Far-right Leader ( Italy's 1st female PM) Is European Landscape Changing

Something afoot Holmes was UK right to leave . :sherlock::sherlock:

Is she far-right or just not a WEF endorsed globalist?

Nothing but sunlit uplands here in the UK

They aren’t really ‘far-right’ at all. Solidly right-wing perhaps, but, as if often the case, economically there are many traditional left-wing policies, and the ‘far-right’ label tends to come from the (supposedly liberal) media, concerned more with sensation than historical accuracy.

Nonetheless, it is a significant shift to the right, but has been coming in Italy for years as their economy has stagnated for many many years and it’s always been an electorate willing to look for more radical solutions – it was home to western Europes most successful Communist party for decades.

What it does show is that the problems we face are replicated to a greater or lesser extent almost everywhere. The winds blowing through national economies at the moment are regional and global in nature and that’s where the solutions also lie. Some here like to think every problem we face is caused by our government, and so some in Italy think the same. Both are wrong. Expect Italy to elect a left-wing government in their next election, which knowing Italy, probably won’t be more than 2-3 years away.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

They aren’t really ‘far-right’ at all. Solidly right-wing perhaps, but, as if often the case, economically there are many traditional left-wing policies, and the ‘far-right’ label tends to come from the (supposedly liberal) media, concerned more with sensation than historical accuracy.

Nonetheless, it is a significant shift to the right, but has been coming in Italy for years as their economy has stagnated for many many years and it’s always been an electorate willing to look for more radical solutions – it was home to western Europes most successful Communist party for decades.

What it does show is that the problems we face are replicated to a greater or lesser extent almost everywhere. The winds blowing through national economies at the moment are regional and global in nature and that’s where the solutions also lie. Some here like to think every problem we face is caused by our government, and so some in Italy think the same. Both are wrong. Expect Italy to elect a left-wing government in their next election, which knowing Italy, probably won’t be more than 2-3 years away.

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I did wonder this when I saw the headline, they like to throw around far right/far left labels very often.

Here is the matrix and viewpoint from political compass:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/italy2022

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

They aren’t really ‘far-right’ at all. Solidly right-wing perhaps, but, as if often the case, economically there are many traditional left-wing policies, and the ‘far-right’ label tends to come from the (supposedly liberal) media, concerned more with sensation than historical accuracy.

Nonetheless, it is a significant shift to the right, but has been coming in Italy for years as their economy has stagnated for many many years and it’s always been an electorate willing to look for more radical solutions – it was home to western Europes most successful Communist party for decades.

What it does show is that the problems we face are replicated to a greater or lesser extent almost everywhere. The winds blowing through national economies at the moment are regional and global in nature and that’s where the solutions also lie. Some here like to think every problem we face is caused by our government, and so some in Italy think the same. Both are wrong. Expect Italy to elect a left-wing government in their next election, which knowing Italy, probably won’t be more than 2-3 years away.

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According to Wikipedia, " Since the end of World War II in 1945, Italy has had 69 governments, at an average of one every 1.11 years"!

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Originally Posted by Eric Cartman

I did wonder this when I saw the headline, they like to throw around far right/far left labels very often.

Here is the matrix and viewpoint from political compass:

https://www.politicalcompass.org/italy2022

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Although Meloni, 45, began her political life in the Youth Wing of the fascist Italian Social Movement, she has distanced herself from Mussolini’s suppression of democracy and the anti-Jewish laws. At the same time, her close links to the likes of Spain’s far right Vox Party and Hungary’s authoritarian nationalist leader Viktor Orbán reveal her inner-most instincts. Universal rights and protection of minorities, including the LGBT community, are not to her liking, and there is no question that a Meloni-led coalition would be at odds with much of the EU project. Meloni nevertheless is keen to continue with post-Covid funding from Brussels.

That sounds pretty far f*cking right to me. She sounds awful.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Although Meloni, 45, began her political life in the Youth Wing of the fascist Italian Social Movement, she has distanced herself from Mussolini’s suppression of democracy and the anti-Jewish laws. At the same time, her close links to the likes of Spain’s far right Vox Party and Hungary’s authoritarian nationalist leader Viktor Orbán reveal her inner-most instincts. Universal rights and protection of minorities, including the LGBT community, are not to her liking, and there is no question that a Meloni-led coalition would be at odds with much of the EU project. Meloni nevertheless is keen to continue with post-Covid funding from Brussels.

That sounds pretty far f*cking right to me. She sounds awful.

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Almost as right as the current UK Government! Off the scale I think.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Almost as right as the current UK Government! Off the scale I think.

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Agree. Then there's the cynical 'keen to continue with post-Covid funding from Brussels' bit.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Almost as right as the current UK Government! Off the scale I think.

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:hehe::facepalm:

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

:hehe::facepalm:

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Again, you take the p*ss but he's on the money. You can't face up to the fact that you're always supporting a government and party that have some fairly despicable policies and views on the freedoms of their people. It's what you do. You'll keep doing it. It won't change.

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Almost as right as the current UK Government! Off the scale I think.

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In the same link posted by Eric earlier, here's something else:

Throughout so much of Europe, we’re seeing the emergence of a sort of national socialism, facilitated partly through the Left’s declining ability to connect with working class voters. In Italy, the progressive parties have failed to counter what looks likely to be a right wing landslide.

I'd say that's very similar to the rhetoric and actions from the Conservatives wouldn't you?

Take note Starmer boy!

Edit: and if that doesn't put the fear of the gods into people, then we're heading for a rinse and repeat of European history and we all know where that leads.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

In the same link posted by Eric earlier, here's something else:

Throughout so much of Europe, we’re seeing the emergence of a sort of national socialism, facilitated partly through the Left’s declining ability to connect with working class voters. In Italy, the progressive parties have failed to counter what looks likely to be a right wing landslide.

I'd say that's very similar to the rhetoric and actions from the Conservatives wouldn't you?

Take note Starmer boy!

Edit: and if that doesn't put the fear of the gods into people, then we're heading for a rinse and repeat of European history and we all know where that leads.

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Yes we live in really troubling times

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Originally Posted by Dorcus

Yes we live in really troubling times

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By the way, I wasn't calling you Starmer boy! I was actually (and pointlessly) speaking directly to him.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

By the way, I wasn't calling you Starmer boy! I was actually (and pointlessly) speaking directly to him.

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Oh thanks for that, I would have been heartily upset, I would have accepted Corbyn boy though with glee 👍

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Again, you take the p*ss but he's on the money. You can't face up to the fact that you're always supporting a government and party that have some fairly despicable policies and views on the freedoms of their people. It's what you do. You'll keep doing it. It won't change.

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No he isn't. He's absolutely incorrect. To say "Italy's new "far-right" government is almost as right [wing] as the UK's is just plain wrong. Opinions are one thing, and I'll grant you, the definitions of right and left are imperfect, but it is an absurd characterisation.

What are these policies you speak of!?

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

No he isn't. He's absolutely incorrect. To say "Italy's new "far-right" government is almost as right [wing] as the UK's is just plain wrong. Opinions are one thing, and I'll grant you, the definitions of right and left are imperfect, but it is an absurd characterisation.

What are these policies you speak of!?

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Deportation of asylum-seekers to Rwanda, Rights to Protest, forcing people with disabilities to work more hours on a whim in Friday's budget (yes, these are the one's who have been incorrectly told they are fit for work and will win after appeal after a year's wait, IF they live that long). Keeping environmental protesters in prison without trial for 6 months. Humiliating disabled people during capability for work assessments. DWP illegally allowing energy companies to take money from vulnerable people at source. Demonising vulnerable people. This stuff we've/I've been on the receiving end of for 12 f*cking years. This is right wing ideology. Just read the stuff Braverman has said recently.

I'm not in the mood James. He's not incorrect. It's not absurd. It's just that you think these things because you're an apologist for these tw*ts in power and have been ever since I've been reading your posts. We all know this. Take a straw poll mate and see what people think.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

Deportation of asylum-seekers to Rwanda, Rights to Protest, forcing people with disabilities to work more hours on a whim in Friday's budget (yes, these are the one's who have been incorrectly told they are fit for work and will win after appeal after a year's wait, IF they live that long). Keeping environmental protesters in prison without trial for 6 months. Humiliating disabled people during capability for work assessments. DWP illegally allowing energy companies to take money from vulnerable people at source. Demonising vulnerable people. This stuff we've/I've been on the receiving end of for 12 f*cking years. This is right wing ideology. Just read the stuff Braverman has said recently.

I'm not in the mood James. He's not incorrect. It's not absurd. It's just that you think these things because you're an apologist for these tw*ts in power and have been ever since I've been reading your posts. We all know this. Take a straw poll mate and see what people think.

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Sorry Citizens Nephew, but you make a sensible conversation about the Italian election, or anything else political, very difficult if you take a knee-jerk reaction and just start labelling everything as extremist all the time using often incorrect cherry picked examples from the many hundreds of policies floating about (ignoring the equalling up of immigration points so they are applied equally, ignoring record rises in the minimum wage, ignoring record increases in NHS spending etc, falsely saying we now have no right to protest etc).

New Zealand banned foreigners buying houses last year. Spain didn't let people leave the house without a mask. It doesn't mean they are fascist dictatorships, they are cherry picked examples of policies, which you have done.

There is much to say about Italy and The UK, but just labelling everything as far-right and then expecting everyone to fall inline with that simplistic (and IMO very false) analysis is not really a useful way to spend our time.

It's just another CCMB thread ruined.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

Sorry Citizens Nephew, but you make a sensible conversation about the Italian election, or anything else political, very difficult if you take a knee-jerk reaction and just start labelling everything as extremist all the time using often incorrect cherry picked examples from the many hundreds of policies floating about (ignoring the equalling up of immigration points so they are applied equally, ignoring record rises in the minimum wage, ignoring record increases in NHS spending etc, falsely saying we now have no right to protest etc).

New Zealand banned foreigners buying houses last year. Spain didn't let people leave the house without a mask. It doesn't mean they are fascist dictatorships, they are cherry picked examples, which you have done.

There is much to say about Italy and The UK, but just labelling everything as far-right and then expecting everyone to fall inline with that simplistic (and IMO very false) analysis is not really a useful way to spend our time.

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So, you're silencing me and won't acknowledge that what I'm saying is real, happening to people in this country and is extreme.

Of course I'm ignoring f*cking record increases in NHS spending when I couldn't get an ambulance last week during a serious incident. James, I'm living in the real world and not a world of spreadsheets, and media bubbles.

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

So, you're silencing me and won't acknowledge that what I'm saying is real, happening to people in this country and is extreme.

Of course I'm ignoring f*cking record increases in NHS spending when I couldn't get an ambulance last week during a serious incident. James, I'm living in the real world and not a world of spreadsheets, and media bubbles.

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How am I silencing you?

I have every sympathy on this, and my own father has used ambulances 3 times this year (in England) but if you live in Wales, your ambulances aren't anything to do with the UK government. They are solely, and have been for 20+ years, the responsibility of the Welsh Govt.

The real world does contain some (not all) of what you said, but it also contains hundreds of other policies that would drag your analysis that we are some kind of fascist state, back into the world of reality where it belongs.

We need a kind of CCMB equivalent of Godwins law but that refers to any discussion inevitably referring to the Tories irrespective of the topic.

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

How am I silencing you?

I have every sympathy on this, and my own father has used ambulances 3 times this year (in England) but if you live in Wales, your ambulances aren't anything to do with the UK government. They are solely, and have been for 20+ years, the responsibility of the Welsh Govt.

The real world does contain some (not all) of what you said, but it also contains hundreds of other policies that would drag your analysis that we are some kind of fascist state, back into the world of reality where it belongs.

We need a kind of CCMB equivalent of Godwins law but that refers to any discussion inevitably referring to the Tories irrespective of the topic.

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Trouble we have to blame someone , even in Wales we blame right wingers for mismanagement of Welsh Governments continued own failures .

If I was Labour / Drakeford I'd never want full devolved government and self power as the Scot's seek , as you'd lose that valuable child like rant off :: ( its wasn't my fault , it was his them ) .

Just imagine all that self responsibility and budget spends on WAG's shoulders ...

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Originally Posted by JamesWales

How am I silencing you?

I have every sympathy on this, and my own father has used ambulances 3 times this year (in England) but if you live in Wales, your ambulances aren't anything to do with the UK government. They are solely, and have been for 20+ years, the responsibility of the Welsh Govt.

The real world does contain some (not all) of what you said, but it also contains hundreds of other policies that would drag your analysis that we are some kind of fascist state, back into the world of reality where it belongs.

We need a kind of CCMB equivalent of Godwins law but that refers to any discussion inevitably referring to the Tories irrespective of the topic.

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That's an evasive response response as usual and the last sentence is a good example of what I mean by silencing critique by making light of someone's legitimate and very real-world concerns.

I'm sorry your father has had to use ambulances 3 times this year. Waiting 3+ hours during an emergency is unacceptable in the UK whoever is in charge of the funding and is scary. I hope his experience was better than mine.

You've incorrectly said that I stated we are in some kind of fascist state. I didn't. I feel we have a government with far right ideology. I've never used the word fascist as far as I can recall. I did cite the article which referred to National Socialism in Europe which is pretty worrying.

I also didn't say there were no rights to protest I merely cited the rights to protest. The government's Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 is straight out of the rightwing playbook imo. I've read it. Been active in protesting it and like I said, we already have environmental protesters in custody, without charge, for 6 months.

You can't accuse me of cherry picking then go on and hypocritically cherry pick until you've gorged yourself with sanctimony. You don't get to be this poster boy for the tories on CCMB and then complain when you're called on it.

I think that most of what you say is just right wing propaganda and shilling for the conservatives. It's not nice when someone says things like that is it?

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Originally Posted by Citizen's Nephew

That's an evasive response response as usual and the last sentence is a good example of what I mean by silencing critique by making light of someone's legitimate and very real-world concerns.

I'm sorry your father has had to use ambulances 3 times this year. Waiting 3+ hours during an emergency is unacceptable in the UK whoever is in charge of the funding and is scary. I hope his experience was better than mine.

You've incorrectly said that I stated we are in some kind of fascist state. I didn't. I feel we have a government with far right ideology. I've never used the word fascist as far as I can recall. I did cite the article which referred to National Socialism in Europe which is pretty worrying.

I also didn't say there were no rights to protest I merely cited the rights to protest. The government's Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Act 2022 is straight out of the rightwing playbook imo. I've read it. Been active in protesting it and like I said, we already have environmental protesters in custody, without charge, for 6 months.

You can't accuse me of cherry picking then go on and hypocritically cherry pick until you've gorged yourself with sanctimony. You don't get to be this poster boy for the tories on CCMB and then complain when you're called on it.

I think that most of what you say is just right wing propaganda and shilling for the conservatives. It's not nice when someone says things like that is it?

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The answer to your concerns is to stop using anecdotal or cherry picked evidence to come to an extreme conclusion that simply isn't accurate.

A balanced look at things, would take stock of the issues you mention, but balance them with other considerations; the rise in NHS funding, implementing a referendum result some wanted to ignore, the rise in the lowest tax threshold, the support shown for Ukraine, investment in offshore wind, the ability ultimately to have peacefully replaced a leader, an immigration policy that treats Africans and Europeans equally, the interventions in the market during Covid, the energy support grants, the very diverse cabinets; all of which point to a government enacting many policies that you would most likely consider to be left-of-centre policies.

Is the current UK government a right-wing one? On balance, yes. But that doesn't mean it is to the right of the party that has just won the Italian election.

Thank you for the sympathy on the ambulances. It's tempting not to mention the irony that some climate protesters were arrested for disrupting ambulances. That isn't a right to protest IMO, it's disrupting peoples lives and there are rightly limits to that. More specifically, the fact we have issues with the NHS across the entire UK, irrespective of government shows the issues are probably not caused by the UK govt and there is something else, perhaps structural at play.

More generally, I would have sympathy for a lot of what you say, but when it's just packaged as being evidence that the UK has some far-right / extremist / fascist (whatever words you use) government, it's hard to take it entirely seriously.

As usual, I'm not blindly defending the government, it's a cry for reason. I'd do the same if someone was claiming Welsh Labour are some communist disaster, but they never do. It's always one-direction, from people who will take any topic and use it to rant.

Now, what about Italy? What has caused this election result do you think? What will happen next? Surely, there is more interest in that topic than you claiming we have some extreme right-wing govt here and me saying hang on a moment ad infinitum?!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_Z1LClnhsk

She quoted Chesterton:

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