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One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
Religious groups in UK failing children over sex abuse, report says https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58420270
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
William Treseder
oh yes :frown:
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
The world would be a far better place without religion.
We are born
We live our life
We die
We rot in the ground
That just about sums it up
No gods or greater beings involved
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
willo1927
The world would be a far better place without religion.
We are born
We live our life
We die
We rot in the ground
That just about sums it up
No gods or greater beings involved
There are quite a wide variety of religious views to be fair. We mostly hear about the more fundamentalist types.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
Baloo
There are quite a wide variety of religious views to be fair. We mostly hear about the more fundamentalist types.
:thumbup:
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Baloo
There are quite a wide variety of religious views to be fair. We mostly hear about the more fundamentalist types.
And they can shove them where the sun doesn't shine.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
Baloo
There are quite a wide variety of religious views to be fair. We mostly hear about the more fundamentalist types.
If it makes one happy and they believe doing “good” will make them go in to a better place, let them be I say. It’s when they harp on to others about it or get fundamental is the issue for me.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
goats
If it makes one happy and they believe doing “good” will make them go in to a better place, let them be I say. It’s when they harp on to others about it or get fundamental is the issue for me.
Or when they hide things like child abuse because they don't want their imaginary friend to get a bad name. Get rid of religion and we'd evolve as a race.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
willo1927
And they can shove them where the sun doesn't shine.
Hell?
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
willo1927
And they can shove them where the sun doesn't shine.
You’re sounding pretty fundamentalist yourself there. Religious groups like The Quakers accept members who are Non Theist and don’t actually believe in the supernatural or a divine being for instance. They do some great work however around justice, peace building and social action. The world would likely be a bit of a worse place if their beliefs were shoved where the sun don’t shine imo.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
UNDERHILL1927
Or when they hide things like child abuse because they don't want their imaginary friend to get a bad name. Get rid of religion and we'd evolve as a race.
That would be a great thesis for a university student.
I wonder what proportion of child abuse is committed by 'non-religious' people.
I wonder what proportion of child abuse is committed by those with a mental health issue.
I wonder what proportion of child abuse is committed by those who are wealthy / in power.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
Baloo
You’re sounding pretty fundamentalist yourself there. Religious groups like The Quakers accept members who are Non Theist and don’t actually believe in the supernatural or a divine being for instance. They do some great work however around justice, peace building and social action. The world would likely be a bit of a worse place if their beliefs were shoved where the sun don’t shine imo.
:thumbup:
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
I'm not a believer, although I can see the appeal of faith and the collective power of a religion. However, it's wrong to oppose the concept of religion due to some bad eggs.
Many societies have tried to eradicate religion and they are always worse than the ones that were tolerant of it; Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin. Even Hitler oppressed the church.
Religious fundementalism is just as bad if not worse, but religion isn't the problem; an extreme interpretation of it is.
The problem is always an extreme interpretation; whether its national identity, socialism, islam, christianity..whatever.
No doubt loads of truly awful people have hidden behind religion and those religions have helped them hide and do awful acts, but we shouldn't tar the entire concept of religion with that brush.
Just as how for centuries churches have organised and supported housing and food for the poor doesn't mean we overlook them when they do appalling things.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I'm not a believer, although I can see the appeal of faith and the collective power of a religion. However, it's wrong to oppose the concept of religion due to some bad eggs.
Many societies have tried to eradicate religion and they are always worse than the ones that were tolerant of it; Mao, Pol Pot, Stalin. Even Hitler oppressed the church.
Religious fundementalism is just as bad if not worse, but religion isn't the problem; an extreme interpretation of it is.
The problem is always an extreme interpretation; whether its national identity, socialism, islam, christianity..whatever.
No doubt loads of truly awful people have hidden behind religion and those religions have helped them hide and do awful acts, but we shouldn't tar the entire concept of religion with that brush.
Just as how for centuries churches have organised and supported housing and food for the poor doesn't mean we overlook them when they do appalling things.
Hitler may have opposed the church but the roman Catholic popes definitely supported him
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
willo1927
The world would be a far better place without religion.
We are born
We live our life
We die
We rot in the ground
That just about sums it up
No gods or greater beings involved
Aye
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Hitler may have opposed the church but the roman Catholic popes definitely supported him
I think they saw the writing on the wall as much as anything and were pretty gutless in opposition. Which is definitely a criticism of the catholic church, but at that time in europe, atheists were murdering people due to their faith, so its definitely not a story that advocates militant atheism either.
It's all about balance and tolerance really. There's good and bad in everyone, every country, every religion etc etc
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
You don't have to be a person of faith to do good things
That's what annoys me about religious people
They think it's god influencing them to do good things
It's bollocks
You don't have to go to church or be religious to do good things or be kind
You can be a member of the local chess club and still be kind and help the homeless
People are human beings and in general don't do something for nothing
People who go to church and pray do so because they want to get to this place called heaven
They help the poor because they think it will make God think they are good people and he will look after them
Some bloke who is on the dole and gives a quid to a homeless person is every bit as good a person as the couple all dressed up singing in church on a Sunday
My view is there probably isn't a god but if there is I will have done enough to have be let into his paradise
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
JamesWales
I think they saw the writing on the wall as much as anything and were pretty gutless in opposition. Which is definitely a criticism of the catholic church, but at that time in europe, atheists were murdering people due to their faith, so its definitely not a story that advocates militant atheism either.
It's all about balance and tolerance really. There's good and bad in everyone, every country, every religion etc etc
I agree with that
Apart from jacks
All vermin
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
All institutions, religious or not (royal family, media, education, sports clubs, churches and workplaces etc) are often breeding grounds for sexual abuse and sexual misconduct.
The particular issue with religious institutions where this happens is particularly gruelling as they 'pretend' and set themselves up as the 'good' and morally superior than the rest of us.
MANY religious institutions are however leading the way in safeguarding children in their emergency response programs. But I can't tell you how many people, who would define themselves as 'religious', I have investigated for child abuse here in Uganda and other parts of the world using their religion, mission or church as a cover for their behaviour.
However they would probably do it anyway, even without their religious cover, and just find another way to do it.
The thing we need to be better at is tearing organisations apart when they have been found to actively cover stuff up.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
AfricanBluebird
All institutions, religious or not (royal family, media, education, sports clubs, churches and workplaces etc) are often breeding grounds for sexual abuse and sexual misconduct.
The particular issue with religious institutions where this happens is particularly gruelling as they 'pretend' and set themselves up as the 'good' and morally superior than the rest of us.
MANY religious institutions are however leading the way in safeguarding children in their emergency response programs. But I can't tell you how many people, who would define themselves as 'religious', I have investigated for child abuse here in Uganda and other parts of the world using their religion, mission or church as a cover for their behaviour.
However they would probably do it anyway, even without their religious cover, and just find another way to do it.
The thing we need to be better at is tearing organisations apart when they have been found to actively cover stuff up.
The Catholic Church has covered up and provided cover for child abuse for hundreds of years
These safeguarding children departments are laughable , run by the pope
It's like giving a robber your credit card
Religion is archaic and based on fairy tales and fantasy
Science is progress and this is what should be fed to our children , not fake stories about making blind men see and disabled people suddenly being able to walk because the son of God blessed them 🙏
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
You don't have to be a person of faith to do good things
That's what annoys me about religious people
They think it's god influencing them to do good things
It's bollocks
You don't have to go to church or be religious to do good things or be kind
You can be a member of the local chess club and still be kind and help the homeless
People are human beings and in general don't do something for nothing
People who go to church and pray do so because they want to get to this place called heaven
They help the poor because they think it will make God think they are good people and he will look after them
Some bloke who is on the dole and gives a quid to a homeless person is every bit as good a person as the couple all dressed up singing in church on a Sunday
My view is there probably isn't a god but if there is I will have done enough to have be let into his paradise
I reckon empathy and collaboration has probably offered evolutionary advantage so ultimately, whether you're religious or not, it's ultimately rooted in self-interest. Nothing wrong with that of course, we're wired this way though natural selection and it can still provide many people and animals with more meaningful and productive lives. That's not to say of course everybody will behave that way whatever their beliefs.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Aye
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
The Catholic Church has covered up and provided cover for child abuse for hundreds of years
These safeguarding children departments are laughable , run by the pope
It's like giving a robber your credit card
Religion is archaic and based on fairy tales and fantasy
Science is progress and this is what should be fed to our children , not fake stories about making blind men see and disabled people suddenly being able to walk because the son of God blessed them 🙏
I don't disagree Sludge. The catholic church is implicit in 100's of years of cover up.
What I do see is some religious based organisations (not churches) doing some good work in this area. As an example, LWF in Uganda work in refugee communities (about 400000 people) and are one of the best organisations that help protect child, better in fact than some non-religious ones.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
Religion pervades every culture on the Earth. It seems as though were born to do it.
I find Dawkins' ideas on the reasons for religion fairly convincing.
I.e. it is an evolutionary side-effect of a beneficial trait - believing what the elders have told you when you were growing up.
this berry is poisonous, this is the correct way to cook this plant, we don't eat this animal etc etc are easy to see how that is a beneficial trait
this is then twisted and used to control people and wield power by people over the centuries.
That isn't to say that people don't take positives from organised religions today as well.
It can be a way of meeting and making friends, can provide pastoral care to vulnerable people, gives people a mechanism for thoughtfulness and self reflection, helps people form a cohesive cultural identity. Reaching out to the vulnerable with charitable acts etc
I think that this is just people doing good and the religion os providing the framework for that, so the flip side is probably also true - the murdering, discrimination, child abuse, judging and other terrible things that people do in the name of religion aren't because of the religion, but the religion is just the mechanism that is being used by bad people to do them.
as such I don't think religions are inherently good or bad - they are just something we are programmed to do. and perhaps we should approach them with that in mind.
I think we see this trait manifest itself in other ways also - how many non religious people HAVE to eat turkey on christmas day - even if they don't particularly like it and don't eat it any other day of the year.
How many people support the monarchy - not because they think it is the best system for a head of state, but because they feel that that is the way that WE as a nation do things and to change it seems contrary to our traditions (the royal family absolutely play on this btw)
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Hitler may have opposed the church but the roman Catholic popes definitely supported him
Sludge, if you ever get the chance, do some reading up on the resistance groups formed by priests, nuns and the congregation, who fought against Hitler, Franco and Mussolini. It's fascinating stuff and shows that having a puerile outlook on those with faith is a very big mistake to make.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
AfricanBluebird
I don't disagree Sludge. The catholic church is implicit in 100's of years of cover up.
What I do see is some religious based organisations (not churches) doing some good work in this area. As an example, LWF in Uganda work in refugee communities (about 400000 people) and are one of the best organisations that help protect child, better in fact than some non-religious ones.
I agree
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Sludge, if you ever get the chance, do some reading up on the resistance groups formed by priests, nuns and the congregation, who fought against Hitler, Franco and Mussolini. It's fascinating stuff and shows that having a puerile outlook on those with faith is a very big mistake to make.
I am afraid that as the vast majority of roman catholics look to the Vatican and the pope for how they should behave ......which is very odd ......the actions of partisans , small in number against the fascists , is not really good enough to convince me that a lot of religious people are incredibly stupid and need to be treated like kids
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
I am afraid that as the vast majority of roman catholics look to the Vatican and the pope for how they should behave ......which is very odd ......the actions of partisans , small in number against the fascists , is not really good enough to convince me that a lot of religious people are incredibly stupid and need to be treated like kids
Not all Catholic people look to the pope, not all of them agree with everything that is said by him or written in the Bible, or said by the priest etc. It doesn't really work like that. There will always be hard liners, but I'd say that the vast majority aren't that interested in what the pope has to say, especially those in more developed cultures.
In my opinion, your view is very narrow and you're pandering to the reactionary by lumping everyone who has faith into the same category. Big mistake in my opinion. Would you say that all poor people are just lazy, people who suffer with mental health are weak etc? Of course you wouldn't, as that would be generalising, which almost certainly panders to the most extreme amongst us, and as a result, ends In people being persecuted because of a certain belief etc
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
During WW2 the catholic church and priests bravely helped highlight and advocate against the Nazi's Kinder-Euthanasie policy - a policy that was essentially killing disabled children. However, the Catholic 'church' (as an institution) didn't extend that same love or bravery towards the Jews in Germany who were being shipped of to concentration camps - despite being told and informed by their some of their own Priests.
In fact the biggest issue the Catholic Church had with the Nazis was that the Nazis wanted to stop resources being sent to the Catholic church. Incidentally, the Catholic church helped many Nazis flee to south America and other places immediately after the war to escape prosecution.
However we have to separate the 'church' and people. There are many many Catholics and priests who opposed the Nazis and lost their lives for it. In particular the Jesuits. But the Catholic church as an 'institution' and huge numbers of followers went along with the Nazis.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Not all Catholic people look to the pope, not all of them agree with everything that is said by him or written in the Bible, or said by the priest etc. It doesn't really work like that. There will always be hard liners, but I'd say that the vast majority aren't that interested in what the pope has to say, especially those in more developed cultures.
In my opinion, your view is very narrow and you're pandering to the reactionary by lumping everyone who has faith into the same category. Big mistake in my opinion. Would you say that all poor people are just lazy, people who suffer with mental health are weak etc? Of course you wouldn't, as that would be generalising, which almost certainly panders to the most extreme amongst us, and as a result, ends In people being persecuted because of a certain belief etc
Yes it does , that's how these bodies survive . Money and people indoctrination others .
The vast majority of roman catholics look towards the Vatican and the pope for guidance as he is their spiritual leader on earth
They don't practice what they preach but the catholic church is against homosexuality , sex before marriage and abortion .
I am afraid either you are hiding a secret religious leaning or you are not facing reality
The comparison with mental ill health is of course nonsense
People are not taught to be mentally ill , or go every Sunday to a place that helps them to be mentally ill
Mental illness happens
To compare saying something like pull yourself together to a mentally ill person to the fact that roman catholics are brainwashed is ludicrous
Why would I say that mentally ill people are weak or the poor are lazy in the same way that religious people are brainwashed ?
Mentally ill people are ill , poor people are poor
Anybody who goes to church on a Sunday and has a priest read to them the latest directive from his holiness the pope is brainwashed .
We sing cardiff city are the greatest team in football the world has ever seen ......but we don't believe it , its clearly nonsense
I think defending the right for someone to believe in God is up to the individual , if you want to do that then carry on but I am saying religious people are indoctrinated , especially roman catholics and if someone is defending the right of someone to believe in a bloke sitting on a cloud then its 2021 and there are people still waiting for evidence he exists , never mind having people like you tell me I can't generalise about people who are clearly devoted to something that clearly doesn't seem to be there .
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Not all Catholic people look to the pope, not all of them agree with everything that is said by him or written in the Bible, or said by the priest etc. It doesn't really work like that. There will always be hard liners, but I'd say that the vast majority aren't that interested in what the pope has to say, especially those in more developed cultures.
In my opinion, your view is very narrow and you're pandering to the reactionary by lumping everyone who has faith into the same category. Big mistake in my opinion. Would you say that all poor people are just lazy, people who suffer with mental health are weak etc? Of course you wouldn't, as that would be generalising, which almost certainly panders to the most extreme amongst us, and as a result, ends In people being persecuted because of a certain belief etc
I know that mentally illness exists
I know that poverty exists
It's pretty apparent that God is a delusion
Therefore I think it's fair to say religious people are deluded and blindly follow the words of a book taught to them through the generations , like learning your lines
I think that's a pretty fair assumption , if you think that's an unfair generalisation then I am afraid that's the way it is based upon my life experience and the complete and utter lack of evidence that god exists .
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
Yes it does , that's how these bodies survive . Money and people indoctrination others .
The vast majority of roman catholics look towards the Vatican and the pope for guidance as he is their spiritual leader on earth
They don't practice what they preach but the catholic church is against homosexuality , sex before marriage and abortion .
I am afraid either you are hiding a secret religious leaning or you are not facing reality
The comparison with mental ill health is of course nonsense
People are not taught to be mentally ill , or go every Sunday to a place that helps them to be mentally ill
Mental illness happens
To compare saying something like pull yourself together to a mentally ill person to the fact that roman catholics are brainwashed is ludicrous
Why would I say that mentally ill people are weak or the poor are lazy in the same way that religious people are brainwashed ?
Mentally ill people are ill , poor people are poor
Anybody who goes to church on a Sunday and has a priest read to them the latest directive from his holiness the pope is brainwashed .
We sing cardiff city are the greatest team in football the world has ever seen ......but we don't believe it , its clearly nonsense
I think defending the right for someone to believe in God is up to the individual , if you want to do that then carry on but I am saying religious people are indoctrinated , especially roman catholics and if someone is defending the right of someone to believe in a bloke sitting on a cloud then its 2021 and there are people still waiting for evidence he exists , never mind having people like you tell me I can't generalise about people who are clearly devoted to something that clearly doesn't seem to be there .
People aren't taught to be poor either but I understood what he was getting at.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
I know that mentally illness exists
I know that poverty exists
It's pretty apparent that God is a delusion
Therefore I think it's fair to say religious people are deluded and blindly follow the words of a book taught to them through the generations , like learning your lines
I think that's a pretty fair assumption , if you think that's an unfair generalisation then I am afraid that's the way it is based upon my life experience and the complete and utter lack of evidence that god exists .
Fair enough, that's how you see it. I don't agree. I'll leave it now, because these threads just repeat themselves and nobody really listens to anyone elses point of view or even tries to see both sides of the discussion.
One thing i will say, you have no business saying that i may have some secret religious leaning, like you're attempting to out me, or like it's some kind of sordid belief. If i was religious, i'd say so, why wouldn't i?
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
Tuerto
Fair enough, that's how you see it. I don't agree. I'll leave it now, because these threads just repeat themselves and nobody really listens to anyone elses point of view or even tries to see both sides of the discussion.
One thing i will say, you have no business saying that i may have some secret religious leaning, like you're attempting to out me, or like it's some kind of sordid belief. If i was religious, i'd say so, why wouldn't i?
Don't you know he's the darling of ccmb and therefore it is acceptable behaviour according to the ccmb masses when he decides to 'go on a wind up'
You will be labeled a bully if you go against this view. Tread carefully.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
dembethewarrior
Don't you know he's the darling of ccmb and therefore it is acceptable behaviour according to the ccmb masses when he decides to 'go on a wind up'
You will be labeled a bully if you go against this view. Tread carefully.
I'm treading 'out' of this thread :hehe:
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
Tuerto
I'm treading 'out' of this thread :hehe:
Smart move.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
I know that mentally illness exists
I know that poverty exists
It's pretty apparent that God is a delusion
Therefore I think it's fair to say religious people are deluded and blindly follow the words of a book taught to them through the generations , like learning your lines
I think that's a pretty fair assumption , if you think that's an unfair generalisation then I am afraid that's the way it is based upon my life experience and the complete and utter lack of evidence that god exists .
Problem is our life experience is in reality very limited Sludge. It's worth finding-out what those at the more liberal end of the religious spectrum believe as it's certainly not the above. I say that as a card-carrying Humanist.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
Baloo
Problem is our life experience is in reality very limited Sludge. It's worth finding-out what those at the more liberal end of the religious spectrum believe as it's certainly not the above. I say that as a card-carrying Humanist.
And i'm saying it as someone who has no belief in god whatsoever.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SLUDGE FACTORY
I know that mentally illness exists
I know that poverty exists
It's pretty apparent that God is a delusion
Therefore I think it's fair to say religious people are deluded and blindly follow the words of a book taught to them through the generations , like learning your lines
I think that's a pretty fair assumption , if you think that's an unfair generalisation then I am afraid that's the way it is based upon my life experience and the complete and utter lack of evidence that god exists .
You can't make an assumption and try and back it up with a generalisation. Think about what you've just written.
You (we) don't know any of these things. The brain is a system that is continually trying to prove its own existence. We think we are in control of our brains but it's completely the other way around.
Ask yourself this question. Are human beings getting closer and closer to developing conscious and independent AI? If the answer is yes, then ask yourself if it's possible that another life form could have already made simulations populated by conscious beings? If the answer is yes, then where does our existence fit it?
Is the concept of a creator then a delusion?
I'd also recommend reading Sophie's World by Jostein Gaarder.
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Re: One reason why religion is a load of bollox.
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Originally Posted by
Citizen's Nephew
You can't make an assumption and try and back it up with a generalisation. Think about what you've just written.
You (we) don't know any of these things. The brain is a system that is continually trying to prove its own existence. We think we are in control of our brains but it's completely the other way around.
Ask yourself this question. Are human beings getting closer and closer to developing conscious and independent AI? If the answer is yes, then ask yourself if it's possible that another life form could have already made simulations populated by conscious beings? If the answer is yes, then where does our existence fit it?
Is the concept of a creator then a delusion?
I'd also recommend reading Sophie's World by Jostein Gaarder.
You are wasting your time on this one mate :thumbup: