over the past 30 years) make that an impossibility - even on a Bantustan model. The call for a Two State Solution is just noise to cover continuing complicity in Israel's drive to create a single Jewish supremacist (apartheid) state in the whole of Israel/Palestine, and possibly beyond (southern Lebanon, Syria beyond the Golan and - for Ben-Gvir and Smotrich - into Jordan and the Sinai).
The whole gory charade was really only ever about Lebensraum.
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
If that is your answer to the question: "How long will the world tolerate this?'" I seriously doubt that is right. Most of the world does not tolerate it - but is powerless to stop it; as in the UN, the aid agencies, or any of the other people or organisations who have become victims alongside the Palestinians.
For the USA, Germany and much of the global north Israel/Palestine continues to be the tinderbox where their concerns are dominated by geo-political considerations (Israel as the US client in the region that projects US and other imperialist interests), by the potential for major gas, oil and rare earth resources to be exploited by 'western' companies, as a place where the international arms trade can continue to rack up super profits, by simple anti-Arab racism and in the case of Germany and Austria guilt about the Holocaust leading to a constitutional blank cheque for Israel and systematic gagging of Israel critics, a group of countries and political leaders who are completely anti semitic (like Viktor Orban in Hungary and the white supremacist right) who admire Israel for its overt and ruthless contempt for brown people and international law, and finally an entrenched Christian Zionist lobby that is in senior posts in the Trump administration that echoes Truthpaste: that is cheerleading ethnic cleansing and (not Truthpaste) genocide.
Yes, just literally, I don't think it ends until that happens, and I don't dispute some of what is also said about Israel's illegitimate general claims on the land that they (or some of them more accurately) see as theirs, but I think Hamas, (who are a murderous bunch of antisemitic fanatics let's not forget) being in power gives them a reason to finish the war through to what they see as it's conclusion.
And that sadly is often the way. Wars end when an enemy surrenders or is entirely defeated. Hamas won't surrender and indeed hide amongst their own people, and so it goes on and on. And the people can't escape as neighbours won't have them.
So yeah in a literal sense, I don't see it ending until that happens. It's why personally I think a lot of the demonstrations have been wrong to not focus equally on Hamas in all this, but I don't say that as an invite to be controversial, I just think protesting at Israel is not going to end the suffering earlier tbh.
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Israel has finally managed to alienate the Board of Deputies - a consistent and uncritical cheerleader for apartheid in Israel and ethnic cleansing in Palestine, if a bit squeamish about genocide.
They say they can no longer remain silent, although they have been very vocal in support of Israel and against Palestinian right advocates up to now.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ctions-in-gaza
Members of the Board of Deputies, the largest body representing British Jews, have said they can no longer “turn a blind eye or remain silent” over the war in Gaza.
In a significant break with the board’s customary support for the Israeli government, the 36 signatories to an open letter published in the FT say “Israel’s soul is being ripped out”.
Since the war began after the terrorist atrocities committed by Hamas against Israelis on 7 October 2023, statements by the Board of Deputies of British Jews have been broadly supportive of the Israeli government.
But the letter, signed by about one in eight of the board’s members, is highly critical of recent actions by the Israeli government.
It says: “The inclination to avert our eyes is strong, as what is happening is unbearable, but our Jewish values compel us to stand up and to speak out.”
Last month, after a pause in fighting during which dozens of Israelis held hostage in Gaza were released, the Israeli government “chose to break the ceasefire and return to war in Gaza … Since then, no hostages have returned. Hundreds and hundreds more Palestinians have been killed; food, fuel and medical supplies have once again been blocked from entering Gaza; and we are back in a brutal war where the killing of 15 paramedics and their burial in a mass grave is again possible and risks being normal.
“Such incidents are too painful and shocking to take in, but we know in our hearts we cannot turn a blind eye or remain silent at this renewed loss of life and livelihoods, with hopes dwindling for a peaceful reconciliation and the return of the hostages.
“This most extremist of Israeli governments is openly encouraging violence against Palestinians in the West Bank, strangling the Palestinian economy and building more new settlements than ever … Israel’s soul is being ripped out and we, members of the Board of Deputies of British Jews, fear for the future of the Israel we love and have such close ties to.”
The letter adds: “Silence is seen as support for policies and actions that run contrary to our Jewish values. Led by the families of the hostages, hundreds of thousands of Israelis are demonstrating on the streets against the return to war by an Israeli government that has not prioritised the return of the hostages. We stand with them. We stand against the war … It is our duty, as Jews, to speak out.”
One of the signatories, Philip Goldenberg, a lawyer, said the Israeli government had “absolutely adopted the Trump playbook”, including demonising those who disagreed with it. “That is not what Israel is about,” he told the BBC’s The World at One.
There was a “whole range of views” among British Jews, “and there are those who think we should not have done this”, he said. There were others who shared the views expressed in the letter but “don’t want to put their heads above the parapet”.
What was happening in Gaza was “a total breach of Jewish ethical values”, he added. “More damage is being done to the Zionist project by Netanyahu than Hamas could ever achieve.”
A spokesperson for the Board of Deputies said other members would “no doubt put more emphasis on the fundamental responsibility of Hamas for this ghastly situation and the need to ensure that they are prevented from ever repeating the heinous crimes of 7 October”.
Within the diversity of views among British Jews, “however, there is much unity”, the spokesperson added. The UK Jewish community wanted to see Hamas release the remaining hostages, aid flowing in to Gaza and “definitive progress towards lasting peace and security for Israelis, Palestinians and the wider Middle East”.
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
And the pushback.... to rejoin the genocide train.
Sickening but not surprising!
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8rg0xvdm8po
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...atima-hassouna
As a young photojournalist living in Gaza, Fatima Hassouna knew that death was always at her doorstep. As she spent the past 18 months of war documenting airstrikes, the demolition of her home, the endless displacement and the killing of 11 family members, all she demanded was that she not be allowed to go quietly.
“If I die, I want a loud death,” Hassouna wrote on social media. “I don’t want to be just breaking news, or a number in a group, I want a death that the world will hear, an impact that will remain through time, and a timeless image that cannot be buried by time or place.”
On Wednesday, just days before her wedding, 25-year-old Hassouna was killed in an Israeli airstrike that hit her home in northern Gaza. Ten members of her family, including her pregnant sister, were also killed.
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...i-aid-blockade
Gaza has been pushed to new depths of despair, civilians, medics and humanitarian workers say, by the unprecedented seven-week-long Israeli military blockade that has cut off all aid to the strip.
The siege has left the Palestinian territory facing conditions unmatched in severity since the beginning of the war as residents grapple with sweeping new evacuation orders, the renewed bombing of civilian infrastructure such as hospitals, and the exhaustion of food, fuel for generators and medical supplies.
Israel unilaterally abandoned a two-month ceasefire with Palestinian militant group Hamas on 2 March, cutting off vital supplies. Just over two weeks later, it resumed large-scale bombing and redeployed ground troops withdrawn during the truce.
Since then, political figures and security officials have repeatedly vowed that aid deliveries will not resume until Hamas releases the remaining hostages seized during the 7 October 2023 attacks that ignited the conflict. Israel’s government has framed the new siege as a security measure and has repeatedly denied using starvation as a weapon, which would constitute a war crime.
The blockade is now entering its eighth week, making it the longest continuous total siege the strip has faced to date in the 18-month war.
Firmly supported by the US, its most important ally under Donald Trump, Israel appears confident that it can maintain the siege with little international pushback.
It is also moving ahead with large-scale seizures of Palestinian land for security buffer zones, and plans to shift control of aid delivery to the army and private contractors, exacerbating fears in Gaza that Israel intends to maintain boots on the ground in the territory long-term and permanently displace its residents.
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
A lame PR exercise to minimise the damage until the world moves on and forgets.
This was an atrocity.
Other, much more credible evidence, contradicts the IDF revised story.
If the phones hadn’t been found in the mass grave there wouldn’t even have been this mealy mouthed partial admission.
Arrests? Prosecutions? No - just one officer removed from post. That is normally code for re-deployed with no other consequences.
This was an atrocity.
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
A lame PR exercise to minimise the damage until the world moves on and forgets.
This was an atrocity.
Other, much more credible evidence, contradicts the IDF revised story.
If the phones hadn’t been found in the mass grave there wouldn’t even have been this mealy mouthed partial admission.
Arrests? Prosecutions? No - just one officer removed from post. That is normally code for re-deployed with no other consequences.
This was an atrocity.
Mistakes .....?
Well basically that's nonsense , it was execution of innocent people
Nothing would have been said if they weren't sussed out
And of course now it has been exposed....nothing will be done
And people wonder why hamas exist and still have support ?
If that had happened to our loved ones we would be supporting resistance of some kind too
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
Failure ? That's so pathetic it's almost laughable
It's a massacre by the IDF
Of innocent medical staff
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Failure ? That's so pathetic it's almost laughable
It's a massacre by the IDF
Of innocent medical staff
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp317zx3r93o
The Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) has described an Israeli military report into a deadly attack on its paramedics as "full of lies".
The Israeli military said in its report that "professional failures" led to the killing of the 15 workers in Gaza. It dismissed the deputy commander of the unit involved.
A spokeswoman for the PRCS said the report was "invalid" as it "justifies and shifts the responsibility to a personal error in the field command when the truth is quite different".
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jon1959
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp317zx3r93o
The Palestinian Red Crescent Society (PRCS) has described an Israeli military report into a deadly attack on its paramedics as "full of lies".
The Israeli military said in its report that "professional failures" led to the killing of the 15 workers in Gaza. It dismissed the deputy commander of the unit involved.
A spokeswoman for the PRCS said the report was "invalid" as it "justifies and shifts the responsibility to a personal error in the field command when the truth is quite different".
There will never be an end to this 💔
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr4n90g6v9qo
I was 11 at the time of the Six Day War and my childishly simplistic view at the time was that Israel were the "goodies" abd the Arabs "the baddies". This had something to do with my looking in an Atlas and seeing the size of Israel compared to their enemies, but it would also have been influenced by the way the War was reported and, as I recall, it was more pro Israel than the reporting we see today. I think many of the attitudes which drive the "classical" USA/Israel relationship were formed around the time of the Six Days War and I'm hopeful that things might look a lot different in fifteen to twenty years time - that's hardly going to do Gaza any good though given what Israel appearing to be preparing to do now.
Re: 40 Killed In Hamas Attacks In Israel
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cr4n90g6v9qo
I was 11 at the time of the Six Day War and my childishly simplistic view at the time was that Israel were the "goodies" abd the Arabs "the baddies". This had something to do with my looking in an Atlas and seeing the size of Israel compared to their enemies, but it would also have been influenced by the way the War was reported and, as I recall, it was more pro Israel than the reporting we see today. I think many of the attitudes which drive the "classical" USA/Israel relationship were formed around the time of the Six Days War and I'm hopeful that things might look a lot different in fifteen to twenty years time - that's hardly going to do Gaza any good though given what Israel appearing to be preparing to do now.
I hope they at least erect a huge plaque with the names of the many many innocents who have needlessly been slaughtered to facilitate the creation of the future Gaza Riviera project.
