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Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Any of our academy thread experts know who he is?
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dembe
Anyone know anything about him.
It says French born but he’s been playing with us since U10s so he might be eligible for Wales
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quick google says he joined us from an under 10's team in Bristol and hes an inner city kid.
Good luck to the boy, could be life changing for him and his family. Not his fault the rules are a joke, wherby the big clubs can just come and take your best talent for 250k and sell them on for millions. Lets hope a decent sell on fee, if any, has been agreed so we dont get stung like when they took Rabbi Matondo.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J R Hartley
Quick google says he joined us from an under 10's team in Bristol and hes an inner city kid.
Good luck to the boy. Not his fault the rules are a joke where the big clubs can just come and take your best talent for 250k and sell them on for millions.
Agree with this.
The rules are the rules and they are a joke but you can't blame the kid going to Man City after seeing their setup.
What we need to do is provide a better offering. The only offering we can do is play these kids in first team football. Play them or take the £250k (which may be a lot more than if they never make it)
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
It was mentioned on the long running thread about the Development and Academy teams yesterday and the point was made that he's the fourth player we've lost to the big clubs in the last eighteen months or so - if it's happening to us, there has to be every chance that it's much the same for all other EFL clubs with expensive Academy's to run. All of this of course while the likes of Man City have reneged on a deal which was due to paid in September to EFL clubs by those in the Premier League.
As for the player we're apparently getting £250k for, I'd never heard of him until yesterday.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
Agree with this.
The rules are the rules and they are a joke but you can't blame the kid going to Man City after seeing their setup.
What we need to do is provide a better offering. The only offering we can do is play these kids in first team football. Play them or take the £250k (which may be a lot more than if they never make it)
How on earth could we play him in the first team ? He is only 15 !
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Should be a sell on clause or increments based on future first team appearances, £250,000 is peanuts in the big picture. Not getting a payout on Gareth Bale’s subsequent transfers was a bitter pill to swallow.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
the other bob wilson
It was mentioned on the long running thread about the Development and Academy teams yesterday and the point was made that he's the fourth player we've lost to the big clubs in the last eighteen months or so - if it's happening to us, there has to be every chance that it's much the same for all other EFL clubs with expensive Academy's to run. All of this of course while the likes of Man City have reneged on a deal which was due to paid in September to EFL clubs by those in the Premier League.
As for the player we're apparently getting £250k for, I'd never heard of him until yesterday.
Only going to get worse thanks to Brexit. This was called out by Kieran Maguire years ago.
Scottish clubs looking at offering pro-contracts at 14 to try to stop it.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
Agree with this.
The rules are the rules and they are a joke but you can't blame the kid going to Man City after seeing their setup.
What we need to do is provide a better offering. The only offering we can do is play these kids in first team football. Play them or take the £250k (which may be a lot more than if they never make it)
We're never going to consistently be able to keep players from going to PL clubs unless we become an established PL team
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J R Hartley
Quick google says he joined us from an under 10's team in Bristol and hes an inner city kid.
Good luck to the boy, could be life changing for him and his family. Not his fault the rules are a joke, wherby the big clubs can just come and take your best talent for 250k and sell them on for millions. Lets hope a decent sell on fee, if any, has been agreed so we dont get stung like when they took Rabbi Matondo.
It’s an absolute joke that they are able to do this to us and many other teams.
It’s probably the worse ruling since the Bosman fiasco , which is another cluster **** beyond comprehension.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J R Hartley
Quick google says he joined us from an under 10's team in Bristol and hes an inner city kid.
Good luck to the boy, could be life changing for him and his family. Not his fault the rules are a joke, wherby the big clubs can just come and take your best talent for 250k and sell them on for millions. Lets hope a decent sell on fee, if any, has been agreed so we dont get stung like when they took Rabbi Matondo.
Agree.
Sort of on topic (ish) - I meant to ask you the other day. Do you think (if true of course) that Isaak Davies should have gone to Burnley when there was supposed interest? My view is that he should have. May have made a big difference to both him and the club. We won't know. But, in light of events at CCFC since, just interested in your take as I know you have followed his career closely.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
The trouble is when a team has a unlimited pot of money, they can offer schoolboy terms to anyone they like, great for the boy and his parents, but whats the chances of this lad being just another face, ending up on loan at a non-league club and discarded in 10 years
something needs to be done, maybe schoolboy terms need to be with a team within a certain distance from your home / school ( easy to get around buy moving the player and parents, but a little more costly )
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Maybe those who know more than me can say but I read these things and think why not just close the academy. It just cost a few million a year to run? Spent 2m on a decent young up and coming player every year, we would probably end up with more.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
There should be a rule making it compulsory for the purchasing clubs to include really decent sell-on clauses when they sign players too young for professional contracts who've been with the selling club for more than a couple of years. Could be a sliding scale based on how long they've been with the academy.
£250k is nothing to Man City. How many of these players do they and the other big teams hoover up every year, with the possibility that they'll either make it and play for them or they'll sell them for a tidy profit? The big clubs get bigger, the small clubs stay small.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Originally Posted by
2b2bdoo
Maybe those who know more than me can say but I read these things and think why not just close the academy. It just cost a few million a year to run? Spent 2m on a decent young up and coming player every year, we would probably end up with more.
It's a really good question. I'd like to know the answer to that too. I don't understand the system well enough. On the face of it, what you suggest makes sense. I hope people can shed more light on this.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
Agree.
Sort of on topic (ish) - I meant to ask you the other day. Do you think (if true of course) that Isaak Davies should have gone to Burnley when there was supposed interest? My view is that he should have. May have made a big difference to both him and the club. We won't know. But, in light of events at CCFC since, just interested in your take as I know you have followed his career closely.
Probably in hindsight for his own career it woukd have been better if hed made the move. However, hes a local lad, whos family are City supporters, hes been with the club since hes 7 or 8, and it was probably his dream to play for City. Hed broken into the team the last year or so and along with Colwill it finally looked they were the two from the academy most likley to become regulars for the first team. Last season obviusly didnt play out as planned in the end for one reason or other, i dont hink injuries helped and then hes been frozen out by Bulut without being given much of a chance pre-season.
From what I hear and the snippets of interviews ive seen hes absolutely loving it out in Belgium. Will we ever see him a City shirt again? I have my doubts. Even if Bulut has a change of heart will Davies want to come back and play a bit part now hes getting regular first team action and played in his preffered position.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Undercoverinwurzelland
There should be a rule making it compulsory for the purchasing clubs to include really decent sell-on clauses when they sign players too young for professional contracts who've been with the selling club for more than a couple of years. Could be a sliding scale based on how long they've been with the academy.
£250k is nothing to Man City. How many of these players do they and the other big teams hoover up every year, with the possibility that they'll either make it and play for them or they'll sell them for a tidy profit? The big clubs get bigger, the small clubs stay small.
Man City and Chelsea just stock pile players to sell on for profit. The players they really think can make the first team will have been on their books from a young age, or the top foreign talent they sign from other European clubs. In my opinion when they are signing 15 year olds from lower league acadmeys its with sole purpose of making a profit on the 250k they need to fork out (and probably another £400k to buy the family a nice house and car and move them to the area).
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
2b2bdoo
Maybe those who know more than me can say but I read these things and think why not just close the academy. It just cost a few million a year to run? Spent 2m on a decent young up and coming player every year, we would probably end up with more.
There is that school of thought, but your recruitment needs to be a lot better than ours has been to make it viable. Brentford got rid of their academy and concentrated on recruitment but they had some of the best of recruitment and statisticians working for them with their rise up the leagues.
Also, our location probably doesnt help us in that respect. Brentford could cherry pick some of the best talent from those released by the bigger London clubs. Chris Mepham was with Chelsea as a youngster, got released and Brentford picked him up.
Eze got released by acadmeys of several clubs around the London area - Arsenal, Fulham, Reading, Milwall - before QPR signed him at 18 and sold to Palace for 17m 4 years later.
Im sure if it was that simple most club owners would be doing it rather than running an expensive academy.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
On the face of it we are losing our up and coming talent to the big boys but I wonder if we benefit in terms of access to loan players from these clubs - JWE for example?
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
It's a really good question. I'd like to know the answer to that too. I don't understand the system well enough. On the face of it, what you suggest makes sense. I hope people can shed more light on this.
Is it possible to work out an average cost of developing players to a certain age and that being the baseline figure the big boys have to pay - that would be fairer system
Or not allow youngsters to move until they are at the same age we can offer them a professional contract so they have a choice ??? Or does that not work either
It seems like in most things in life it is geared to the rich to keep getting richer and have the power over the small guy
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Originally Posted by
dml1954
How on earth could we play him in the first team ? He is only 15 !
Ethan Nwaneri was 15 years, 181 days old when he came on for Arsenal
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Originally Posted by
J R Hartley
Probably in hindsight for his own career it woukd have been better if hed made the move. However, hes a local lad, whos family are City supporters, hes been with the club since hes 7 or 8, and it was probably his dream to play for City. Hed broken into the team the last year or so and along with Colwill it finally looked they were the two from the academy most likley to become regulars for the first team. Last season obviusly didnt play out as planned in the end for one reason or other, i dont hink injuries helped and then hes been frozen out by Bulut without being given much of a chance pre-season.
From what I hear and the snippets of interviews ive seen hes absolutely loving it out in Belgium. Will we ever see him a City shirt again? I have my doubts. Even if Bulut has a change of heart will Davies want to come back and play a bit part now hes getting regular first team action and played in his preffered position.
Where would Isaak fit in this current system?
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Originally Posted by
J R Hartley
Man City and Chelsea just stock pile players to sell on for profit. The players they really think can make the first team will have been on their books from a young age, or the top foreign talent they sign from other European clubs. In my opinion when they are signing 15 year olds from lower league acadmeys its with sole purpose of making a profit on the 250k they need to fork out (and probably another £400k to buy the family a nice house and car and move them to the area).
So why not make it compulsory that any player that has compensation payout automatically has a 50% sell on clause?
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
So why not make it compulsory that any player that has compensation payout automatically has a 50% sell on clause?
Any change to the rules would probably require the votes of the likes of man city so would not get through similar to the distribution of wealth issue that keeps getting kicked down the road as they don't want to give it away and I am assuming if we had any stay at the top table we would think the same way
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
So why not make it compulsory that any player that has compensation payout automatically has a 50% sell on clause?
1. As Nobodys Rep says it probably needs to be voted on to bring in suhc a dramatic change to the rules and the big clubs who are currently taking advantage of the system have the most power and will be looking out for their own interests.
2. As the boys in question are effectively still children I would imagine there would be some employment contract hurdles to overcome. You cant just hold a childs registration agaisnt their will in the same way you cant hold onto an adult players registration ie the Bosman rule.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
Where would Isaak fit in this current system?
He probably wouldnt as Bulut likes someone bigger upfront as the lone striker but that wasnt the question I was asked.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
An 8 month injury layoff for a 15-year old doesn't sound good, I'd take the money.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
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Originally Posted by
Nobody's Rep
Or not allow youngsters to move until they are at the same age we can offer them a professional contract so they have a choice ??? Or does that not work either
We did offer him a contract but I think majority of youngsters given the choice would choose Man City over Cardiff City. Especially when things like offering to look after their families comes into the equation which is what happned with Matondo.
Unless someone has a certain plan then I think most players are going to be swayed by the bigger clus. there are the obvious exceptions of course. Evan Ferguson choose Brighton over the bigger clubs because he felt it would be better for his long term career path but hes obviously got great faith in his abilityh that hes already looking at brighton as a stepping stone.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J R Hartley
We did offer him a contract but I think majority of youngsters given the choice would choose Man City over Cardiff City. Especially when things like offering to look after their families comes into the equation which is what happned with Matondo.
Unless someone has a certain plan then I think most players are going to be swayed by the bigger clus. there are the obvious exceptions of course. Evan Ferguson choose Brighton over the bigger clubs because he felt it would be better for his long term career path but hes obviously got great faith in his abilityh that hes already looking at brighton as a stepping stone.
Fair enough - maybe the age at which they can be poached needs to change so they are nearer an age which they could legitimately see a pathway to the first team ??
But again as mentioned any rule change will need to be agreed by the poachers and that aint going to happen 🤔
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Timeo is a well regarded left winger
This time of year clubs are making decisions on who to offer scholarships to and in regards to the second year scholars first year pro deals
Unfortunately trying to keep the lid on exciting young players coming through is extremely difficult
Coaches and players talk
That’s the business we’re in 😕
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Sunnysideup
Timeo is a well regarded left winger
This time of year clubs are making decisions on who to offer scholarships to and in regards to the second year scholars first year pro deals
Unfortunately trying to keep the lid on exciting young players coming through is extremely difficult
Coaches and players talk
That’s the business we’re in 😕
Sadly this is what it is now, Business.
Few points from the above discussion
Bosman ruling: Brilliant idea, power to the worker, you don't want to lose somebody, offer them a longer contract. This is everything about protecting workers and should be applauded.
Academy: Cardiff City has social responsibility to offer opportunities to young people in the area to receive a higher level of coaching and other life skills that come with team sports and in a professional environment (Lucy ward talks a lot about this in academies, its not just football). How the club see that and measure viability is up to them, it wouldn't be hard. However, the removal of an academy because it doesn't produce financial gains or 1st team players is irrelevant, Cardiff City (all clubs) have that social responsibility!
Sell on fees: Don't know the numbers but "development" fee's are paid throughout a career, if this lad ends up being a Nathan Blake and moving every year for decent money Cardiff would get a small percent of that every time regardless.
https://priceoffootball.com/ is a good place for all these debates and more detailed factual information, as some of mine might not be :-) .
Thanks for listening to my TED Talk
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
WJ99mobile
Agree with this.
The rules are the rules and they are a joke but you can't blame the kid going to Man City after seeing their setup.
What we need to do is provide a better offering. The only offering we can do is play these kids in first team football. Play them or take the £250k (which may be a lot more than if they never make it)
Seems the new route into football, go to Man City go out on loan to a championship or league one team, get sold for a few million, maybe work your way back up to a lower level premier team.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J R Hartley
Probably in hindsight for his own career it woukd have been better if hed made the move. However, hes a local lad, whos family are City supporters, hes been with the club since hes 7 or 8, and it was probably his dream to play for City. Hed broken into the team the last year or so and along with Colwill it finally looked they were the two from the academy most likley to become regulars for the first team. Last season obviusly didnt play out as planned in the end for one reason or other, i dont hink injuries helped and then hes been frozen out by Bulut without being given much of a chance pre-season.
From what I hear and the snippets of interviews ive seen hes absolutely loving it out in Belgium. Will we ever see him a City shirt again? I have my doubts. Even if Bulut has a change of heart will Davies want to come back and play a bit part now hes getting regular first team action and played in his preffered position.
Cheers for that. It's great that he's loving Belgium. I think from just a non-football point of view, it's great he's getting that life experience too.
Re. him not fitting into a Bulut team. Yeah. Agree. I think there are a few Championship clubs that he'd get first-team football with. Same for Colwill (I know he's getting it now but I still think there's been a lot of wasted years for both players with us). We don't seem to appreciate them as much as we should early on and by the time we do get them playing, it never feels right. I know I'm being subjective and I can't really back it up other than it's just a feeling.
Re. some of the other things going on in this thread (which is a really good discussion and very interesting - I'm learning a lot) this popped into my inbox as I was reading your answers and the rest of the poster's comments. It seems a far cry from Man City looking after players the way they do and must be a factor in decision-making. I may be getting the wrong end of the stick here but isn't this kind of like the George Best days or am I missing something?
https://newsletter.cardiffcityfc.co....hALi_-IvDMfp5A
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J R Hartley
Quick google says he joined us from an under 10's team in Bristol and hes an inner city kid.
Good luck to the boy, could be life changing for him and his family. Not his fault the rules are a joke, wherby the big clubs can just come and take your best talent for 250k and sell them on for millions. Lets hope a decent sell on fee, if any, has been agreed so we dont get stung like when they took Rabbi Matondo.
I appreciate how it works, it works in our favour too as we got Joe Ralls at 16 didn't we!
I just think it's unfair, even though we can use the same system. Man City have got him because they "don't have enough options at that age group in his position" or words to that effect. So they're basically stockpiling and they'll cast 99 percent of them off, although if he's any good he's obviously in a better place to develop so you can see why they'd be sold on it.
Does anyone know if it's just that fee you get or do they include a sell on percentage? I have a feeling these deals are geared more towards the big team in the deal..
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Nobody's Rep
Is it possible to work out an average cost of developing players to a certain age and that being the baseline figure the big boys have to pay - that would be fairer system
Or not allow youngsters to move until they are at the same age we can offer them a professional contract so they have a choice ??? Or does that not work either
It seems like in most things in life it is geared to the rich to keep getting richer and have the power over the small guy
I'm sitting back and letting JR and others answer these questions. It's great. It's like our very own phone in Q&A session. I don't have enough knowledge but I do know how to ask questions! Good football discussion this. There's a lot of tie -in with other threads and subjects too. Like Reading's situation. I can only speak for myself, but I quite often don't appreciate the complexities of these systems.
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Football is such a unique employment situation. Employees are seen much more as being owned and honed by their first (or subsequent employer).
Imagine a mechanic serving an apprenticeship with a back street garage then progressing later to make it big, working his way up with bigger concerns and eventually owning a string of successful garages. Would we think that the back street garage who kicked him off in the game should receive a massive backhander for his introduction into the game? More or less the same situation, or is it?
I think the ‘rearing’ club should receive decent ongoing compensation but I’m all for fairness in football whereas the ‘suits’ at every level of the game see it as just another cut throat business. And the back street garage brings on another potentially top mechanic…….
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
splott parker
Football is such a unique employment situation. Employees are seen much more as being owned and honed by their first (or subsequent employer).
Imagine a mechanic serving an apprenticeship with a back street garage then progressing later to make it big, working his way up with bigger concerns and eventually owning a string of successful garages. Would we think that the back street garage who kicked him off in the game should receive a massive backhander for his introduction into the game? More or less the same situation, or is it?
I think the ‘rearing’ club should receive decent ongoing compensation but I’m all for fairness in football whereas the ‘suits’ at every level of the game see it as just another cut throat business. And the back street garage brings on another potentially top mechanic…….
I don't think someone progressing in life and chosing to gradually move up is the same thing, there aren't bigger garages hovering over the smaller garages to clear out any potential "stars"
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
splott parker
Football is such a unique employment situation. Employees are seen much more as being owned and honed by their first (or subsequent employer).
Imagine a mechanic serving an apprenticeship with a back street garage then progressing later to make it big, working his way up with bigger concerns and eventually owning a string of successful garages. Would we think that the back street garage who kicked him off in the game should receive a massive backhander for his introduction into the game? More or less the same situation, or is it?
I think the ‘rearing’ club should receive decent ongoing compensation but I’m all for fairness in football whereas the ‘suits’ at every level of the game see it as just another cut throat business. And the back street garage brings on another potentially top mechanic…….
Maybe a better simile is NHS Dentist, who f*ck off to the private sector as soon as they can. Football clubs do receive compensation, i think 5% of all future transfer fee's are dished out to the developing clubs, this is a FIFA rule. It's not decent but its better than sweet FA (pun intended)
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Re: Cardiff City set to lose another youngster to Man City
Quote:
Originally Posted by
J R Hartley
There is that school of thought, but your recruitment needs to be a lot better than ours has been to make it viable. Brentford got rid of their academy and concentrated on recruitment but they had some of the best of recruitment and statisticians working for them with their rise up the leagues.
Also, our location probably doesnt help us in that respect. Brentford could cherry pick some of the best talent from those released by the bigger London clubs. Chris Mepham was with Chelsea as a youngster, got released and Brentford picked him up.
Eze got released by acadmeys of several clubs around the London area - Arsenal, Fulham, Reading, Milwall - before QPR signed him at 18 and sold to Palace for 17m 4 years later.
Im sure if it was that simple most club owners would be doing it rather than running an expensive academy.
Seems Brentford would have been breaking Premier League rules by continting not to have an Academy.
https://www.brentfordfc.com/en/news/...o-open-academy
Huddersfield closed their Academy a few years back and have restructured in a similar way to Brentford - I like the idea of using the calendar year, rather than the academic one, for categorising their age group teams.
https://www.htafc.com/academy/