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English born Welsh players
Wales first ever international team in 1876 contained 5 English born player's. By the year 1890. 37 of the player's who represented Wales were born in England. Gleaned from BBC radio Cymru. Not researched by myself.. You don't get to decide where you were born, you do however get to decide who you play for up to a point. excuse the typo in thread before you start.:facepalm:
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Re: English born Wesh players
Same broadcast mentioned Emlyn Hughes, Fred Hughes boy. It's ok to play for England with a name like Emlyn, you can't choose that either.
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Re: English born Wesh players
I've seen many a thread in my time saying how stupid it is having all these South Africans playing for England in Cricket, and how it turns the sport into a farce. What we are seeing is players born in South Africa using ties to the country via parentage and then playing for a country. Did Kevin Pietersen grow up wanting to play for England, i dont think so, however the system made it easier to play for England and make it to the top than if he stayed in SA
What we then see is the very same people who would ridicule the Cricket model, will go out of their way to defend exactly the same thing happening in Welsh football.
Lets be honest the system as it stands isnt great. Wales do systematically identify players with legacy qualifications and get them playing in the age groups system in Wales. It has to do this to some extent because Wales has next to no structure in bringing through young players outside of the 4 English Football league clubs.
What is international sport, is it a product where you exhibit the best talent you can produce as a country, or is it a product where you use the rules to be as successful as you can.
Im as proud as anyone of the Welsh National Team, but i cannot agree with the Grandparent qualification. If people want to highlight the system that Wales employ at the moment, then in a way they are correct, and well within their rights.
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Re: English born Wesh players
Quote:
Originally Posted by
qccfc
I've seen many a thread in my time saying how stupid it is having all these South Africans playing for England in Cricket, and how it turns the sport into a farce. What we are seeing is players born in South Africa using ties to the country via parentage and then playing for a country. Did Kevin Pietersen grow up wanting to play for England, i dont think so, however the system made it easier to play for England and make it to the top than if he stayed in SA
What we then see is the very same people who would ridicule the Cricket model, will go out of their way to defend exactly the same thing happening in Welsh football.
Lets be honest the system as it stands isnt great. Wales do systematically identify players with legacy qualifications and get them playing in the age groups system in Wales. It has to do this to some extent because Wales has next to no structure in bringing through young players outside of the 4 English Football league clubs.
What is international sport, is it a product where you exhibit the best talent you can produce as a country, or is it a product where you use the rules to be as successful as you can.
Im as proud as anyone of the Welsh National Team, but i cannot agree with the Grandparent qualification. If people want to highlight the system that Wales employ at the moment, then in a way they are correct, and well within their rights.
Spot on.
The rules make international football pointless
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Re: English born Wesh players
Like what you say but the South African part seem's such a long way away as to highlight the whole issue in another light. Residency probably apllie's as well. Trying to extradite Wales from England is so hard as to be impossible. England made sure of that. A line needs to be drawn agreed, I just think the new Welsh lads are drawing they're own one.
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Re: English born Wesh players
Quote:
Originally Posted by
joecity
Like what you say but the South African seem,s such a long way away. Trying to extradite Wales from England is so hard as to be impossible. England made sure of that. A line needs to be drawn agreed, I just think the new Welsh lads are drawing they're own one.
People like Kevin Pietersen and Gregg Rusedski both had English Mothers, so they were a generation closer to England, than Ashley Williams is to Wales, yet some will say that the first 2 are a complete farce, where Williams (and plenty of others to be fair) are fine to pick where they want to choose.
There was a thread on here the other day that said Mo Farah wasn't British.
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Re: English born Wesh players
I really don't care, but Durham on Talksport was saying we have quite a few players that have never even lived in wales.
I had segregating people...who am I to say who is from where? But we are stretching it a bit :hehe:
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Re: English born Wesh players
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Originally Posted by
LordKenwyne
I really don't care, but Durham on Talksport was saying we have quite a few players that have never even lived in wales.
I had segregating people...who am I to say who is from where? But we are stretching it a bit :hehe:
He is right though The first time Ashely Williams came to Wales was to play for the national team. Im sure its the case for many others (i mean if only one grandparent was from an area).
Durham is simply doing what any Welshman has done in the past with the Plastic Paddy's, English Cricket team, Lennox Lewis, Mo farah, Gregg Rusedski, etc....
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Re: English born Wesh players
F*ck what Durham thinks. Me suggesting that I'm more Welsh because I speak Welsh than some of my fellow Welshmen deprived in South Wales of the chance to do so would be outrageous. If you're in you're in. Simple enough to my mind.
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Re: English born Wesh players
Adrian Durham was calling for Januzaj to play for England a few years back. He is irrelevant.
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Re: English born Wesh players
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Originally Posted by
joecity
F*ck what Durham thinks. Me suggesting that I'm more Welsh because I speak Welsh than some of my fellow Welshmen deprived in South Wales of the chance to do so would be outrageous. If you're in you're in. Simple enough to my mind.
I dont understand why people get upset about the Durham thing, in a way he's correct. We are scouting English legacy players and we are using the rules to our advantage. He is perfectly correct.
As Welsh fans we have to be content with that don't we. We have to be happy with the success, because we are fully aware that the situation is happening.
Surely the counter debate is that we are simply following the rules criteria that is set-out to us. In fact we are even hamstrung further from other country's outside the UK because we do not use residency rules. So we could never have a Diego Costa turning out for us.
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Re: English born Wesh players
Didn't want to give any oxygen to Durham in this thread. It is just hard these day's to separate Wales from England and vice versa under current and original qualification rules. A Welsh historian was quoting the first Welsh team. intereseting in a modern context. Wonder what was made of it back then.
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Re: English born Wesh players
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Originally Posted by
joecity
Didn't want to give any oxygen to Durham in this thread. It is just hard these day's to separate Wales from England and vice versa under current and original qualification rules. A Welsh historian was quoting the first Welsh team. intereseting in a modern context. Wonder what was made of it back then.
We would be fuming though if Bale was playing for England now though wouldn't we.
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Re: English born Wesh players
Difference is, we have a population of 3m, 25% of which is English and a huge amount of young people leave Wales in search of work, a lot of the time to England, we can't afford to be picky and we'll take whatever we can get. I don't care if they were born in Timbuktu, if they shown passion and desire when playing for Wales and are obviously committed to the country, they're as Welsh as anyone
If you showed someone who had no idea at all about football a Wales game, they'd assume Ashley Williams was as pure and passionate a Welshman as you could get, was born here and spends his time off playing Welsh Scrabble
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Re: English born Wesh players
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Originally Posted by
qccfc
We would be fuming though if Bale was playing for England now though wouldn't we.
I didn't fume about Owen Hargreaves and look at the time we invested in that young man. You could argue that i would fume more about Vinnie Jones playing for us. In the end I thought fair enough if he really want's to, can do and is into it. Again though it's a choice, you are in or you are out.
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Re: English born Wesh players
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Originally Posted by
joecity
I didn't fume about Michael Owen or Hargreaves.
Hargreaves was born in Canada, Owen from a border town from English parents.
Bale, and individual born in Wales, to Welsh Parents, went to school in Wales, but had one English Grandparent. Much like many currently playing for Wales, i must admit with the talent he possesses that would annoy me.
Surely you see the difference.
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Re: English born Welsh players
Course I see the difference but again I would say it's up to the individual. Of course i would be miffed if Bale played for England and some would be slagging off the FA for identifying Welsh/English qualified talent. Hargreaves came through the u21 with Brian Flynn whilst with B.Munich., he wanted to play for England and he did. I guess I mean you either want to play for Wales or you don't. Maybe England and the profile/agents/media could twist you're arm but the other way around seems more like a want. I'm happy with that.
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Re: English born Welsh players
People get way too hung up on nationality. The way I see it it's not about one thing, it's about where you're born, where you're brought up, where your family come from and even a strong affinity or love of a country.
As far as representing Wales at sport, all of the above are fine with me.
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Re: English born Welsh players
My thoughts on this are (very) well documented.
If a player isn't good enough to be picked for His own country, then why would he / should he, take the place of a Welsh player in their national team.
Obviously, Williams and Vokes would love to play for England, but were not good enough, so (some might say) selfishly play for Wales.
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Re: English born Welsh players
Impoverished countries have always endured mass migration. People need to earn to live, and in many cases it's in another country. The 'another' country's establishment is very often the cause of the lack of employment in the home country. Bit rich to bleat a few generations down the line over sport.
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
G rangetown Blue
My thoughts on this are (very) well documented.
If a player isn't good enough to be picked for His own country, then why would he / should he, take the place of a Welsh player in their national team.
Obviously, Williams and Vokes would love to play for England, but were not good enough, so (some might say) selfishly play for Wales.
Couldn't disagree more. I wish every Welsh person spoke Welsh but they don't and mostly can't. It's fine, It's the way it is for many reasons. Doesn't make them any any less Welsh too me it would just be nice in my mind. I buzzed hard when Williams, Vokes plus Robson-Kanu scored against Belgium as well as other high's in our game. They did n all, You can see it. It means something.
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Re: English born Welsh players
Quote:
Originally Posted by
G rangetown Blue
My thoughts on this are (very) well documented.
If a player isn't good enough to be picked for His own country, then why would he / should he, take the place of a Welsh player in their national team.
Obviously, Williams and Vokes would love to play for England, but were not good enough, so (some might say) selfishly play for Wales.
And have selfishly provided thousands of Welsh men and women with some of the greatest moments in Welsh football history
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
joecity
Couldn't disagree more. I wish every Welsh person spoke Welsh but they don't and mostly can't. It's fine, It's the way it is for many reasons. Doesn't make them any any less Welsh too me it would just be nice in my mind. I buzzed hard when Williams, Vokes plus Robson-Kanu scored against Belgium as well as other high's in our game. They did n all, You can see it. It means something.
You completely missed my point.
Why should an Englishman, rejected by England, play for Wales instead of a Welshman?
It's just selfish and egotistical, and morally wrong.
A few players (recent e.g. Turner and Shawcross), have politely declined, even though they 'qualify' they are not Welsh, and therefore did the decent thing.
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
City123
And have selfishly provided thousands of Welsh men and women with some of the greatest moments in Welsh football history
With more than a little help from some proper Welshmen! :thumbup:
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
G rangetown Blue
With more than a little help from some proper Welshmen! :thumbup:
Oh, your point on Vokes is completely invalid by the way, he played for Wales' Under 21s at 17, an age where he would still have had chances to play for England at any level, he instead committed to Wales and has showed a lot more commitment than a lot of "proper Welshman" (a certain Mr.Giggs springs to mind)
Williams has admitted to supporting England when he was a kid and of course he did, but now he seems himself as fully Welsh and has raised his children as such, nationality is more than whichever hospital you happen to have been born in
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Re: English born Welsh players
The essence of international football SHOULD be about determining which country has the greatest depth of talent at any point in time and not who can convince players to pull on their shirt because of a tenuous link.
The rules are wrong not the countries exploiting it.
If Germany (for example!!) win a World Cup with 11 foreigners in their squad doesn't it cheapen the achievement, what has it proved?
I just don't see the point in international football with the way the rules are openly exploited
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
City123
Oh, your point on Vokes is completely invalid by the way, he played for Wales' Under 21s at 17, an age where he would still have had chances to play for England at any level, he instead committed to Wales and has showed a lot more commitment than a lot of "proper Welshman" (a certain Mr.Giggs springs to mind)
Williams has admitted to supporting England when he was a kid and of course he did, but now he seems himself as fully Welsh and has raised his children as such, nationality is more than whichever hospital you happen to have been born in
I said they would obviously rather play for England. Surely you're not doubting that?
They are denying Welsh players (some who only qualify for Wales) a cap for their country, it's not right however you want to dress it up.
Ryan Giggs played every meaningful game for Wales he could. He is the most decorated Welsh player in history, one of the most decorated in the whole World, and managed his career perfectly. The fact that he never showed up for some dead rubber games, or money making friedlies was probably instigated by the MUFC management, and they were probably right.
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
Rhiw-Blue
The essence of international football SHOULD be about determining which country has the greatest depth of talent at any point in time and not who can convince players to pull on their shirt because of a tenuous link.
The rules are wrong not the countries exploiting it.
If Germany (for example!!) win a World Cup with 11 foreigners in their squad doesn't it cheapen the achievement, what has it proved?
I just don't see the point in international football with the way the rules are openly exploited
The Germans use non German born players.
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Re: English born Welsh players
As long as Players have a link to Wales ( grandparents are ok with me, look at Vinnie Jones, proud as hell to play for his granddads country ) as long as they commit and give 100% then its fine with me
I have said on here before, My oldest daughter was born In Bath, but only sees herself as Welsh, Her mum ( my wife ) is English aswell, but she is only ever going to be Welsh, nothing to discuss with her
We are heading towards a potential issue with her Netball, we have met England U21 coaches ( though they do not pick the U17 sqaud ) and they have made it clear they have hopes for her making the grade ( though she is aiming for Team GB ) but she will not entertain the English setup, she only sees herself playing in the green and red of Wales
Now i guess some will see a issue with her playing for Wales, afterall she was born in England, Not sure we will take much notice of them
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Re: English born Welsh players
An Englishman playing in a Welsh shirt would not work at all as they wouldn't be able to buy into the togetherness and pride in their country this team is built on. We don't have a team of mercenaries, we have a team who have become Welsh via birth or otherwise. Any question of this is a cheap shot or attempt to undermine our game.
Should international football do away with the grandparent rule? It is a debate to have but it should not be focussed on our team or our system.
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
splott parker
The Germans use non German born players.
They do, but a least the players CHOSE to play for Germany instead of their own country, which is a little different.
Williams for example was never given the choice, England never wanted him.
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
splott parker
The Germans use non German born players.
They are one of the worst (or best) at it.
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
G rangetown Blue
You completely missed my point.
Why should an Englishman, rejected by England, play for Wales instead of a Welshman?
It's just selfish and egotistical, and morally wrong.
A few players (recent e.g. Turner and Shawcross), have politely declined, even though they 'qualify' they are not Welsh, and therefore did the decent thing.
Still disagree sorry. Doubt Vokes and Williams were approached by England, couldn't care if they were. Turner n Shawcross either weren't or feel 100 English. Good for them. My old mans Dad is from Sierra Leon. He was born in Barry and is as welsh as they come, point is you are where you are now. If you feel Welsh then so be it. That is what you are. If Welsh born player's miss out to a dual player then they need to get better. Of course for me they would all speak Welsh and Be born of the Hen Wlad but they are not. As long as they commit and buzz of it i'm in.
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
blue matt
As long as Players have a link to Wales ( grandparents are ok with me, look at Vinnie Jones, proud as hell to play for his granddads country ) as long as they commit and give 100% then its fine with me
I have said on here before, My oldest daughter was born In Bath, but only sees herself as Welsh, Her mum ( my wife ) is English aswell, but she is only ever going to be Welsh, nothing to discuss with her
We are heading towards a potential issue with her Netball, we have met England U21 coaches ( though they do not pick the U17 sqaud ) and they have made it clear they have hopes for her making the grade ( though she is aiming for Team GB ) but she will not entertain the English setup, she only sees herself playing in the green and red of Wales
Now i guess some will see a issue with her playing for Wales, afterall she was born in England, Not sure we will take much notice of them
It's a little different when players have a choice, and choose who to play for.
But when it's obvious they are not Welsh ( dodgy grandparents birth cert!) then they should not be considered, it's not fair on the Welsh players missing out on caps for THEIR country.
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
joecity
Still disagree sorry. Doubt Vokes and Williams were approached by England, couldn't care if they were. Turner n Shawcross either weren't or feel 100 English. Good for them. My old mans Dad is from Sierra Leon. He was born in Barry and is as welsh as they come, point is you are where you are now. If you feel Welsh then so be it. That is what you are. If Welsh born player's miss out to a dual player then they need to get better. Of course for me they would all speak Welsh and Be born of the Hen Wlad but they are not. As long as they commit and buzz of it i'm in.
Of course they weren't approached by England, that's why they play for us.
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
G rangetown Blue
It's a little different when players have a choice, and choose who to play for.
But when it's obvious they are not Welsh ( dodgy grandparents birth cert!) then they should not be considered, it's not fair on the Welsh players missing out on caps for THEIR country.
I do get what you're saying my friend and you state you're case well. I just don't agree. It used to wind me up about Welsh people not speaking Welsh. Not anymore. I will Give you Prince Charles.. John Redwood trying to mime the anthem. Wrth gwrs, football wise can't we just get on the same page?
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
G rangetown Blue
Of course they weren't approached by England, that's why they play for us.
I meant Turner n the donkey mate
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
Rhiw-Blue
They are one of the worst (or best) at it.
All the Polish players who play for Germany, could have played for Poland if they wanted. The English players in the Welsh team could not have played for England. That's the difference.
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Re: English born Welsh players
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Originally Posted by
G rangetown Blue
All the Polish players who play for Germany, could have played for Poland if they wanted. The English players in the Welsh team could not have played for England. That's the difference.
They could have though. They didn't. It's a choice. They could have held out like Turner, Shawcross n co the other way around and maybe Never made it. They play for Wales. I'm glad. That's the choice they made and I bet not a one would change it.
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Re: English born Wesh players
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Originally Posted by
qccfc
He is right though The first time Ashely Williams came to Wales was to play for the national team. Im sure its the case for many others (i mean if only one grandparent was from an area).
Durham is simply doing what any Welshman has done in the past with the Plastic Paddy's, English Cricket team, Lennox Lewis, Mo farah, Gregg Rusedski, etc....
Michael Owen has never lived in England. Apart from his brief time in Madrid he has always lived in Wales. I believe that when he played for Newcastle Utd he commuted by helicopter to Tyneside. In this article http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport...-could-4749253
he claims that he lived in Newcastle and that the helicopter was for his family to visit him. He also seems to think that Hawarden is in north west England!
Quote:
“My wife in particular wanted to come back to England.”
And with a big family back in the North West, Owen explained his motives for why he snapped up a chopper during his United days.
What a f@cking tosser.