Boundary help

Hi all,

Tonight I've been involved in a boundary dispute with my neighbour. We are the middle two houses in a "terrace" of 4, so we don't have side access to our properties. I live on a hill so houses tend to be a different height, if not per house, then by a 2 house build. I guess it makes boundary recognition easy.

Attachment 3962

This is the back of the house. There appears to be a clear dividing line. However, my neighbour is claiming that her land is over a foot past that, so virtually to the start of the downstairs window and that her guttering is allowed to overspill as it's on her land. Deeds don't provide anything conclusive. At the front, the accepted divide is along the same line as the back.

There is a twist. She had an extension build 10 years ago that is not on land registry. The line down the garden veers into our land.

She is bad mouthing us to everyone in the street.

Anyone with any ideas?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Hi all,

Tonight I've been involved in a boundary dispute with my neighbour. We are the middle two houses in a "terrace" of 4, so we don't have side access to our properties. I live on a hill so houses tend to be a different height, if not per house, then by a 2 house build. I guess it makes boundary recognition easy.

Attachment 3962

This is the back of the house. There appears to be a clear dividing line. However, my neighbour is claiming that her land is over a foot past that, so virtually to the start of the downstairs window and that her guttering is allowed to overspill as it's on her land. Deeds don't provide anything conclusive. At the front, the accepted divide is along the same line as the back.

There is a twist. She had an extension build 10 years ago that is not on land registry. The line down the garden veers into our land.

She is bad mouthing us to everyone in the street.

Anyone with any ideas?

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Be very wary about getting involved in a boundary dispute. Never ends well and can be very costly.

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Originally Posted by Former Labour leader

Be very wary about getting involved in a boundary dispute. Never ends well and can be very costly.

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I'm aware of that. However, the cost is that my neighbour could well end up with quite a bit of land of ours free of charge.

https://www.ricsfirms.com/residentia...dary-disputes/

RICS Consumer Guide: Boundary Disputes

Just call 02476 868 555 and you will be put in touch with an RICS member local to you, willing to provide a free 30 minute initial consultation. Lines are open 0830 –1730, Monday to Friday.

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

Just call 02476 868 555 and you will be put in touch with an RICS member local to you, willing to provide a free 30 minute initial consultation. Lines are open 0830 –1730, Monday to Friday.

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Cheers. Will do. Thanks. I don't want bad feelings with my neighbours, but it needs sorting especially if either of us sells.

Is the implication regarding the extension that it did not have planning permission?

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

Is the implication regarding the extension that it did not have planning permission?

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Possibly, but we don't know. It might explain why our neighbours have been very aggressive towards us when we've suggested getting things sorted out legally.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Possibly, but we don't know. It might explain why our neighbours have been very aggressive towards us when we've suggested getting things sorted out legally.

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That's what I was thinking. If it does not have permission and the builder overstepped the boundary it will have to be demolished!
Or reasonable neighbours could come to a reasonable agreement.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

That's what I was thinking. If it does not have permission and the builder overstepped the boundary it will have to be demolished!
Or reasonable neighbours could come to a reasonable agreement.

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I'm quite happy to be reasonable, even with the bottom of the garden where they have about 2 feet more than at the top. She's claiming some land at the top that would come inside our bottom window. That I can't agree with.

Aren't property boundaries a matter of public record?

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Aren't property boundaries a matter of public record?

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They're not kept well enough to be that service.

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Originally Posted by NYCBlue

Aren't property boundaries a matter of public record?

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They're not 100% accurate.

in the past ive worked on many houses like this in S Wales, the boundary will be the edge of the house, look at the top and follow the line down, its even made easier with the yellow ( ish ) paint

the fascia and gutter will be overhanging on your land

If the extension has been there for over 4 years it’s exempt from planning enforcement action by virtue of section 171B of the Town and County Planning Act 1990. Your neighbour can apply (and automatically be granted providing they can evidence the extension being there for at least 4 years) a lawful development certificate to regularise it.

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Originally Posted by LeningradCowboy

Just call 02476 868 555 and you will be put in touch with an RICS member local to you, willing to provide a free 30 minute initial consultation. Lines are open 0830 –1730, Monday to Friday.

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Best advice.

You’re probably right but seems loads of assumptions being made possibly steering you incorrectly.

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Originally Posted by Van Halen

If the extension has been there for over 4 years it’s exempt from planning enforcement action by virtue of section 171B of the Town and County Planning Act 1990. Your neighbour can apply (and automatically be granted providing they can evidence the extension being there for at least 4 years) a lawful development certificate to regularise it.

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Always thought it 7!

Learn something new each day

4 years for operational development (i.e. a building or structure), 10 years for a change of use or breach of a planning condition.

Although a change of use to residential is also 4 years.

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Originally Posted by Van Halen

4 years for operational development (i.e. a building or structure), 10 years for a change of use or breach of a planning condition.

Although a change of use to residential is also 4 years.

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But if the building was constructed without permissions originally and it encroaches on another persons land?

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Cheers. Will do. Thanks. I don't want bad feelings with my neighbours, but it needs sorting especially if either of us sells.

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No one wants bad feelings with their neighbours Eric ( been through that in a more minor way,they've moved now luckily),unfortunately by the way she is behaving that ship may have sailed

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Originally Posted by blue matt

in the past ive worked on many houses like this in S Wales, the boundary will be the edge of the house, look at the top and follow the line down, its even made easier with the yellow ( ish ) paint

the fascia and gutter will be overhanging on your land

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Absolutely. That's what we are claiming.

We had another rant from her this morning so we've asked her to provide legal proof the boundary is where she says it is. I've been around the other houses in the streets nearby and every single boundary is exactly as you describe.

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Originally Posted by Eric the Half a Bee

Absolutely. That's what we are claiming.

We had another rant from her this morning so we've asked her to provide legal proof the boundary is where she says it is. I've been around the other houses in the streets nearby and every single boundary is exactly as you describe.

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Have a look on this website which (may take a bit to find the right map/scale) should show historical boundaries and compare with the legal version from Land Registry. Last time I used Land Registry online it cost £3 for a copy (pdf) of property and boundaries.

https://maps.nls.uk/os/

That said, scale of the map might mean that your dispute is over the thickness of the line drawn on a map. Didnt work well for a boundary between Israel and Egypt.
Looking at our property boundary, next door appear to have pinched about a foot to build an extension that cuts into our diagonal boundary line. As that extension was built over 30 years ago, before we moved in, nothing we can do about it now. Not that we want to.

Good luck with your neighbour.

Interesting thread. Our neighbours bult up to the boundary. We weren't overjoyed because our own house is only about 75cm from it. They didn't think about overhangs etc but say taht they decided to build the wall on the inner line of the foundation (which was all on their land) to deal with it. When I went to put the fencing back up, it was pretty clear that the back corner of their extension veered over the boundary. God knows how - my guess is that their house wasn't square to the boundary. They insisted that the boundary must have curved to accommodate their extension because it was on their land. Thick as pigshit really, but we are talking about 15cm-20cm here or there. So I let it go, and put a slight kink in the fencing. Which was fine, until I realised it meant that I could no longer get a micro digger down that side of the house.

Oh well. Not worth falling out with them over it, we are both planning to be here for decades. But the lesson I learned is - never let them take down the fence in the first place. That way there can be no doubt.

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Originally Posted by Van Halen

If the extension has been there for over 4 years it’s exempt from planning enforcement action by virtue of section 171B of the Town and County Planning Act 1990. Your neighbour can apply (and automatically be granted providing they can evidence the extension being there for at least 4 years) a lawful development certificate to regularise it.

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Is that the same as making it her land though? Like squatter's rights? I can imagine that there is something that grants the neighbour an easement for the overhanging guttering after a period of time which might be the only point of contention, but Does the provision you cite mean that the land below is legally hers now too?

OP- are there any downpipes, drains etc on that wall?

start drilling some holes in the wall of the extension to put up hanging baskets etc - that'll make them think

I’m just speaking from a town planning (law) perspective. Land ownership is a completely separate matter.

The Council cannot make them knock it down or make alterations to it if it’s been there (without planning permission) more than 4 years.

Any land ownership matters will be between the OP and his neighbour and ultimately for the courts to decide and cost £££. The council will not get involved.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

But if the building was constructed without permissions originally and it encroaches on another persons land?

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Yes. The law is clear.

Land ownership is a separate issue.

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Originally Posted by Optimistic Nick

Is that the same as making it her land though? Like squatter's rights? I can imagine that there is something that grants the neighbour an easement for the overhanging guttering after a period of time which might be the only point of contention, but Does the provision you cite mean that the land below is legally hers now too?

OP- are there any downpipes, drains etc on that wall?

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I think that the law regarding squatters' rights has changed as I looked into claiming a two-metre strip at the bottom of my garden and which belongs to the college behind me. The colleague has no access to the strip as it has built a ten-foot high fence two metres inside its own boundary. However, not have I been tending to that strip for ten years (as it was originally overgrown with a mass of impenetrable brambles) I dug it over at the beginning of lockdown and it has now become a vegetable allotment. However, the research I did seemed to indicate that I can't simply claim it, as would have been possible twenty years ago.

Does the land registry plan show anything? You would think that area would be quite obvious pushing out a foot.

you really need legal advice, seeking the opinion of a property lawyer. your neighbour can't just build on your land, and if they have done so, i'm pretty sure you can have the building removed at their expense.

however, this could prove costly so its best to get the legal position sorted, and then ask your neighbours if they want to buy the land from you rather than have it knocked down.

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Originally Posted by 2b2bdoo

Does the land registry plan show anything? You would think that area would be quite obvious pushing out a foot.

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That won't make any difference. No enforcement action can be taken by the local planning authority as the extension has been in place for longer than the prescribed period under the Town and Country Planning Acts. Sadly there is nothing much the OP can do. However, I'm sure the fact the extension overhangs does not have implications for the boundary which will remain unchanged. If problems with the neighbour persist the OP could try the University of South Wales which runs a free legal advice service and there could well be other free providers of advice elsewhere. Might be worth researching.

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Originally Posted by xsnaggle

That's what I was thinking. If it does not have permission and the builder overstepped the boundary it will have to be demolished!
Or reasonable neighbours could come to a reasonable agreement.

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I reckon the neighbours have cocked up here as well (being kind to them), but it's not beyond the realms of possibility that they did this illegally. Is there anywhere where past planning applications can be viewed?

They may be getting upset about the legal avenue because it costs money, or because they know they're on a loser, or because it may highlight other work.

Very interesting, but not very pleasant, never nice falling out with neighbours. I fell out with neighbours previously because they kept blocking a driveway.

I would have thought deeds would be held somewhere and, yes, get it sorted asap. As soon as someone moves in it will no longer be their responsibility so it gets trickier. Also, this could result in your house having a lower valuation, not exactly fair.

Good luck and keep us posted.